“It Will Get The Course Closer to Par 72”

[Sean_A]

I would like bogey score reintroduced and par re-evaluated. I suspect that if bogey score was more prevalent then odd length holes would be more prevalent. I want to see 225ish to 300ish and 440ish to 470ish ranges used more often as daily tee yardages.

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

Duncan/Richard - What do you know about the origins of the bogey card?


I've come across some (disdainful) Scottish accounts circa 1890 claiming that it was an English invention.


Bob

This is a pretty good explanation.


[size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/origins-bogey-in-golf/[/size]

I always wondered if there was a golf angle to the theme from Bridge On The River Kwai.

[Thomas Dai]

As a slight tangent, I’d like to see 2 Stroke Indexes for each hole in the U.K.
The current system used by most U.K. courses is based on matchplay where the SI is effected by balancing the 9’s etc which becomes a bit of a mockery when most UK club competition golf these days, singles/pairs/team, appears to be stableford.
So, 1 SI for matchplay and a separate SI for stableford.
I think some enlightened clubs do this already, but not many.
Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - I've read you noting the possible architectural impact of a new bogey score before, but only fully understood it this time around. Very good.

Jeff - an aside: if you want to be reminded of how great an actor Alec Guinness was, watch two films back to back - Bridge and then Tunes of Glory, where he plays a troubled commander of a Scottish regiment after WWII. (Btw, the composer for Bridge also wrote the music for Tunes) .

[JMEvensky]

Peter, I thought I was pretty familiar with AG's work but didn't know of Tunes Of Glory. I'll watch it--thanks.

[Jeff Schley]

I would like bogey score reintroduced and par re-evaluated. I suspect that if bogey score was more prevalent then odd length holes would be more prevalent. I want to see 225ish to 300ish and 440ish to 470ish ranges used more often as daily tee yardages.

Ciao

Sean par 4's you mean playing 225-300 or par 3's ?

[Sean_A]

I would like bogey score reintroduced and par re-evaluated. I suspect that if bogey score was more prevalent then odd length holes would be more prevalent. I want to see 225ish to 300ish and 440ish to 470ish ranges used more often as daily tee yardages.

Ciao

Sean par 4's you mean playing 225-300 or par 3's ?

I don't care about what we call a hole, but the idea of not building a 250 yard daily hole because it would be seen as monster 3 is crazy. The point about bogey score is these holes can be built as bogey 4s.

Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

From the website of the Gosport and Stokes Bay GC - formerly the United Services GC (with thanks to my friend Mike Morrison)
The original nine-hole course of 1885 was laid out on Haslar Common and the glacis of Fort Moncton. It was on this course that the term “bogey” originated. In 1890 Mr H. Rotherham of the Coventry Golf Club inaugurated the basic idea of playing against “ground score”, which was the number of strokes a golfer playing steady golf would be expected to take on each hole. Other clubs soon followed this example.
 
 In 1892 the Secretary of the Great Yarmouth Golf Club came to Haslar and played at the United Services Golf Club. He introduced the BogeyMan idea to the Honourable Secretary and they worked out a ground score for the course. The actual term Bogeyman originated from a popular tune of the era.
 
 When the two secretaries were about to tee-off, one stated that as the club was an officers’ club, and every member had a rank, then the new invisible member, who never played a bad shot, must surely be a Colonel. Consequently this was how the name Colonel Bogey came into existence.

[Niall C]

Richard

Many thanks for posting that. I recall reading something similar or perhaps from something that Michael wrote. Whatever, the interesting thing for me is that the definition of bogey in the story isn't the same as one over par that we now take bogey to mean.

IIRC the definition of par came about when Young Tommy was asked at one of the Prestwick Opens what you should score going round Prestwick if you didn't miss a shot. Can't recall if it was Young Tommy or someone else who labelled that score a par. Either way it doesn't seem any different to bogey albeit bogey was maybe the standard for mere mortals rather than golfing superstars. Certainly from what I've read in old mags, there doesn't seem to be too clear a distinction, if any, between par and bogey.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Richard

Many thanks for posting that. I recall reading something similar or perhaps from something that Michael wrote. Whatever, the interesting thing for me is that the definition of bogey in the story isn't the same as one over par that we now take bogey to mean.

