Golf Mag 2022-23 Top 100 sorted via: elevation diff., ascent, tee distance, etc.

[Jeff Schley]

Apologies for the terrible formatting as I would love to improve the display as opposed to long posts. If anyone can help please let me know. Although not efficiently displayed as desired, it is rather interesting data.

Summary of all data is in POST #9
OK, so I wanted to correct figures posted in the elevation diff. thread and then developed a spreadsheet with various stats. I ended up adding the entire GM 2022-23 Top 100 courses, in addition to some others I had in originally to show large/small walking ascent distances. Note: I'm exclusively using Provisualizer.com data, which is awesome as many of you know. You can basically do a flyover of over 3,000 courses in the world and can measure widths, elevations, distances etc. all for free. They use Cesium (not Google Earth) for their mapping and the US Geological Survey for elevation. I guess the USGS also has done the planet as it appears they use it for the entire world. Satellite based so easy enough I suppose.

Clarifications on categories

• Rank - based on latest 22-23 GM rankings
• Total Ascent - From Provisualizer, total uphill walking distance in METERS for an entire round (includes tee transitions) assuming a straight line. Example: The Golf Club in Ohio. Hole 1: Elevation: 321(distance above sea level and used to calculate total ascent) − 2 (walk from tee to your tee ball) + 2 (walk from your 2nd shot to the green) meters. So in this example you have a +2 total as they only calculate uphill walking distance. Downhill walks don't count and the total isn't a net, it is only a sum of the total uphill walking meters for the entire round. What isn't shown is the walk between tees. I have emailed them to inquire exactly how this is calculated and will adjust when I get an explanation.
• Elevation Difference - From Provisualizer, this calculates the difference from the lowest point on the course to the highest in METERS. I assume this is only for the actual playing course not parking lot, clubhouse etc. I have emailed them for clarification.
• Ascent > Elevation Difference - This is a stat I came up with and not sure it is useful, please give me a suggestion if you have time to waste and are interested. I wanted to see how efficiently the architect was able to minimize the uphill climbs based on total elevation difference. Theoretically if a course had a Elevation Difference of 50, but if hole 1 started at the very top and only played downhill the Total Ascent would be zero. Also if you started at the bottom of the same course and only played uphill the Total Ascent would be exactly 50. Neither happens in reality, so the architect has to have some uphill climbs and downhill throughout, thus how much extra backtracking does the routing take you uphill. If the 1st tee is in the middle of the elevation difference then you have to go down / up a portion of that 50 meters throughout. Again just showing the backtracking of elevation needed for the routing, and obviously the more a course requires you to go uphill the harder the walk. You could have a course that has only 10 Total Elevation change, but if each hole plays down and back up that 10 meter slope for 18 holes it would require nine 10 meter walks downhill and 9 uphill, thus the Total Ascent would be 90. In my formula is would yield 90-10=80. It isn't to judge any architects routing at all, just a stat and maybe meaningless.
• Playing Distance - From Provisualizer, this is the longest distance the course plays from the back tees. The Provisualizer default is always calculated on the back tee boxes. They may not have adjusted their measurements for recent tee box additions.
• Total Walking Distance - From Provisualizer, this is the straightline walking distance for the entire course. From tee shot on 1 to holing out your putt on 18. Includes tee box transitions, which I'll use for the next calculation.
• Total Green to Next Tee distance - If you subtract the playing distance from the total walking distance you get the distance from green to next tee. Now what I'm not sure of is this distance again a straight line as the crow flies? If it is unless you are being carried by zip line or levitate to the next tee box this distance could be drastically greater. Some circuitous routes from the green to the next tee are pretty common and memorable, but certainly not as the crow flies. Asking for clarification on this.
• % over the Total Green to Next Tee distance is from the Playing Distance of a course - This is a % of how much over the total walking distance is over the playing distance. Basically how close are the green to tee transitions to each other compared to the total length of the course.
• That's what I have come up with, interesting to see some results. If you have other categories to add let me know, maybe architect, location etc.
• I'm using an excel spreadsheet so I hope the pasting works OK to make this useful. Maybe if someone knows how to take my spreadsheet into a google docs to share with all that is great, let me know as you can sort however you want.

