“It Will Get The Course Closer to Par 72”

[Richard Fisher]

As Sean and I have often noted here, the transition from ‘bogey’ to ‘par’ mustn’t be overlooked. Many of the famed sub-70 par courses in the UK (e.g Aldeburgh, Harlech, Rye) had historic bogey cards well into the 70s: Harlech’s bogey in the mid-20th-century was 76, with an SSS of 75, with only four bogey four holes (2nd, 5th, 6th, and 16th) and Rye was not dissimilar. Aldeburgh nowadays has 14 par fours and four threes, Rye has one five (the 1st), five threes and twelve fours, and Harlech has two fives, five threes and eleven fours. 
GCA architects will tell me, I suspect, that any proposals for a card like that nowadays would be met with a fairly furrowed brow. As would the most famous card of all with two fives, two threes and fourteen fours (even if one of those fours is really a five)…

[Sean_A]

GCA architects will tell me, I suspect, that any proposals for a card like that nowadays would be met with a fairly furrowed brow. As would the most famous card of all with two fives, two threes and fourteen fours (even if one of those fours is really a five)…

Or 16 par 4s and 2 par 3s.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Adrian

You deal in new courses. The average members of classic courses in the UK probably don't know the par and could care less. Once you get out of the industry bubble of architect, contractor, raters, marketing people etc, I think it becomes a lot less relevant. People prefer Woking over Worplesdon or Turnberry over Troon, not because of the par of the respective courses, if they even know what they are, but because of other factors. Just my humble opinion.

Niall

[Niall C]

Let me say in all honesty that at all the courses where I've been a member I can't recall a single conversation on the par for the round, whether the par was a good thing or a bad thing.

You would have definitely heard about it if there had been a proposal to change it, especially downwards.

Ally

At different times I've been a member at 5 different clubs with a total of 6 courses. Four of the courses have had significant changes when I was a member including new tees/greens. The changes have been about the individual holes rather than the overall par. I dare say that some might have justified changes by saying it got them to par 72 but if they did I don't recall and I seriously doubt it happened. But for sure the overall par wasn't a topic of conversation when discussion on hole changes came up in the members bar.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let me say in all honesty that at all the courses where I've been a member I can't recall a single conversation on the par for the round, whether the par was a good thing or a bad thing.

You would have definitely heard about it if there had been a proposal to change it, especially downwards.

Ally

At different times I've been a member at 5 different clubs with a total of 6 courses. Four of the courses have had significant changes when I was a member including new tees/greens. The changes have been about the individual holes rather than the overall par. I dare say that some might have justified changes by saying it got them to par 72 but if they did I don't recall and I seriously doubt it happened. But for sure the overall par wasn't a topic of conversation when discussion on hole changes came up in the members bar.

Niall

No doubt, Niall…. But try suggesting to members that you are going to reduce par and you initially get looked at like you’ve lost your marbles!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

You deal in new courses. The average members of classic courses in the UK probably don't know the par and could care less. Once you get out of the industry bubble of architect, contractor, raters, marketing people etc, I think it becomes a lot less relevant. People prefer Woking over Worplesdon or Turnberry over Troon, not because of the par of the respective courses, if they even know what they are, but because of other factors. Just my humble opinion.

Niall

MOST golf courses are par 70 par 71 or par 72 though. How many top 100 GB & Ire courses are less than par 70...I would take a guess at less than 5. Same as how many great courses are not 18 holes. Hard to crack the mould a 16 hole course would be laughed at, if built at some stage someone would split or squeeze to get 18.

[Richard Fisher]

In the top 100, Aldeburgh (68) Harlech (69) Rye (68) and Swinley Forest (69). New Zealand (68) perhaps in the next rung.
Any other Top 100 candidates below 70?

[Ally Mcintosh]

In the top 100, Aldeburgh (68) Harlech (69) Rye (68) and Swinley Forest (69). New Zealand (68) perhaps in the next rung.
Any other Top 100 candidates below 70?

