Courses with permanent SubAir / PrecisionAire units installed for greens

[Jeff Schley]

I was educating myself on SubAir system as a friend who is at a private club is considering expanding their permanent units. He mentioned their green committee (or sales committee depending on how you look at it) says that in addition to ANGC, that Pebble Beach and Winged Foot have the system.

There are portable units I know, but how many courses have all the greens with a permanent vault for a SubAir system?  Or maybe even the majority of greens, as my understanding is that some courses only have a few on greens that don't drain as well due to location in relation to drainage. Not sure where to draw the line, for some or all? Refrence for most is the company literature:   https://subairsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SubAir-Golf-Current-Installations-2021.pdf


HOLY Shishkabobs, I found PrecisionAire is a competitor to SubAir and here are there installs.  FYI Steve, I see Baltursol apparently uses this one.  BTW check out the HUGE amount of digging and basically tornado shelters needed to house all the equipment per green?  Do you really need one of these for each green?

https://www.precisionusa.com/pdf/PrecisionAire_Web_GIS_Presentation_2021.pdf

BTW I'm writing to the company for an explanation as they list dozens of courses as "references", so does this mean they have the system? This install has got to cost a fortune!
Curious..... both companies are claiming Alotian GC?

PrecisionAire

Alotian GC, AR

Anne Arundel Manor, MD

Baltursol GC, NJ

Bel-Air CC, CA

Caves Valley GC, MD

Merion GC, PA

Mirabel GC, AZ

Muirfield Village GC, OH

Oakland Hills, OH

Southern Hills CC, OK

TPC Sawgrass, FL

Vallhalla GC, KY

Vaquero Club, TX

Wee Burn CC, CT

US - SubAir
 

Alotian Club, AR (w/ TurfWatch & Hydronics)

Augusta National GC, GA

Bellerive CC, MO

Brooke Hollow GC, TX (w/ TurfWatch & Hydronics)

Capital City Club/Brookhaven, GA

Champions Point, IN

Charlotte CC, NC

Colonial CC, TX

Congressional CC, MD (w/ TurfWatch)

Covered Bridge GC, IN

Dallas CC, TX

Dallas National GC, TX

East Lake GC, GA (w/ TurfWatch)

Fallen Oak GC, MS

Golf Club of Tennessee, TN

Heritage Hunt GC, VA

Lonnie Poole/NC State, NC

Mountain Top GC, NC

Myers Park CC, NC

Northwood Club, TV

Payne's Valley GC, MO (w/ Hydronics)

Pebble Beach GC, CA

Pine Valley GC, NJ

Princess Anne CC, VA (w/ TurfWatch)

Quail Hollow CC, NC

Reynolds Plantation, GA

River Towne CC, SC

Rock Barn CC, NC

Royal Oaks CC, TX

Sage Valley GC, SC

Sebonack GC, NY (w/ HMI Controls)

Shadown Creek GC, NV

Spyglass Hill GC, CA (17th hole)

Texas A&M University, TX

The River Club, GA

The Standard Club, GA

TPC Potomac at Avenel Farms, MD

Vaquero GC, TX

Wade Hampton GC, NC

Wellesley CC, MA

Willow Oaks CC, VA

Winged Foot GC, NY

International - SubAir

Adare Manor GC, Ireland

Anyang GC, South Korea

Camp John Hay GC, Phillippines

Clearwater Bay CC, Hong Kong

DLF Golf CC, India

Dragon Lake GC, China

Ferrum Club, South Korea

Gleneagles Centenary Course, Scotland

Golf Club de Geneve, Switzerland

Island CC, South Korea

Jack Nicklause GC Korea, South Korea

Jade Palace GC, South Korea

Le Golf Vidauban, France

Leopard Creek CC, South Africa

Loch Lomond GC, Scotland

Miklagard Golf, Norway

Oslo GC, Norway

Pudong Tomson GC, China

Rosedale GC, Canada

Royal Auckland and Grange GC, New Zealand (w/ TurfWatch)

Sanyosoo, South Korea

Sentosa GC, Sinapore (w/ TurfWatch)

Singapore CC, Singapore (w/ TurfWatch)

South Cape GC, South Korea

The Club at Nine Bridges, South Korea

Trinity GC, South Korea

Wentworth GC, UK

[Steve Lapper]

Baltusrol does now.

[John Kavanaugh]

I’ve seen SubAir abandoned and replaced with above ground fans.

[Philip Gordillo]

Fallen Oak in MS has them.  Course was developed by the Beau Rivage Casino.  Consequently, budget was not an issue. 

[Jim Hoak]

We put it in all greens in the Brook Hollow, Dallas, redo.  Hard to have good bentgrass greens in Texas in the summer without them.

[John Emerson]

Covered Bridge and Champions Pointe GC in indiana. There are many courses with subair systems that you’d never know because they don’t use them. Put me down as one who thinks they are a massive waste of money!

[Jeff Schley]

Ok well I guess looking on their website would have helped!
Large number and will add to the list. Assume these are the permanent version.

https://subairsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SubAir-Golf-Current-Installations-2021.pdf

[Jeff Schley]

Also it appears that there is a correlation between sandcapping fairways and having SubAir system. Perhaps those with SubAir greens also were sandcapped? Seems high on first glance.

[Matt_Cohn]

I see Spyglass on the SubAir list. I’m fairly certain that one hole on Spyglass, 17, has it. There is an air vent a few yards off the green since they rebuilt it two years ago, and none of the other holes have that.

[Jeff Schley]

I see Spyglass on the SubAir list. I’m fairly certain that one hole on Spyglass, 17, has it. There is an air vent a few yards off the green since they rebuilt it two years ago, and none of the other holes have that.