IIRC the definition of par came about when Young Tommy was asked at one of the Prestwick Opens what you should score going round Prestwick if you didn't miss a shot. Can't recall if it was Young Tommy or someone else who labelled that score a par. Either way it doesn't seem any different to bogey albeit bogey was maybe the standard for mere mortals rather than golfing superstars. Certainly from what I've read in old mags, there doesn't seem to be too clear a distinction, if any, between par and bogey.

Niall

Sure there was a distinction. You already said it. The difference between an expert score and a very good club player. Hence many long 4s and 3s were bogey 5s and 4s. It was pretty common for there to be a 4-5 shot difference between the two. Some courses didn't list par because experts didn't play their courses competitively.

Ciao

[Steve Wilson]

JMEvensky:
 
Regarding the golf angle to the Colonel Bogey March. 


Colonel Bogey was composed in 1913 at Fort George and published just in time to be around when the world unfortunately found itself in a very big war. But its inspiration came – not from the glory of British legions of any age or conflict but rather from a casual incident on a golf course near Fort George where Fred J. Ricketts…was Bandmaster for the 2nd Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Golf had not yet become one of his recreations; but, he was strolling across the course day, his mind and ear probably lost in a favorite piece of organ muisc, and he failed to respond to a golfer’s shouts of the traditional…”Fore!” With its critical significance lost on him, the impatient player tried to get his attention by resorting to the loud whistling of two clearly distinct tones.[/size][/i][/font]
[/color]The Bandmaster now not only heard the frustrated golfer, he also had found the basic idea – a simple idea – for a march which one day would be heard everywhere. As for the title, it’s not too difficult to speculate Mr. Rickett’s overhearing one golfer’s conversation with another at the Officers’ Club: “I say, how did Colonel Bogey treat you today?”[/font]

[BCrosby]

My understanding is that the 'bogey card' - at least around 1890 - reflected the scoring you might expect from a 'scratch' player. (A player slightly less accomplished than what we think of today as a player with a -0- or negative handicap.)


Thus bogey cards usually showed a score in the high 70s.


During the era it was common to play 'matches' against Colonel Bogey. The Colonel's score on a hole was given on the card; you won, tied or lost a hole depending on how you did against the bogey score.


It was a hybrid of medal and match play. One advantage of the format is that you could finish a 'match play' event involving dozens of golfers in a single day. Each competitor played a match against the Colonel, with the winner being the player who closed out the Colonel the soonest. Most interesting about the format is that you might win a Bogey competition even with several blow-up holes that would have otherwise precluded you from winning a strict medal play event.


It sounds like a terrific format.


Bob


[size=78%]     [/size]

[Tom_Doak]

My understanding is that the 'bogey card' - at least around 1890 - reflected the scoring you might expect from a 'scratch' player. (A player slightly less accomplished than what we think of today as a player with a -0- or negative handicap.)


Thus bogey cards usually showed a score in the high 70s.


During the era it was common to play 'matches' against Colonel Bogey. The Colonel's score on a hole was given on the card; you won, tied or lost a hole depending on how you did against the bogey score.


It was a hybrid of medal and match play. One advantage of the format is that you could finish a 'match play' event involving dozens of golfers in a single day. Each competitor played a match against the Colonel, with the winner being the player who closed out the Colonel the soonest. Most interesting about the format is that you might win a Bogey competition even with several blow-up holes that would have otherwise precluded you from winning a strict medal play event.

It sounds like a terrific format.


[size=78%]     [/size]

That does sound like fun.  If we all played a match against "net par" almost no one would win; against net Bogey we would have a more reasonable chance.


I suppose, though, the handicapping of the holes would be very different if based on the Bogey score.

[Sean_A]

My understanding is that the 'bogey card' - at least around 1890 - reflected the scoring you might expect from a 'scratch' player. (A player slightly less accomplished than what we think of today as a player with a -0- or negative handicap.)


Thus bogey cards usually showed a score in the high 70s.


During the era it was common to play 'matches' against Colonel Bogey. The Colonel's score on a hole was given on the card; you won, tied or lost a hole depending on how you did against the bogey score.