West Sussex 68

[Thomas Dai]

For most people accepted par is either 70, 71 or 72.
Any new development seeks that number and most seek 72. Most old ones that are under 70 want to hit that bar, 6000 yards is another line to cross. The ones that say they don't care probably mean it can't ever be that long because of boundary constraints.
Any par less than 70 is deemed substandard by most golfers.
There is no reason why it should be that as a 6400 yard course par 69 is a terror, it is just hard to convince people. Our second course is par 68 and we lose business because of it. Me I'd rather play the little one.

Can’t disagree with this. Shame it’s the way it is though.
Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

In the top 100, Aldeburgh (68) Harlech (69) Rye (68) and Swinley Forest (69). New Zealand (68) perhaps in the next rung.
Any other Top 100 candidates below 70?

Cavendish is England top 100 in two of the three main lists and is par 68. It is only 5700 yards.


I am also a member at Silloth which is par 72 and 6400 yards. Cavendish is by far the tougher course at which to play to one’s handicap.

[Tom_Doak]

In the top 100, Aldeburgh (68) Harlech (69) Rye (68) and Swinley Forest (69). New Zealand (68) perhaps in the next rung.
Any other Top 100 candidates below 70?

West Sussex as mentioned.
St Enodoc is par 69.
The Addington is probably not on most lists right now, but it is par 68 I think

[Tim Martin]

Neither Golf or Golf Digest has less than a par 70 course in their Top 100 U.S. lists. GolfWeek has par 69 Wannamoisett at # 53 on their Top 100 U.S. Classic(built before 1960) list. This was done on a quick scan so if I erred please advise.

[Tom_Doak]

Neither Golf or Golf Digest has less than a par 70 course in their Top 100 U.S. lists. GolfWeek has par 69 Wannamoisett at # 53 on their Top 100 U.S. Classic(built before 1960) list. This was done on a quick scan so if I erred please advise.

That is probably correct.  The only other one that has ever had any votes is Cape Arundel in Maine, also a par 69.


There are a few other sub-70 courses that are pretty good, nearly all of them in New England.  Plymouth CC in MA comes to mind.  Sakonnet in RI was Donald Ross's summer home and was a par-69 for ages, until the club hired Gil Hanse to "fix" it and make it par 70. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

As Sean and I have often noted here, the transition from ‘bogey’ to ‘par’ mustn’t be overlooked. Many of the famed sub-70 par courses in the UK (e.g Aldeburgh, Harlech, Rye) had historic bogey cards well into the 70s.

In the U.K. at least, this is the important reason why so many of our courses are sub par 70.


Until the 1930’s “par” wasn’t really a thing. Golf holes were given either a “bogey” or “standard scratch” denoting the number of shots a good player should be expected to take when on decent form.


In essence “bogey” worked in the same way as “par” but the criteria were slightly different. Any hole much over 400 yards was a bogey 5, meaning that the overall bogey for most courses was around 75-76.


When par began to replace bogey after WW2 the lower limit for a par 5 was set at 475 yards. This meant that most holes in the 400-475 yard range were “demoted” from bogey 5 to par 4.


Any course with a preponderance of holes in that range saw their overall par figure dip well below 70. As most courses in the U.K. date from well before par became a thing it was inevitable that many would become sub par 70.


Moves to get par up to the totem figure of 70 began almost immediately at many clubs. Tees were moved back at perfectly good long par 4 holes to elicit indifferent short par 5s which good players could still easily reach in two shots - not to make the hole any better, but purely to get the par figure up.


It is still going on. At my former club Reddish Vale the membership has voted (against the advice of their architect) to move the tee of the 445 yard 11th hole back 25 yards onto a wooded hillside for the sole reason to get the par of the course up to 70. This on a hole that already has an unsatisfactory 100 yard walk back from the previous green and will result in longer hitters playing blind 150-200 yard approach shots over an escarpment to a hidden green. Currently, a good drive gives a view of the green. The hole would actually be improved by making it shorter, not longer!

[Sean_A]

I agree Duncan. Should play off the ladies tee make the 12th green a bit safer.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I agree Duncan. Should play off the ladies tee make the 12th green a bit safer.

Ciao

And the 10th green!