I'll use a separate post for each sort to try and make it cleaner, who knows if the GCA formatting gremlins can be tamed. 

[Jeff Schley]

Let's see if this works. First is the GM Top 100 sorted by their ranking with various categories. Came out very crappy. Any suggested please PM me. Excel to here is a nightmare.
 

Rank	Course	Total Ascent	Elev. Diff.	Ascent > Elev.	Play Dist.	Walking Dist.	Tee Dist.	% over
1

Pine Valley [/t][/t] 105 29 76 7165 8191 1026 114% 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 152 50 102 6588 7610 1022 116% 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 40 7 33 7292 8616 1324 118% 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 97 19 78 7473 9083 1610 122% 

5

NGLA [/t] 70 17 53 6932 7924 992 114% 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 54 10 44 7124 8513 1389 119% 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 60 12 48 6655 7790 1135 117% 

8

Oakmont[/t] 125 27 98 7286 8842 1556 121% 

9

Augusta National [/t] 136 55 81 7558 8897 1339 118% 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 92 22 70 6955 7993 1038 115% 

11

Muirfield[/t] 59 20 39 7156 8563 1407 120% 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 60 16 44 6757 8087 1330 120% 

13

Merion [/t] 157 37 120 7025 8375 1350 119% 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 114 35 79 7096 8276 1180 117% 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 75 22 53 7292 8674 1382 119% 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 58 14 44 6604 7520 916 114% 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 71 21 50 7571 8672 1101 115% 

18

Turnberry[/t] 52 10 42 7385 9018 1633 122% 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 75 15 60 6979 7874 895 113% 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 152 47 105 7354 8680 1326 118% 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 100 30 70 6966 8039 1073 115% 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 61 13 48 7187 8609 1422 120% 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 59 14 45 6945 8119 1174 117% 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 88 18 70 6644 7714 1070 116% 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 69 21 48 7449 8817 1368 118% 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 83 14 69 6851 8081 1230 118% 

27

Riviera[/t] 144 47 97 7403 8554 1151 116% 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 72 22 50 6686 8133 1447 122% 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 164 66 98 6504 7749 1245 119% 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 104 41 63 6652 7974 1322 120% 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 83 24 59 7411 8505 1094 115% 

32

Seminole[/t] 96 18 78 7300 8233 933 113% 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 30 5 25 7193 8819 1626 123% 

34

San Francisco[/t] 124 45 79 6757 7983 1226 118% 

35

North Berwick[/t] 49 8 41 6622 7503 881 113% 

36

Lahinch[/t] 83 18 65 6932 8048 1116 116% 

37

Hirono[/t] 82 37 45 7151 8167 1016 114% 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 56 10 46 6784 8085 1301 119% 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 41 8 33 7362 8499 1137 115% 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 103 21 82 7442 8825 1383 119% 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 60 16 44 6506 7648 1142 118% 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 51 8 43 7096 8590 1494 121% 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 145 27 118 6745 7649 904 113% 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 118 42 76 6738 7859 1121 117% 

45

Garden City [/t] 86 34 52 6904 7954 1050 115% 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 94 30 64 7433 8492 1059 114% 

47

New South Wales[/t] 111 49 62 6842 8109 1267 119% 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 151 56 95 7258 8675 1417 120% 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 56 12 44 6666 7744 1078 116% 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 78 23 55 6318 7307 989 116% 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 110 52 58 7180 8598 1418 120% 

52

Bethpage[/t] 106 29 77 7483 8966 1483 120% 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 23 4 19 7444 9044 1600 121% 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 65 28 37 7128 8423 1295 118% 

