“Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”

[Tom_Doak]

Picking up on a comment by Ally Macintosh in a different thread, my title is a quote from one of my contributors to The Confidential Guide, who also felt that links golf was generally superior to inland golf.


He did not go as far as Ally, though, in thinking that ALL links golf was superior to ANY inland golf.


I did agree with the sentiment of the quote - the quality of golf is enhanced by the conditions provided on most links.  But I am also a believer in the Big World Theory, and more practically, automatically rating all links courses so highly would just leave less scope to make distinctions between them.


In short, if you think about confining this to the UK, I’d prefer to get back to Sunningdale again ahead of a lot of links courses.  And there are a bunch of inland courses in the rest of the world that are as good as Sunningdale.  Vive la difference!

[Kyle Harris]

How much of this statement is due to the scarcity of such sites?

[mike_malone]

Since your scale is measured in miles worth traveling then most links courses get compared to others in the area. Only a few are worth getting on a plane for.


I would travel 200 miles to play North Berwick but only play Leven when in the area.

[Tom_Doak]

How much of this statement is due to the scarcity of such sites?

Well, scarcity is a matter of perspective, which is partly my point.  In the few regions where there are links courses, there are a bunch of them, so you have to start comparing them against one another.  So, would something like Gullane #2 be more special if it was in Florida?  Of course.  But that’s impossible.

[Tom_Doak]

Since your scale is measured in miles worth traveling then most links courses get compared to others in the area. Only a few are worth getting on a plane for.


I would travel 200 miles to play North Berwick but only play Leven when in the area.

Correct.  Also, I might travel 200 miles to play Leven as someone who lives in Michigan, but it is more than 200 miles away, so that’s not relevant to its rating!

[Jeff Schley]

How much of this statement is due to the scarcity of such sites?

Well, scarcity is a matter of perspective, which is partly my point.  In the few regions where there are links courses, there are a bunch of them, so you have to start comparing them against one another.  So, would something like Gullane #2 be more special if it was in Florida?  Of course.  But that’s impossible.

I think this also has an opposite effect for clusters of great golf. Bandon for example. If those courses were scattered around the coast or different countries even I think we would see the elevation of all those sans Pacific Dunes probably. I really, really like Sunningdale New and take that and put it 30 miles away from Sunningdale Old and call it Royal XYZ I think it climbs the rankings from where it is.

[Thomas Dai]

I don't have my copy to hand but I'm curious to know which UK links are noted as a DS 5 or below in the Confidential Guide?
atb

[Tom_Doak]

I don't have my copy to hand but I'm curious to know which UK links are noted as a DS 5 or below in the Confidential Guide?
atb

There are many, nearly all of which were rated based on my one visit back in 1982-83.  When I go back and sample them individually, like playing Kilspindie a couple of years ago, I think to myself, how did I have this rated so low?  But it's low because my first visit was on the backs of St. Andrews and Dornoch and Cruden Bay and North Berwick and Muirfield, and it is well below them.  But I would give it a 6 now if it was easy to change!

[Ira Fishman]

There are several inland courses that I think are superior in terms of architecture, but if I had to choose between them and playing a solid links course (Brora and Elie come to mind) every day, I would choose the links course. That certainly is the spirit in which I took Ally’s and Ran’s (I think) quotes.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean and others, on the original thread and here, make the parkland-linksland distinction. But I thought Ally was making the architecture-not architecture distinction: how you can have a great design for golf without design. It took the hiding the hand of man idea to a whole other level, ie isn't it best -- isn't the golf the best of all -- when there is nothing to hide?

(I think Ran knows this: that the hidden is the most sublime when it's not hiding anything. That's why, when he has to put Pine Valley at #1 -- a course with more 'architecture' than you can shake a stick at -- he justifies it by saying 'Pine Valley's only benchmark is itself'. It's a clever line.)

[Kalen Braley]

Looking at the DS, this seems like the key differentiator for a DS 6:  A very good course

I guess its a simple question, are there any links courses that are only "well above average" as defined by a DS 5, or are they all the former?

I don't have regular access to very many links, but the one I played that might be such is Pacific Grove.  Back 9 is at least a 7, but the front 9 a 3 at most.  Averages out to a 5.

[Thomas Dai]

Let’s do a wee listing starting in the north of the Scottish mainland and working south along the east coast ..
Reay
Wick
Brora
Golspie
Dornoch Championship
Dornoch Struie
Skibo
Tain
Portmahomac
Fortrose and Rosemarkie
….
It could be nitpicked that one or two might not be strictly links but folks should get the idea.
Question is, which are DS 6 and above, which are DS 5 and below?
Just asking.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Thomas:


Below are the ratings from the book.  They seem pretty harsh, especially toward Golspie, while making clear that I do not think long about stopping at Golspie on my way from Dornoch to Brora and back.  I know there is one poster in particular here who loves Golspie, and to each his own.





