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Brian_Ewen

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The Angus
« on: November 21, 2021, 12:24:44 PM »
https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/19720051.scotland-golf-angus-new-plans-lodged/


Scotland golf: The Angus: new plans lodged
By Ian McConnell  @ianmcconnellHT
Group Business Editor

An updated “masterplan” for a £100 million "world-class" golf resort, hotel and spa in the Angus countryside has been submitted for planning consent.

A section 42 order was granted by Angus Council in 2017 to allow a newly appointed project team to make alterations to the original designs, repositioning the development as a “best-in-class” hotel with traditional Scottish architecture and renowned hospitality.

Forbes of Kingennie owner and Angus businessman, Mike Forbes, has already received planning permission in principle for The Angus, with construction due to begin on the golf course in summer 2022 if the latest designs are approved.

The Angus is described as “one of the biggest hospitality investments in Scotland in recent years and could contribute more than £40m to the local economy per year once it’s operational”.

The full development is expected to generate more than 300 full and part-time jobs, with a further 130 full-time equivalent posts and 285 additional employment positions during the construction and development phase.

Those behind the development say it “will boast the first five-star hotel in the Dundee and Angus region”.

Following a redesign of the original plans, which already have planning consent, the hotel now has 175 guest rooms, a rooftop sky bar and 1,900-square-metre spa and leisure facility.

Those behind the project say it "will be the anchor for a signature Darren Clarke golf course, clubhouse and golf academy with driving range".

The plans also includes 160 houses and 10 luxury lodges.

The development is set within 300 acres of land on the Shank of Omachie, above the long-established Forbes of Kingennie country resort, near Broughty Ferry.

Mr Forbes said: “The Angus is an unrivalled opportunity for Angus and Scotland. It is simply an iconic hotel and golf complex which will surpass anything on offer in the country. 

“With a five-star hotel and spa offering, as well as the first signature golf course from legendary Ryder Cup winner and former Open champion Darren Clarke, The Angus will create jobs and opportunities, generating significant income and boosting Dundee and Angus as a world-class tourism and leisure destination.”

A hotel partner is expected to be announced in coming months.

Caroline Warburton, VisitScotland regional leadership director, said: “This is an exciting development for Dundee and Angus, and a first for this region. A five-star hotel is a fantastic addition to the area’s strengthening tourism portfolio – putting it on the map not only in Scotland but internationally. Tourism is an increasingly important part of the Dundee and Angus economies, creating both economic and social value. We look forward to working with the team as the development continues.”

The Forbes family has appointed an experienced project team of handpicked partners including 3D Reid architects, Ryden, Morrison Construction, Balgair, Manson Architects, Team Niblick (golf course design) and CPC (project management) to oversee the development. 

Mr Forbes added: “This is a huge project and a labour of love for me, my family and our planning team who have worked tirelessly to ensure we have a resort that the people of Angus can be proud of for generations to come."

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2021, 03:12:00 PM »
Presumably Forbes is still trying to find an investor with deep pockets.... he hasn't done so in the ten years or so since this project first surfaced.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2021, 03:52:37 PM »
Does Darren Clarke really have the architectural chops and pedigree to anchor such a premium development?


That's kinda like if a new development went into the Oregon coast featuring a "Davis Love" or Tom Lehman" Signature golf course... ;D ;D


Nothing against Darren personally.
Had a nice conversation with him at the 2000 US Open at Pebble during the Thursday fog delay.


But not sure I think his golf course will help drive property values.

Joe Hancock

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2021, 03:57:08 PM »
That's kinda like if a new development went into the Oregon coast featuring a "Davis Love" or Tom Lehman" Signature golf course... ;D ;D


Serious, or sarcasm?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Marty Bonnar

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2021, 04:26:51 PM »
Presumably Forbes is still trying to find an investor with deep pockets.... he hasn't done so in the ten years or so since this project first surfaced.


Some of the other press releases mentioned a financing partner company.
F.


PS Team Niblick is Graeme Webster who also did their original 9-holer: https://www.forbesofkingennie.co.uk/golf/kingennie-golf-course/


PPS Artist’s impression of the hotel here: https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/updated-plans-lodged-for-new-100m-angus-golf-resort
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 04:48:42 PM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2021, 02:25:42 AM »
To me this is sort of Pie in the Sky over the last few years I have learned what investors look for and they are rather astute. Can't see this being a profit making venture with Carnoustie and St Andrews further down the road taking up most of the golf market.