55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t] 0 0 0 0 0 0 0% 

56

Maidstone[/t] 39 6 33 6677 8124 1447 122% 

57

Baltursol[/t] 104 22 82 7354 8422 1068 115% 

58

Camargo[/t] 89 18 71 6566 7854 1288 120% 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 26 8 18 7166 8374 1208 117% 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 59 10 49 7851 9773 1922 124% 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 61 11 50 7062 8298 1236 118% 

62

Kawana [/t] 225 56 169 6650 7815 1165 118% 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 91 31 60 6570 7867 1297 120% 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 90 29 61 6719 7872 1153 117% 

65

Inverness[/t] 74 15 59 7647 9228 1581 121% 

66

Rye Old[/t] 37 9 28 6774 7684 910 113% 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 36 8 28 7079 8443 1364 119% 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 70 22 48 6925 7863 938 114% 

69

Prestwick[/t] 37 7 30 6636 7656 1020 115% 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 113 45 68 6617 7798 1181 118% 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 140 57 83 6845 8090 1245 118% 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 104 35 69 6491 7524 1033 116% 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 56 20 36 7273 8556 1283 118% 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 0 0 0 0 0 0% 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 70 17 53 7223 8993 1770 125% 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 99 17 82 7197 8626 1429 120% 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 122 39 83 7154 8529 1375 119% 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 74 21 53 6798 8131 1333 120% 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 46 7 39 7289 8541 1252 117% 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 105 35 70 7246 8676 1430 120% 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 73 20 53 7205 8832 1627 123% 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 100 18 82 7631 9206 1575 121% 

83

Ellerston [/t] 155 75 80 7312 9165 1853 125% 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 158 110 48 7502 8943 1441 119% 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 80 35 45 7491 9027 1536 121% 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 71 15 56 6806 8018 1212 118% 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 74 19 55 6841 7920 1079 116% 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 95 35 60 6518 7389 871 113% 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 86 21 65 6739 7748 1009 115% 

90

Peachtree[/t] 120 28 92 7370 8907 1537 121% 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 72 24 48 6904 8144 1240 118% 

92

Old Town[/t] 123 25 98 6815 7853 1038 115% 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 142 56 86 7139 8872 1733 124% 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 70 14 56 6589 7588 999 115% 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 44 10 34 6635 7456 821 112% 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 142 61 81 7149 8581 1432 120% 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 0 0 0 0 0 0% 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 95 47 48 7213 9248 2035 128% 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 90 26 64 7123 8248 1125 116% 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 79 20 59 7477 8911 1434 119% 

[Jeff Schley]

Let me try and isolate each column.  Here is the Top 100 based on total meters ascent as per PV.  FYI St. Patricks, Ardfin, Les Bordes don't have their course yet measured in PV.  The value is the number after the brackets /t. The number above is the GM ranking.

 

Rank	Course	Total Ascent
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 23 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 26 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 30 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 36 

66

Rye Old[/t] 37 

69

Prestwick[/t] 37 

56

Maidstone[/t] 39 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 40 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 41 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 44 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 46 

35

North Berwick[/t] 49 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 51 

18

Turnberry[/t] 52 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 54 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 56 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 56 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 56 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 58 

11

Muirfield[/t] 59 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 59 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 59 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 60 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 60 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 60 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 61 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 61 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 65 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 69 

5

NGLA [/t] 70 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 70 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 70 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 70 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 71 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 71 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 72 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 72 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 73 

65

Inverness[/t] 74 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 74 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 74 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 75 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 75 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 78 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 79 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 80 

37

Hirono[/t] 82 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 83 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 83 

36

Lahinch[/t] 83 

45

Garden City [/t] 86 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 86 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 88 

58

Camargo[/t] 89 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 90 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 90 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 91 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 92 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 94 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 95 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 95 

32

Seminole[/t] 96 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 97 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 99 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 100 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 100 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 103 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 104 

57

Baltursol[/t] 104 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 104 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 105 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 105 