It was a hybrid of medal and match play. One advantage of the format is that you could finish a 'match play' event involving dozens of golfers in a single day. Each competitor played a match against the Colonel, with the winner being the player who closed out the Colonel the soonest. Most interesting about the format is that you might win a Bogey competition even with several blow-up holes that would have otherwise precluded you from winning a strict medal play event.


It sounds like a terrific format.


Bob

Essentially, this format is still used rarely. It's called bogey 4somes, but par is used as the baseline with handicaps. Your pair beat par and go one up. Your pair lose to par and go one down. I always enjoyed the format and used to play in a 3 event summer series. The Corbett Bowl at Droitwich, The Dick Cup at Worcester and one at Kidderminster... forgot the name. Level is a good score, but usually 2 or 3 up will win the event.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

V-Par it is called… We play it regularly in Ireland.


V-Bogey might make us feel we’re playing a little better.


But in the end, they’re all just numbers. I’m sure Sean’s earlier point about “Level 4’s” has a lot to do with 72 becoming the norm. This was always the easiest way to keep count of your score in your head. It has become less prevalent since Stableford started to take over from Strokeplay.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We still have a competition in our calendar that is Bogey. 4 UP is the average winning number.


Bogey since the sixties has been match play against the course but versus PAR.


You get your strokes against holes equal to your handicap on the Stroke Index after deduction (used to be 3/4).


Bogey was common up until the late 50s and was simply enhanced par, Hoylake was probably 80. A lot of courses were 6 more than what they would be today. There were plenty of bogey 6 holes and occasional bogey 7s.


Flag was another old competition style where if you added your handicap to the par or bogey and it was how far you got round the course winning scores would be like 20 holes with the flag halfway up the 3rd!!


Bisques were the best of the old style golf that has been lost.  You might give somebody two bisques and they could take a bisque anywhere as an additional shot to lower their score. They did not need to activate the bisque until the end of the hole.


The 1 6 2 days were quite fun.

[Niall C]

Richard

Many thanks for posting that. I recall reading something similar or perhaps from something that Michael wrote. Whatever, the interesting thing for me is that the definition of bogey in the story isn't the same as one over par that we now take bogey to mean.

IIRC the definition of par came about when Young Tommy was asked at one of the Prestwick Opens what you should score going round Prestwick if you didn't miss a shot. Can't recall if it was Young Tommy or someone else who labelled that score a par. Either way it doesn't seem any different to bogey albeit bogey was maybe the standard for mere mortals rather than golfing superstars. Certainly from what I've read in old mags, there doesn't seem to be too clear a distinction, if any, between par and bogey.

Niall

Sure there was a distinction. You already said it. The difference between an expert score and a very good club player. Hence many long 4s and 3s were bogey 5s and 4s. It was pretty common for there to be a 4-5 shot difference between the two. Some courses didn't list par because experts didn't play their courses competitively.

Ciao

Sean


Not to get pedantic, but I said there wasn't a clear distinction. And yes my interpretation is that bogey might be for ordinary players but then the text doesn't refer to "ordinary golfers", just "a golfer". Your suggestion that there was 4 or 5 shots difference between the two is interesting. I'd be interested to see what clubs had both a bogey score and a par score and to see what the difference usually was.


Niall 

[Niall C]

Re Bogey comps, I've played in a few and can be quite enjoyable as an alternative to the usual medal, and yes the baseline is par.


Bob


You may well be right about bogey being for scratch golfers particularly when you think of bogey scores being in the high 70's which would have been a pretty good score at the time.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

The Only OPEN GOLF CHAMPIONSHIP I can find that listed Bogey was 1923, so I assume bogey was used earlier.


Par for Troon would have been 70 using the cut off's of 0-250 (3) 251-475 (4) 476+ (5)


Bogey was 79 so 9 more. Hole 6 and 16 were a Bogey 6. All the current par 3 holes are unchanged from Bogey.


Most holes were Bogey 5, only the current 1st, 2nd. 7th, 11th and 13th were bogey fours. Routing unchanged but 11 was a fair bit shorter at just 315 yards.


For the 1950 championship the course was only a few yards longer but no par or bogey was associated with the holes.
For the Amateur championships I have looked back into the programmes from 1931 and again neither par or bogey are mentioned.
hole 17 at TOC was listed as a par 5 well into the 1960s.