If they take the leap good luck to them.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2021, 03:35:44 AM »
If it ever happens the profit is in the houses — Ben you know how uncommon it is in the UK to get planning to build golf and housing estates of the kind that are common elsewhere. The hotel is the bit that is impossible to judge without detailed local knowledge. It could be a certain loss maker, or, if there is a shortage of and a demand for decent accommodation in the area it could be a good bet. But tbh whether it is or not has precious little to do with the proposed golf course
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2021, 03:59:52 AM »
A few random comments;

- any golf development built in a place called Shank of Omachie is probably tempting fate  ;D
- the professional team behind the project are serious and well respected firms
- Scotland isn't the US and frankly it wouldn't matter if Nicklaus, Doak or Hanse were doing the course as it wouldn't sell more houses. The houses will sell because they will be quality houses overlooking a golf course.
- the location of a number of top courses in easy reach is a benefit to this development and not a hinderance. It can only benefit the hotel, and as a spin off the course.
- I think most folk would be surprised how much, or rather how little he'll make out of the housing. Not as much as folks would think once you take into account servicing the land plus planning gain.
- Am I the only one who thinks the clubhouse looks like the Dukes ?

Niall 

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 05:43:53 AM »
If it ever happens the profit is in the houses — Ben you know how uncommon it is in the UK to get planning to build golf and housing estates of the kind that are common elsewhere. The hotel is the bit that is impossible to judge without detailed local knowledge. It could be a certain loss maker, or, if there is a shortage of and a demand for decent accommodation in the area it could be a good bet. But tbh whether it is or not has precious little to do with the proposed golf course


The profit in housing are getting narrower due to the increase price of materials and labour. Concrete and timber is up around 80% this year!!.


Its easier to get planning in some respects however getting a development appraisal is much harder to get through from experience whether it is housing, hotel or golf course - the investor world know their numbers what is a good and bad investment. Why hasn't Trumpville in Aberdeen been built yet?? Location is a huge factor - investors would prefer to target London for example as it is where the bigger profit is - not in the middle of nowhere or northerly like Aberdeen. 


The infrastructure is not there as its miles away from anywhere and it takes a huge lump sum out of any potential investment which investors tend to stay away from and hope the local council will stump up for it so they take the profits from the buildings themselves and still the profit margins from houses will be too thin.


Newer golf courses in this area find it hard to make a profit look at Letham Grange just up the road it has closed down - there isn't the catchment area nor tourists at this stage (and would they travel miles to play a Darren Clarke course?? no offence to Darren he has been a mainstay in European Golf) to enable it to make profit.

Niall C

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 06:29:46 AM »
Ben

I know you hail from west of Watford but have you ever been north of Watford ? You do know that we don't all just live in wigwams and council houses up north ? Seriously, we have some very successful Scottish development companies up here, and I doubt many of them are trying to get into the London market or any other market they don't know.

As a matter of interest, what do you think of the Rowallan development ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2021, 06:50:57 AM »
Aberdeen had - for a long time - the second most expensive real estate in the UK after West London.


That may have changed. Anyway, we’re not talking about Aberdeen.

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2021, 07:38:21 AM »
Ben

I know you hail from west of Watford but have you ever been north of Watford ? You do know that we don't all just live in wigwams and council houses up north ? Seriously, we have some very successful Scottish development companies up here, and I doubt many of them are trying to get into the London market or any other market they don't know.

As a matter of interest, what do you think of the Rowallan development ?

Niall


Niall


Umm I don't hail west of Watford but North of Watford by a few hours :) will let you all have your opinion and not going to waste my time arguing - something I have learnt.  ;D


All I say that is that I have learned a lot and increased understanding of what investors look for in the past few years. Finding investment in Scotland in the next few years - good luck!


Can't answer re: Rowallan was done mostly by EGD I think with Monty's input. Wonder how much involvement/drawing/construction work Monty actually did. Would I travel miles to play on a Monty course - no (look at Celtic Manor for example)


Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 07:47:50 AM by Ben Stephens »

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2021, 07:39:58 AM »
Aberdeen had - for a long time - the second most expensive real estate in the UK after West London.


That may have changed. Anyway, we’re not talking about Aberdeen.


Umm not sure if thats the case - Oxford is well known as being the second most expensive real estate outside of London. Unless this is because of oil industry and that you are referring to the number of houses built.


What will happen to Aberdeen when the reliance on oil reduces?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 07:46:45 AM by Ben Stephens »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2021, 07:48:39 AM »
Aberdeen had - for a long time - the second most expensive real estate in the UK after West London.


That may have changed. Anyway, we’re not talking about Aberdeen.


Umm not sure if thats the case - Oxford is well known as being the second most expensive real estate outside of London. Unless this is because of oil industry and that you are referring to the number of houses built.


What will happen to Aberdeen when the reliance on oil reduces?


No - average house price, Ben. Driven by the money in the oil industry. As I say, may have changed years ago.