Matt very astute and found an article that gives the details.
https://www.pebblebeach.com/insidepebblebeach/what-to-know-about-the-renovated-17th-green-at-spyglass-hill/

[jeffwarne]

I see the makings of at least two lists.


1.Top 100 without sub air
2.Worst course with sub air(extra points for concrete bunker liners)

[Jeff Schley]

1.Top 100 without sub air

Jeff you mean it's possible?

[Tom_Doak]

Sebonack did not have SubAir when we built it.  It came up at a big dinner early in the job and I said I wouldn’t be involved further if they went that route.


I don’t remember them doing precision aire vaults for Bel Air, either, but I might have missed them somehow.


The only project where I signed off on the installation was our course in China, where they spent all that $$$ on a course that never opened.

[Jesse Kodadek]

https://www.precisionusa.com/pdf/PrecisionAire_Web_GIS_Presentation_2021.pdf

The Youtube link embedded in this PDF of the hydronic heating/cooling installed under the greens at Southern Hills is absolutely wild. If someone did something like this--without installing any insulation underneath--on a residential or commercial structure, you'd say they were insane. 

[Kevin Stark]

Victoria National had SubAir installed when built. I'm surprised they aren't listed on the SubAir site today. Was it removed?


https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcnew/article/2000may30.pdf

[Adam Lawrence]

I remember seeing the SubAir units in operation at Vidauban in France. Those babies are LOUD. It sounded like a jet plane taking off behind each green.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think Saruman the White may have invented the system, with Sauron's help, and had a few of them installed in that underground forge at Isengard. If you listen carefully you'll hear them in the background, just when that first Uruk-hai comes out of the mud.

[Jim Hoak]

I'm curious to ask those who oppose the use of SubAir what they do with greens in hot, humid areas?  What I have seen are large fans around greens to get the air moving, and these fans are unsightly and noisy.  Is there any other alternative besides fans?  And are SubAir systems really worse than fans?

[John Emerson]

I'm curious to ask those who oppose the use of SubAir what they do with greens in hot, humid areas?  What I have seen are large fans around greens to get the air moving, and these fans are unsightly and noisy.  Is there any other alternative besides fans?  And are SubAir systems really worse than fans?

If you have a well built sand based modified root zone there is absolutely no reason have a subair system.  Sand root zones drain at break neck speeds already.  Drying out the root zone is a typical argument, but that is the exact reason one builds a sand root zone….to dry the root zone quickly.  This is already happening with sand.  The only place I see where it may make sense is at a place like ANGC where a tournament is held at the same time and place yearly and they want to change the water status of a green immediately after a 100 year rain event. Even then I can’t think of a justification to install it.  I can think of maybe a half dozen courses I know that have these systems and have not once ever used them. 

[Peter Pallotta]

For my part, Jim, no offence intended: I don't know how you'd otherwise maintain greens in that climate, during the summers.
But the concept/idea/system as a whole does seem antithetical to the history and roots and ethos of the game -- to 'play the course as you find it, and the ball as it lies', outside, on a field of play that 'nature' has provided and that rules the day.
It has 'practical' value, no doubt, but as a 'principle' I can't say that I'd be anxious to see it embraced more widely.

[Tim Martin]

I’m at a loss why adding a system that can aid surface drainage and as a result the playing experience is counter to the spirit of the game. Assuming the club that chooses Sub-Air has the resources financially and the membership is on board then won’t conditions improve when it’s used? New technologies employed in building and maintaining golf courses are myriad since Old Tom was whacking it around and although I agree that it’s very expensive it’s just another example of same. It’s easy to knock the price and perceived extravagance but the result rules the day.

[Jim Hoak]

I still get back to the horrible fans that are used at many courses in the South in the summer.  Who wants to defend them as better--and more traditional--than SubAir?

[Mike_Trenham]

Pine Valley is listed as a client of SubAir.  I am curious about where it may be employed on the property as my understanding is the greens have not been rebuilt (modified yes but not rebuilt).

[Jaeger Kovich]

I'm curious to ask those who oppose the use of SubAir what they do with greens in hot, humid areas?  What I have seen are large fans around greens to get the air moving, and these fans are unsightly and noisy.  Is there any other alternative besides fans?  And are SubAir systems really worse than fans?

I think the real question for courses in these areas is what grass type are you using? And if you are putting this equipment which dries, cools and warms in because you want bent grass where it doesn’t perform great in the summer then I can see the questioning the sub air or precision air v regrassing to an ultradwarf.


Also digging up original greens for any reason should always be questioned very strongly no matter what.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm curious to ask those who oppose the use of SubAir what they do with greens in hot, humid areas?  What I have seen are large fans around greens to get the air moving, and these fans are unsightly and noisy.  Is there any other alternative besides fans?  And are SubAir systems really worse than fans?

Jim:


If you want bentgrass greens rolling at 11 or 12 year round in places like Tulsa and Dallas and Augusta*, then I can see the logic for these systems.  I’m not sure those are the right priorities, but I understand that members would disagree.


What bothers me is that they’re also trying to sell it in Southampton, NY, where you and I could grow grass, and telling you that you have to give your superintendent all the latest tools at his disposal to make the grass perfect.  They sell it as the solution to wet climates, to dry climates, to places with frost issues, etc etc. 


They make it seem like every course needs it, at places that are right now doing just fine without it.  We’re your greens at Brook Hollow not really good before this installation?


* and of course, it was invented at Augusta National, which is closed the entire summer when the grass might be stressed out, and where they are constantly tearing up holes anyway.