If TOC was built today

[Anthony Gray]

 Say it was built in Nebraska under the same fast and firm conditions with nobody playing the bagpipes.Take away the town and the history.  A few guys with some bucks paid an architect to build a course and this is what the members got.
 
 What would the criticisms be?


 Would it be accepted?


 What would it be ranked?


 

[Jim Sherma]

Too short to be taken seriously. Too many blind shots. Can’t get liability insurance.

[David_Tepper]

"Can’t get liability insurance."

Indeed!

[mike_beene]

If you take away the town and history you have gutted the course. Might as well take the front nine while you are chopping. A course does not end at its boundary. I have heard the Pacific Ocean hypothetical re Pebble. Same answer.

[Niall C]

I've got to think that the biggest criticism it would get is in the numbers ie. not the regulation number of par 3's and par 5's, as well as the fact that it is largely an out and back track with minimal change in direction. All the course analysis guff that some folk cling on to like it's the Holy Grail.

Mike


I'm sure they could produce a perfectly nice backdrop if that was what was bothering you. Frankly for much of TOC the views aren't that wonderful.


Niall

[Sean_A]

The course is plenty long enough for club play.

It would be the same criticisms as now.

First six holes play a very similar distance.

Only two par 3s.

What the hell is going on with the 9th?

Tons of blind bunkers and drive areas.

Why all the double greens?

Why so little elevation change?

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

That's interesting, Sean.
I was going to propose that our collective architectural tastes have become quite refined, and that our appetite is ever growing for members only golf as it was meant to be out in the middle of far-flung Nebraska -- so that a TOC, built today, there, ostensibly as a labour of love, would not only be accepted but immediately very highly ranked too.
That's what I was going to propose.
But I think you might be right instead.

[Sean_A]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

I love TOC, it has to appeal to the most diverse group of people I could imagine I would think as it exists now.

• The home of the Royal & Ancient, iconic clubhouse behind the first tee and 18 green. Huge to have the headquarters for the world of golf (outside US) with such a structure. Almost everyone recognizes this I would think if they remember anything, non golfers included.
• History of the hundreds of years of play.
• Every 5 years the world brings the TOC into our consciousness yet again for hosting The Open.
• The best in the game have won an Open at TOC and replays with nostalgia is unmatched.
• They have kept up with the times as best they could lengthening holes where able. Obviously weather and/or hard fast conditions are the defense.
• The perceived quirk as it was history of the road hole for example. To Dr. Anthony Gray's quirk thread would it be too manufactured today if created?
• The maintenance there is a lab for links golf. They have everything needed and don't care about green grass. They can irrigate but only do so when needed to keep grass alive. They will allow the more invasive grasses to die by not irrigating in the hot summer. I know they do alot of hand watering the high areas as well so as not to over irrigate the low.
• The town ..... do I need to say more?
• It is public and available to all. The every man's course.

I don't think you can separate the course architecture from the course and all that goes with it. However great to try. Some obvious things.

• If private would quickly lose the every man's title.
• If in Nebraska wouldn't be accessible for almost anyone.
• Who would care but real golf nuts, as it is remote. The town adds to the course and is like the heart of the course 1/17/18 with people there watching and walking by.
• Loses the R&A clubhouse and affiliation which is a huge downgrade.

Architecture wise

• I'd like to hear from some of our supers here the differences between the two soils and maintenance practices. Climates would factor as Nebraska is loads warmer in the summer, scorching in some weeks.
• I'd be open to a Lido like recreation as Doak is doing in Sand Valley. Get the lasered mapping of the course and go to work. I would relish it as a layout.
• How it plays would vary due to weather and hundreds of years of settling soil to play mature. However, you have to start somewhere.
• Put it in the ground as a replica, however I would love it as like the headquarters of the PGA or USGA with the clubhouse in the background. If we are going down this path of recreating TOC in the US, why not go all the way and totally rip off the idea in it's entirety.

Great exercise.

[Jeff Schley]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

WOW!  Really?  Inflation is here or they see what Kingsbarns is charging and getting to follow suit.

[Sean_A]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

WOW!  Really?  Inflation is here or they see what Kingsbarns is charging and getting to follow suit.

I don't know, but TOC is yet another course I am highly unlikely to ever play again. Yep, grow the game.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

WOW!  Really?  Inflation is here or they see what Kingsbarns is charging and getting to follow suit.

I don't know, but TOC is yet another course I am highly unlikely to ever play again. Yep, grow the game.

Ciao

Sean,


Two choices:


- Join the lengthy R&A application process (and succeed) or move to St. Andrews.


Which to go for?

[Sean_A]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

WOW!  Really?  Inflation is here or they see what Kingsbarns is charging and getting to follow suit.