Also, big hitters would have to worry about running out of fairway!

[Niall C]

Duncan

I tend to think that the par/bogey thing is a bit of red herring. If as Tom suggests, that par 72 didn't become something to strive for until after WWII then the majority of UK courses were already built by then. And as discussed, the average members club over here might be able to tinker but they generally don't have the scope in terms of finance or land to completely redesign a course in the US fashion. Also, just like coastal erosion has eaten into some courses, improvement in equipment has nipped away at par over here as some par 5's become par 4's and some short par 4's become long par 3's. You might be able extend the odd tee but you aren't going to be able to turn the tide.

Niall

[Richard Fisher]

To Duncan's point, I have just located one of my Dad's mid-century cards from St Enedoc, giving a bogey of 75 for what (save for the extended 16th) is pretty much the same Church Course as today. Five threes, five fours and eight fives (including the 9th, 12th, and 13th, none of which was over 400 yards): in toto 6056 yards with an SSS (as at Harlech) of 75, one below bogey.

[Richard Fisher]

Am idiot
Bogey and SSS at St Enedoc were the same (75).
Henry Longhurst once wrote that one ‘well-known resort course’ declared a bogey of 80. I’d love to know which one!

[Tim Martin]

Neither Golf or Golf Digest has less than a par 70 course in their Top 100 U.S. lists. GolfWeek has par 69 Wannamoisett at # 53 on their Top 100 U.S. Classic(built before 1960) list. This was done on a quick scan so if I erred please advise.

That is probably correct.  The only other one that has ever had any votes is Cape Arundel in Maine, also a par 69.


There are a few other sub-70 courses that are pretty good, nearly all of them in New England.  Plymouth CC in MA comes to mind.  Sakonnet in RI was Donald Ross's summer home and was a par-69 for ages, until the club hired Gil Hanse to "fix" it and make it par 70. 

CC of Waterbury is another Ross par 69 that is on GolfWeek’s next 100 Classic list currently at #182.

[BCrosby]

Duncan/Richard - What do you know about the origins of the bogey card?


I've come across some (disdainful) Scottish accounts circa 1890 claiming that it was an English invention.


Bob

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan/Richard - What do you know about the origins of the bogey card?


I've come across some (disdainful) Scottish accounts circa 1890 claiming that it was an English invention.


Bob

This is a pretty good explanation.


[size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/origins-bogey-in-golf/[/size]

[Tom_Doak]

Duncan/Richard - What do you know about the origins of the bogey card?


I've come across some (disdainful) Scottish accounts circa 1890 claiming that it was an English invention.


Bob

This is a pretty good explanation.


[size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/origins-bogey-in-golf/[/size]

The one thing new to me from that account was that the USGA introduced par as the standard, in 1911.


Since nearly all the classic golf books were written after that date, it never occurred to me that there was really no such thing as par when the great links were built - nor when Oakmont and Garden City were built.  I did understand that certain correspondents talked about holes as "one shotters" or "three shotters" instead of the terms we would use today, and that the two expectations are pretty much interchangeable, but still, no par!

[Duncan Cheslett]

And in the U.K. there was no par until after WW2.


Some clubs eschewed par into the 1990s. Delamere Forest for one had bogey scores on the card until then.

[Peter Pallotta]

One very good thing that could happen to/for the 'game of golf' in the years to come would be the reintroduction and re-embracing of the 'bogey card' -- though in these more prickly and pretentious times, it might have to be re-named.

I don't know enough about the shorter course that Tom will be building in Wisconsin to know for sure, but I think that might be one of the best things it brings with it -- a high profile 'educational' and 'marketing' opportunity in support of the 'new' bogey card. I can't think of a better avenue -- you have Tom, and Mr K's clout and established networks and Sand Valley, beloved by journalists and bloggers and documentarians, all of whom can go to town with a great 'story' that writes itself. (Wallace Beery, wrestling picture -- what do you need, a road map?)

Who knows, maybe one day our great classic courses (that the pros find 'too short') will have a 'bogey score' of 72, and a 'par' for the top players of 66.