52

Bethpage[/t] 106 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 110 

47

New South Wales[/t] 111 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 113 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 114 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 118 

90

Peachtree[/t] 120 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 122 

92

Old Town[/t] 123 

34

San Francisco[/t] 124 

8

Oakmont[/t] 125 

9

Augusta National [/t] 136 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 140 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 142 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 142 

27

Riviera[/t] 144 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 145 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 151 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 152 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 152 

83

Ellerston [/t] 155 

13

Merion [/t] 157 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 158 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 164 

62

Kawana [/t] 225 

[Jeff Schley]

Here is the elevation difference from smallest to largest as per PV. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the elevation difference.
 

Rank	Course	Elev. Diff.
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 4 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 5 

56

Maidstone[/t] 6 

69

Prestwick[/t] 7 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 7 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 7 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 8 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 8 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 8 

35

North Berwick[/t] 8 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 8 

66

Rye Old[/t] 9 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 10 

18

Turnberry[/t] 10 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 10 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 10 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 10 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 11 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 12 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 12 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 13 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 14 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 14 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 14 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 14 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 15 

65

Inverness[/t] 15 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 15 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 16 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 16 

5

NGLA [/t] 17 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 17 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 17 

36

Lahinch[/t] 18 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 18 

58

Camargo[/t] 18 

32

Seminole[/t] 18 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 18 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 19 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 19 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 20 

11

Muirfield[/t] 20 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 20 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 20 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 21 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 21 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 21 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 21 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 21 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 22 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 22 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 22 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 22 

57

Baltursol[/t] 22 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 23 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 24 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 24 

92

Old Town[/t] 25 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 26 

8

Oakmont[/t] 27 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 27 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 28 

90

Peachtree[/t] 28 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 29 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 29 

52

Bethpage[/t] 29 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 30 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 30 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 31 

45

Garden City [/t] 34 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 35 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 35 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 35 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 35 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 35 

37

Hirono[/t] 37 

13

Merion [/t] 37 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 39 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 41 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 42 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 45 

34

San Francisco[/t] 45 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 47 

27

Riviera[/t] 47 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 47 

47

New South Wales[/t] 49 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 50 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 52 

9

Augusta National [/t] 55 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 56 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 56 

62

Kawana [/t] 56 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 57 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 61 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 66 

83

Ellerston [/t] 75 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 110 

[Jeff Schley]

Ascent greater than the elevation difference sorted by smallest to largest. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the ascent greater than the elevation difference.

 

Rank	Course	Ascent > Elev.
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 18 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 19 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 25 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 28 

66

Rye Old[/t] 28 

69

Prestwick[/t] 30 

56

Maidstone[/t] 33 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 33 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 33 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 34 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 36 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 37 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 39 

11

Muirfield[/t] 39 

35

North Berwick[/t] 41 

18

Turnberry[/t] 42 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 43 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 44 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 44 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 44 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 44 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 44 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 45 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 45 

37

Hirono[/t] 45 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 46 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 48 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 48 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 48 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 48 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 48 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 48 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 48 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 49 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 50 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 50 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 50 

45

Garden City [/t] 52 

5

NGLA [/t] 53 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 53 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 53 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 53 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 53 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 55 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 55 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 56 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 56 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 58 

65

Inverness[/t] 59 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 59 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 59 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 60 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 60 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 60 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 61 

47

New South Wales[/t] 62 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 63 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 64 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 64 

36

Lahinch[/t] 65 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 65 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 68 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 69 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 69 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 70 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 70 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 70 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 70 

58

Camargo[/t] 71 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 76 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 76 

52

Bethpage[/t] 77 

32

Seminole[/t] 78 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 78 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 79 

34

San Francisco[/t] 79 

83

Ellerston [/t] 80 

9

Augusta National [/t] 81 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 81 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 82 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 82 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 82 

57

Baltursol[/t] 82 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 83 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 83 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 86 

90

Peachtree[/t] 92 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 95 

27

Riviera[/t] 97 

92

Old Town[/t] 98 

8

Oakmont[/t] 98 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 98 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 102 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 105 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 118 

13

Merion [/t] 120 

62

Kawana [/t] 169 

[Jeff Schley]

Playing distance of the longest tees on the course from smallest to largest. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the playing distance of the course.