I don't know, but TOC is yet another course I am highly unlikely to ever play again. Yep, grow the game.

Ciao

Sean,


Two choices:


- Join the lengthy R&A application process (and succeed) or move to St. Andrews.


Which to go for?

3rd choice...don't play TOC.

I made my bed when I chose North Berwick over a Links Trust pass.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I think you have to answer _why_ the course exists as you posit. If it is a replica of the Old Course, it will be judged as a replica, pure and simple. If we are in a deeper hypothetical where the Old Course doesn't exist then I think the proposition is ridiculous. It simply would not be built like that. The Old Course as it exists is a reflection of its site and thousands of decisions taken over hundreds of years. Do you think sometime in the fifteenth or sixteenth century some fisherman just went out and cut the holes in the rough locations they are today? No -- those must have evolved over a long, long time as the golfers of the day refined their course. Then you have all the work of the nineteenth century. One of the aspects of the Old Course that is never discussed is why the back nine is so much better than the front? It is because the golfers of hundreds of years ago, through extensive trial and error, determined that was the best ground


It is impossible to hypothesise a series of design decisions taken over a period of months that would result in the Old Course as we see it now.

[MCirba]

Even a replica of Heaven would not be heaven.

[Tom_Doak]

 Say it was built in Nebraska under the same fast and firm conditions with nobody playing the bagpipes.Take away the town and the history.  A few guys with some bucks paid an architect to build a course and this is what the members got.
 
 What would the criticisms be?

 Would it be accepted?

 What would it be ranked?

I believe The Old Course is still the greatest course in the world, and the history and the town count for zero in my own evaluation, apart from how the town comes into play on 17 & 18.


Would I still see that if Richard Mandell had just opened it in Nebraska?  I’d like to believe I would, but I don’t know.  That it has only two par-3 holes would immediately command attention - and while 90% of panelist types would downgrade it for that, I’m the outlier, and would just look at all the par-4’s and how compelling they were.  I wouldn’t care too much about the wind orientation, either; that’s only a factor for me when the holes themselves aren’t compelling.


To the question, though, I believe it would take years for the course to be ranked in the top 100.  It would only happen after a few key people sung its praises and showed the average panelist what was so important about it.  The panelists would never, ever figure it out while they were rushing over to get in an emergency nine at Dismal River before dark.   

[Brock Lynch]

Speaking of TOC, the fee jumped from £190 to £270 next year. 

Ciao

That is sad news.


What is next, eliminate the ballot?

[Will Lozier]

Say it was built in Nebraska under the same fast and firm conditions with nobody playing the bagpipes.Take away the town and the history.  A few guys with some bucks paid an architect to build a course and this is what the members got.
 
What would the criticisms be?

OOB all the way around...on the same "side".

[Mike Hendren]

My criticism would likely be that the architect claimed that the site was so authentic that he moved no more than a thimble full of soil. 


Bogey

[Thomas Dai]

Per the annual grievances thread, this thread title needs a bit more detail.
As to replicating TOC on the basis the original thread mentions, well why not if it allows folks who will likely never be able to travel to StA or play TOC to experience something at least akin to the original then good for it. Might even spur others to take up or become involved in the game or even course architecture!
Atb

[David_Tepper]

Isn't there already a "replica" of TOC in Orlando, FL?

https://www.visitflorida.com/travel-ideas/articles/grand-cypress-golf-club/

[Peter Pallotta]

It's a fascinating question:
 
would we be able to 'see' it if we didn't know what we were looking for?
would we be able to 'love it' if we hadn't already been taught to value and appreciate it?
 
if it was built today, for the first time, and without an historical and much-praised antecedent, what would it 'mean'?
Would it mean the beginning of an exciting new era in gca, led by its visionary architect? or would it be an ugly outlier by a besotted amateur, soon to be plowed over for a transformation-new build by a bigger name?
 
Interesting that even Tom D can only 'hope' that he'd be able to 'see' what he hadn't ever before.

(My sense is that TD thinks more highly of The Loop than even many of his loyal/devoted fans do, what with their 6s and 7s: good scores, yes, but not the extravagant and lavish praise that many of the best new courses get. And yet, has he ever built anything closer to the ethos and aesthetics and specific-kind-of-strategic-yet-random-playability of The Old Course?)   

[Anthony Gray]

Isn't there already a "replica" of TOC in Orlando, FL?

https://www.visitflorida.com/travel-ideas/articles/grand-cypress-golf-club/

 Played it but it’s difficult to fit your senses since it does not play fast and firm.

[Anthony Gray]

 Is there OB right on the front 9?

[Anthony Gray]

 Any 18 hole modern courses with only two par 3s and two par 5s ?