Niall C

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2021, 08:06:37 AM »
Ben

I appreciate that funding isn't a formality but neither is it impossible which is what you are saying. New development is breaking ground all the time. My reference to Rowallan was to point out that similar to what is proposed here, Rowallan also has a high end residential element and is in the sticks. Also Cardrona, which is even more remote with a c.100 bed hotel.

This proposed development is located within easy commuting distance of Scotlands fourth largest town and within less than an hours drive of a handful of world class courses. It isn't remote, not even remotely remote !

Niall

ps. and Ally is correct about Aberdeen

Marty Bonnar

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2021, 08:43:48 AM »
A mate of mine had his wedding reception at the resort a month ago. If the quality there is anything to go by, the new development should be very high-end. I haven't played the current golf course though, so can't comment. Maybe Brian P was involved back then?
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2021, 09:05:13 AM »
One of my best mates relocated to the estate when it was first built. He was delighted with his choice.

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2021, 09:46:54 AM »
Ben

I appreciate that funding isn't a formality but neither is it impossible which is what you are saying. New development is breaking ground all the time. My reference to Rowallan was to point out that similar to what is proposed here, Rowallan also has a high end residential element and is in the sticks. Also Cardrona, which is even more remote with a c.100 bed hotel.

This proposed development is located within easy commuting distance of Scotlands fourth largest town and within less than an hours drive of a handful of world class courses. It isn't remote, not even remotely remote !

Niall

ps. and Ally is correct about Aberdeen


Umm if you google average house prices there is a stark difference between Oxford and Aberdeen so not sure where Ally is coming from  ::)  whether it is numbers of houses rather than the average.


If you are saying that there will be more large housing overlooking golf courses becoming the norm there is a danger of overdevelopment an example is what has happened across the pond which ended up like ghost towns.


Investors are more wary nowadays, they have tightened up their belts, increased the number of boxes to be ticked and if there is a demand for this in Scotland at the likes of Rowallan, Forbes of Kingussie, Trumpville and gWest then good luck on making a profit on them as the next few years in the construction industry is going to be difficult. I just can't see them being completed in 10 years time



Niall C

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2021, 10:27:23 AM »
Ben

I appreciate that funding isn't a formality but neither is it impossible which is what you are saying. New development is breaking ground all the time. My reference to Rowallan was to point out that similar to what is proposed here, Rowallan also has a high end residential element and is in the sticks. Also Cardrona, which is even more remote with a c.100 bed hotel.

This proposed development is located within easy commuting distance of Scotlands fourth largest town and within less than an hours drive of a handful of world class courses. It isn't remote, not even remotely remote !

Niall

ps. and Ally is correct about Aberdeen


Umm if you google average house prices there is a stark difference between Oxford and Aberdeen so not sure where Ally is coming from  ::)  whether it is numbers of houses rather than the average. I can't recall exactly the metric but it showed Aberdeen to be second only to parts of London


If you are saying that there will be more large housing overlooking golf courses becoming the norm there is a danger of overdevelopment an example is what has happened across the pond which ended up like ghost towns. I've no idea what you are talking about as I've suggested no such thing.


Investors are more wary nowadays, they have tightened up their belts, increased the number of boxes to be ticked and if there is a demand for this in Scotland at the likes of Rowallan, Forbes of Kingussie, Trumpville and gWest then good luck on making a profit on them as the next few years in the construction industry is going to be difficult. I just can't see them being completed in 10 years time And yet houses are being built all over Scotland. New developments happening all the time. Suggest you go on google maps and check all the new housing there already.

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2021, 11:11:19 AM »
Ben

I appreciate that funding isn't a formality but neither is it impossible which is what you are saying. New development is breaking ground all the time. My reference to Rowallan was to point out that similar to what is proposed here, Rowallan also has a high end residential element and is in the sticks. Also Cardrona, which is even more remote with a c.100 bed hotel.

This proposed development is located within easy commuting distance of Scotlands fourth largest town and within less than an hours drive of a handful of world class courses. It isn't remote, not even remotely remote !

Niall

ps. and Ally is correct about Aberdeen


Umm if you google average house prices there is a stark difference between Oxford and Aberdeen so not sure where Ally is coming from  ::)  whether it is numbers of houses rather than the average. I can't recall exactly the metric but it showed Aberdeen to be second only to parts of London


If you are saying that there will be more large housing overlooking golf courses becoming the norm there is a danger of overdevelopment an example is what has happened across the pond which ended up like ghost towns. I've no idea what you are talking about as I've suggested no such thing.


Investors are more wary nowadays, they have tightened up their belts, increased the number of boxes to be ticked and if there is a demand for this in Scotland at the likes of Rowallan, Forbes of Kingussie, Trumpville and gWest then good luck on making a profit on them as the next few years in the construction industry is going to be difficult. I just can't see them being completed in 10 years time And yet houses are being built all over Scotland. New developments happening all the time. Suggest you go on google maps and check all the new housing there already.



