Curving the Ball

[Ira Fishman]

Modern equipment has made it more difficult to move the ball in either direction. Have Modern architects reconciled themselves to that fact and thought less about fades and draws in designing holes? Or have they leaned in to it to reward such shots?


The movement toward width seems to downplay being able to curve the ball, but that may be too superficial a viewpoint.


Are there examples of holes on Modern courses that demand or at least reward being able to move the ball?


Ira

[Luke Sutton]

Sawgrass

[John Kavanaugh]

I've played over 50 years and even with my decreased swings speeds I can still work the ball both ways just like always. My argument would be that it is actually a more controlled bend than in the past.


I'd love to know who started this rumor and why.

[Ira Fishman]

Luke,


I have not played Sawgrass but I thought of Dye too based on Blackwolf Run River.


John,


I should have noted the exception for Bubba Watson and you.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Surely the courses that most require you to regularly bend the ball and to use flair and feel are very firm golf courses with a share of grade level greens that are open on one side.


i.e. links courses.

[Steve Lang]

   Didn't Hogan advise to play a draw to a back pin and fade to a short one?  That's what I was taught, so at least on approach shots, every green is another opportunity to curve the ball...

[Thomas Dai]

Softer green conditioning has reduced the need to work the ball into the wind with the objective of landing shots softly on greens. Same likely with fairway conditioning.
Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

You know how actually 6300 yards is enough for most of us? Well, that's the exact same for not curving shots at all. And architects know it, they just don't tell us. You build something looking like 6800 yards and as if you need to be Hogan but plays 6100 yards and just kind of straight and you're a hero!

[Garland Bayley]

Harbour Town

Pete has stated that he designed to make it best to curve it one way off the tee, and the other way approaching the green.

As for JK turning it both ways still, but it is more controlled now, the ball spins less now. Therefore, the side spin component is less, and one would think more "controlled".

[Tom_Doak]

I can't imagine designing a course that doesn't reward the player who can curve the ball.  It is the ultimate expression of knowing your golf swing and applying it to the land -- using 3-D to combat 3-D, instead of demanding everything be dumbed down to 2-D.


I walked the practice rounds at Memorial Park with several of the older players in the field, who grew up learning to play those shots.  One of them tried to hit a high draw into the par-3 7th, and came up short, and I thanked him for at least trying to hit a golf shot.  He laughed . . . and then he and his caddie spent the next two holes talking about how frustrating it was that the modern ball does not reward shotmaking.  He said the low-spin ball tends to "fall out of the sky" when you try to hit a draw as the golf course suggests, and he knows he shouldn't try now, but he sure wished they would tweak the equipment rules to bring back the curve.


Note that I am not saying a course should REQUIRE you to curve the ball by crowding the line of flight with trees . . . just that you should be rewarded in places for doing it successfully.  The lack of side-to-side tilted greens on modern courses has been a big culprit in this skill going away.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think the ability to shape your shots is as relevant today as it has ever been.
Play any of Tom Doaks courses and its value is very clear.
I feel the same about all of the current top archies...Mike DV's top two Kinglsey and Wickham are both perfect examples of where shot shaping is advantageous.


All of the C&C course I have played the same, probably never more so than my recent Trinity Forest in Dallas.


That is not to say that all of the courses cannot be played with a straight ball, as I believe EVERY course can be.


I am a rather straight ball hitter and my go to shot mentally is a straight ball flight, but on a really top notch well designed course,  that straight shot first choice is certainly more tested.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I can't imagine designing a course that doesn't reward the player who can curve the ball.  It is the ultimate expression of knowing your golf swing and applying it to the land -- using 3-D to combat 3-D, instead of demanding everything be dumbed down to 2-D.


I walked the practice rounds at Memorial Park with several of the older players in the field, who grew up learning to play those shots.  One of them tried to hit a high draw into the par-3 7th, and came up short, and I thanked him for at least trying to hit a golf shot.  He laughed . . . and then he and his caddie spent the next two holes talking about how frustrating it was that the modern ball does not reward shotmaking.  He said the low-spin ball tends to "fall out of the sky" when you try to hit a draw as the golf course suggests, and he knows he shouldn't try now, but he sure wished they would tweak the equipment rules to bring back the curve.


Note that I am not saying a course should REQUIRE you to curve the ball by crowding the line of flight with trees . . . just that you should be rewarded in places for doing it successfully.  The lack of side-to-side tilted greens on modern courses has been a big culprit in this skill going away.

I was typing at the same time that Tom was posting this.
A perfect example is the one he quotes #7 at Memorial.
A great Redan hole, into which I tried to play two nice little draws into and was rewarded for that shot choice.
There are MANY such choices at Memorial, which is one of the things that make it such a fun course to play.

[Padraig Dooley]

As I regularly watch golfers hitting 60,70 and 80 yard slices, I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that modern equipment makes it harder to curve the ball, all golfers have no problem hitting big curves, most unintentionally it has to be said.

[Rob Marshall]

  Didn't Hogan advise to play a draw to a back pin and fade to a short one?  That's what I was taught, so at least on approach shots, every green is another opportunity to curve the ball...