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Let’s do a wee listing starting in the north of the Scottish mainland and working south along the east coast ..
Reay  NR
Wick  NR
Brora 7776
Golspie 4-34
Dornoch Championship 10 9 10 10
Dornoch Struie 3-2-
Skibo 574-
Tain 5-45
Portmahomac  NR, I have seen since the book, probably a 4 from me
Fortrose and Rosemarkie 4---

[Ira Fishman]

I know of at least two posters who have a very high opinion of Golspie. I am one of them.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I think in the UK, the description for DS5 using the phrase "well above average", could work against many links courses.

For example, in Scotland especially where links are a dime a dozen, there are probably several courses that many only consider "average" when you compare them against other local links courses. But those same courses would likely fair much much better if comparing it to the average crap-cake muni in the US...

Which sort of begs the question, how do you normalize for a UK DS 5, vs a US DS 5?

[Tom_Doak]

I know of at least two posters who have a very high opinion of Golspie. I am one of them.

Ira

Notice I posted three votes on Golspie, not just my own.      Ran was the one who abstained [not having seen it as of 2014].

[Ira Fishman]

I know of at least two posters who have a very high opinion of Golspie. I am one of them.

Ira

Notice I posted three votes on Golspie, not just my own.      Ran was the one who abstained [not having seen it as of 2014].

I know you did. I disagree with all of you!

[Duncan Cheslett]

“Every links course is at least a 6.”


Clearly whoever stated that has never visited Leasowe, situated between Hoylake and Wallasey.


It’s a genuine links course but a 2 at best. I’ve played the front nine on two occasions but couldn’t bring myself to continue either time!

[Sean_A]

Thomas:

Below are the ratings from the book.  They seem pretty harsh, especially toward Golspie, while making clear that I do not think long about stopping at Golspie on my way from Dornoch to Brora and back.  I know there is one poster in particular here who loves Golspie, and to each his own.

Let’s do a wee listing starting in the north of the Scottish mainland and working south along the east coast ..
Reay  NR
Wick  NR
Brora 7776
Golspie 4-34
Dornoch Championship 10 9 10 10
Dornoch Struie 3-2-
Skibo 574-
Tain 5-45
Portmahomac  NR, I have seen since the book, probably a 4 from me
Fortrose and Rosemarkie 4---

Two things stand out on CG ratings. Across the board Tain better than Golspie. Across the board Brora better than Skibo.

Ciao

[JohnVDB]

I’ve played Wick and would be hard pressed to say it was more than a 4.  The front nine is really nothing, although the back is better.


Portmahomac is a lot of fun and suffers from being short.  A 4 is probably all it can get based on the length, although I really like playing it.


I prefer Tain to Golspie, but I can see why others feel the other way.  I think you’ll see the Struie improving greatly in the next few years based on what I’ve been told are the plans.


I haven’t been to Reay, Skibo or Fortrose so nothing to say about them, although I’ve heard good reports on Reay from a good player who grew up there.

[Michael Whitaker]

“Picking up on a comment by Ally Macintosh in a different thread”

What thread? Can’t find it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael, it's the 'surprises' thread, and Ally's is response #2
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70444.0.html

[Mark_Fine]

I am asked constantly what my favorite golf course is and I always say I don't know but my favorite courses to play are links.  I think I can honestly say I have never played a links course I didn't enjoy which will qualify every one of them as at least a 6. 

[Stewart Abramson]

I think I can honestly say I have never played a links course I didn't enjoy which will qualify every one of them as at least a 6.

I've also never played a links I didn't enjoy, but I can't say I'd rate all of them a six (or more). Maybe I'm just too easily made happy on a golf course as I like lots of courses that I'd give a lower score to, including some links.


Not directed to Mark... I think we need to be precise in our comparisons as to whether the query is regarding links vs inland or links vs parkland. There are a lot of inland courses that aren't really parkland that I'd prefer to play (and give a higher Doak Scale score) than a number of links. Many English heaths and U.S. courses like Garden City, Ballyneal, PH #2, Mid Pines, Tobacco Road, just to name a few. Perhaps it's because they play "linksy" in some respects.

[Mark_Fine]

Look at Tom’s definition of a 6.  Being American we don’t get to play too many links courses in the U.S.  I remember a trip to Scotland one time and my buddy wanted to play Loch Lomand which we did.  Great course but I would have preferred to play a links that was just a 6 


It is such a different game.  I call it real golf