Well as of Nov 2021 Google search says the av price of a house in Aberdeen is around £225k and Oxford around £550k. I can imagine per acre Oxford is more expensive than Aberdeen these days.

'Large housing' should have been 'Large houses' as in high spec residential element ;D

Most of the new housing in Scotland/UK (poor quality build) are built within the city and town boundaries by house builders.

I thought we we're discussing out to town golf course developments with high spec large houses specifically.


« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 11:34:17 AM by Ben Stephens »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2021, 05:37:28 AM »
As Adam points out the main money is in the housing 160 houses equals quite a lot of 100 million, houses are half the price in Scotland they are in the south. As Ben points out costs have risen dramatically and there is no longer the cream involved in just gaining the planning. Also The labour and material costs are not significantly cheaper north of the wall. That all adds up to Scottish housing projects being less tasty than in the South.


Darren Clarke would probably sell more housing with his name than TD.


ANGUS looks like paper talk. You can buy Turnberry for £100,000,000 at the moment, it has some development land with it so I am not sure of the values attributed to the golf courses and the hotel. DT paid and has spent close to a quarter of a billion if you include the huge losses (if you can believe the press), so if he takes £100M his face will be even yellower! Somebody who I respect on values reckons Turnberry might only be worth £30M.


A few years ago somebody asked me what Celtic Manor was worth. I said I did not really know but ballpark kinda guessed £30M. The chap replied I was miles out and they wanted £1B.


There are just not the values in these types of developments unless you can extract the housing then do the rest as a multiple of profits. You can probably say 20 times (A 5% yield) profit is a fair valuation, though most big players would want 7%.


It will be a rough few years for the high end courses whose profits will have turned to big losses with the lack of international visitors. Rather than develop NEW, most clever buyers will simply mop of the OLD trusted cash cows at a % of what they were worth pre pandemic.


Resorts that would work involve multiple courses where you can stay and play for 3 days, have great hospitality (get drunk each night and eat well). That type of resort can work well at any level.


There is still another half finished project a few miles out from St Andrews, why is everyone giving that the shoulder? The answer is probably in the mathematics.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2021, 10:10:06 AM »

ANGUS looks like paper talk. You can buy Turnberry for £100,000,000 at the moment, it has some development land with it so I am not sure of the values attributed to the golf courses and the hotel. DT paid and has spent close to a quarter of a billion if you include the huge losses (if you can believe the press), so if he takes £100M his face will be even yellower! Somebody who I respect on values reckons Turnberry might only be worth £30M.


A few years ago somebody asked me what Celtic Manor was worth. I said I did not really know but ballpark kinda guessed £30M. The chap replied I was miles out and they wanted £1B.

Is Turnberry being sold now?  Something as low as 30 million really?  I'm very surprised by the number as I know his exaggerated figures for renovation were 150-200 million pounds is nowhere close. I would have thought more than 30 million certainly. I'm not sure how much land and housing he actually owns.
I know the Doonbeg property has the houses or villas / condos on the way into the resort were supposed to be fractional or full ownership and heard they were nowhere near sold. It certainly helps to develop real estate to hedge risk. At Sand Valley look what they are doing with selling a small number of lots for big $$$. Has always been part of a good formula to balance the risk.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Brian_Ewen

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2022, 03:34:33 AM »

An updated masterplan for a £100 million five-star Angus hotel and golf resort is going before councillors with a green-light recommendation.

And the businessman behind the long-held vision says the spectacular “best-in-class” development is ready to go.

It is hoped the first guests could arrive at The Angus in 2024.

The Shank of Omachie project beside the successful Forbes of Kingennie resort is one of Scotland’s biggest hospitality investments in recent years.

It is forecast to bring a £40 million pound annual boost to the local economy when complete.

And bring more than 300 full and part-time jobs.

Businessman Mike Forbes said: “The Angus will be the first five-star hotel in the Dundee and Angus region and a truly iconic resort for locals to be proud of for generations to come.

His hopes are pinned on councillors continuing to back the ambitious project.

“We hope to secure a positive outcome to allow us to begin work on this transformational development,” he said.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/angus-mearns/3072830/angus-golf-resort-masterplan/

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2022, 05:55:14 AM »

Link to planning documents - Hotel is massive an gargantuan gothic like building. Also plans of the golf course here as well nothing really to get excited about GCA wise

https://planning.angus.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=R23FUFCFGFS00&activeTab=summary







Brian_Ewen

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Re: The Angus
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2022, 01:34:23 PM »
Construction on the Shank of Omachie development will begin this summer after updated plans were given the go-ahead.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/broughty-ferry-golf-resort-dundee-26414895

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