Ken Venturi taught John Cook to go high to a front pin and low to a back pin.

[Ally Mcintosh]

As I regularly watch golfers hitting 60,70 and 80 yard slices, I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that modern equipment makes it harder to curve the ball, all golfers have no problem hitting big curves, most unintentionally it has to be said.

My 16 year old has just started getting interested this year. Looks like he has a very fast swing speed. Left to right dispersion must be about 200 yards on the range…. Won’t take him on to the course as it will demoralise him no end! He’d give up.

[JESII]

I wonder which course, classic, modern, whatever...rewards a controlled curving shot the most.


Would it be the alleged "second shot" courses?


I've heard Muirfield values great iron play as much as any.


Of those I've seen, Seminole stands out because of what happens to the ball after it lands.

[John Kavanaugh]

Courses without an aggressive tree removal program will always require a more diverse set of shot shapes. Kind makes them my favorites.


As my swing speed decreases the high shot option just isn't there. Left, right or low is just about it. Not to mention the old joke about how I used to hit it over that same tree 30 years ago.


I will also say hitting a hooded head high seven iron hook 160 yds is a damn bit easier with modern clubs than it was with a corresponding club from the balata era.

[Ronald Montesano]

The only thing I love more than following a John Kavanaugh post on a thread ... is a straight golf shot.


On infrequent occasions, I tarantella my way from one side to the other, or the other way round, but the essentially-straight ball has always been my life in lots.

[Steve Lang]

The only thing I love more than following a John Kavanaugh post on a thread ... is a straight golf shot.


On infrequent occasions, I tarantella my way from one side to the other, or the other way round, but the essentially-straight ball has always been my life in lots.

Even in the wind?

[Peter Pallotta]

A while ago I gave up my beloved 1999-2001 Hogan Apex MBs, with the Apex 4 shafts. I was never really a good enough golfer to be playing with them, but I'd figured out a few things over time and they worked just fine for me -- besides being lovely to look at and reminding me of the past. But with less playing and more age, I had to let them go, and I replaced them with a set of Ping G10s, you know, the ones from back around 2008. I like them very much -- but I've had to say goodbye forever to 'curving the ball'. You can be an average golfer and draw and fade a Hogan blade, but you've got to be a really good golfer to draw and fade a Ping cavity back that just wants to fly high and straight!

[Garland Bayley]

As I regularly watch golfers hitting 60,70 and 80 yard slices, I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that modern equipment makes it harder to curve the ball, all golfers have no problem hitting big curves, most unintentionally it has to be said.

At least they aren't curving around and coming back at you like balata did.

[JMEvensky]

Peter, just have the Hogans re-shafted with something softer and lighter. They'll be fun to play again.

[Ronald Montesano]

Steve Lang: Even in the wind! I am well-versed in hitting low shots and medium shots, that stay under or bore through, the zephyrs.

[jeffwarne]

I can't imagine designing a course that doesn't reward the player who can curve the ball.  It is the ultimate expression of knowing your golf swing and applying it to the land -- using 3-D to combat 3-D, instead of demanding everything be dumbed down to 2-D.


I walked the practice rounds at Memorial Park with several of the older players in the field, who grew up learning to play those shots.  One of them tried to hit a high draw into the par-3 7th, and came up short, and I thanked him for at least trying to hit a golf shot.  He laughed . . . and then he and his caddie spent the next two holes talking about how frustrating it was that the modern ball does not reward shotmaking.  He said the low-spin ball tends to "fall out of the sky" when you try to hit a draw as the golf course suggests, and he knows he shouldn't try now, but he sure wished they would tweak the equipment rules to bring back the curve.


Note that I am not saying a course should REQUIRE you to curve the ball by crowding the line of flight with trees . . . just that you should be rewarded in places for doing it successfully.  The lack of side-to-side tilted greens on modern courses has been a big culprit in this skill going away.

Great post but the highlight was this
"The lack of side-to-side tilted greens on modern courses has been a big culprit in this skill going away"


If the courses chosen for elite player events were chosen/designed and/or prepared to reward shotmaking, you MIGHT see a ball developed/chosen by elites to suit this.
For now, they are rewarded for the shortest shot in, and choose a multilayer ball that promotes that, with the added benefit of enough spin off the wedges, and proximity to the green in two shots on par 5's
At the moment though,programs such as DECADE are demonstrating to players that their best bet is one dimensional stock ball flight due to the one dimensional architecture and demands of the the courses they compete on most often.


I know of one successful PGA Tour player who absolutely hates Palmetto for just this reason, as stock shots often don't fare as well there as they do elsewhere.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


Thanks for the support.  You are correct that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy; PGA Tour venues and setups do not reward shotmaking, to the point that a lot of players can’t handle anything else.  That’s why Koepka finds majors not only more interesting but also easier to win - because all the guys who just want to play the holes the same way all four days are going to get punished for their lazy thinking on an interesting course.


It’s weird to me because all these guys idolize Tiger, and it’s clear from his instructional videos that Tiger is almost never trying to just play a straight, stock shot.  He is confident in his ability to play many trajectories and he knows that’s an advantage.  Can’t say I have gotten that sense out of his design work to date, though.