 

Rank	Course	Play Dist.
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 6318 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 6491 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 6504 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 6506 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 6518 

58

Camargo[/t] 6566 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 6570 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 6588 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 6589 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 6604 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 6617 

35

North Berwick[/t] 6622 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 6635 

69

Prestwick[/t] 6636 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 6644 

62

Kawana [/t] 6650 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 6652 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 6655 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 6666 

56

Maidstone[/t] 6677 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 6686 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 6719 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 6738 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 6739 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 6745 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 6757 

34

San Francisco[/t] 6757 

66

Rye Old[/t] 6774 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 6784 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 6798 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 6806 

92

Old Town[/t] 6815 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 6841 

47

New South Wales[/t] 6842 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 6845 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 6851 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 6904 

45

Garden City [/t] 6904 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 6925 

5

NGLA [/t] 6932 

36

Lahinch[/t] 6932 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 6945 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 6955 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 6966 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 6979 

13

Merion [/t] 7025 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 7062 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 7079 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 7096 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 7096 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 7123 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 7124 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 7128 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 7139 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 7149 

37

Hirono[/t] 7151 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 7154 

11

Muirfield[/t] 7156 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 7165 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 7166 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 7180 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 7187 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 7193 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 7197 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 7205 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 7213 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 7223 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 7246 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 7258 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 7273 

8

Oakmont[/t] 7286 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 7289 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 7292 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 7292 

32

Seminole[/t] 7300 

83

Ellerston [/t] 7312 

57

Baltursol[/t] 7354 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 7354 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 7362 

90

Peachtree[/t] 7370 

18

Turnberry[/t] 7385 

27

Riviera[/t] 7403 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 7411 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 7433 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 7442 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 7444 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 7449 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 7473 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 7477 

52

Bethpage[/t] 7483 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 7491 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 7502 

9

Augusta National [/t] 7558 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 7571 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 7631 

65

Inverness[/t] 7647 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 7851 

[Jeff Schley]

Total walking distance as per PV. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the total walking distance of the course.
 

Rank	Course	Walking Dist.
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 7307 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 7389 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 7456 

35

North Berwick[/t] 7503 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 7520 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 7524 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 7588 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 7610 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 7648 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 7649 

69

Prestwick[/t] 7656 

66

Rye Old[/t] 7684 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 7714 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 7744 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 7748 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 7749 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 7790 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 7798 

62

Kawana [/t] 7815 

92

Old Town[/t] 7853 

58

Camargo[/t] 7854 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 7859 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 7863 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 7867 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 7872 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 7874 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 7920 

5

NGLA [/t] 7924 

45

Garden City [/t] 7954 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 7974 

34

San Francisco[/t] 7983 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 7993 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 8018 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 8039 

36

Lahinch[/t] 8048 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 8081 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 8085 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 8087 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 8090 

47

New South Wales[/t] 8109 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 8119 

56

Maidstone[/t] 8124 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 8131 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 8133 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 8144 

37

Hirono[/t] 8167 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 8191 

32

Seminole[/t] 8233 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 8248 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 8276 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 8298 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 8374 

13

Merion [/t] 8375 

57

Baltursol[/t] 8422 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 8423 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 8443 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 8492 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 8499 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 8505 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 8513 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 8529 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 8541 

27

Riviera[/t] 8554 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 8556 

11

Muirfield[/t] 8563 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 8581 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 8590 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 8598 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 8609 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 8616 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 8626 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 8672 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 8674 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 8675 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 8676 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 8680 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 8817 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 8819 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 8825 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 8832 

8

Oakmont[/t] 8842 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 8872 

9

Augusta National [/t] 8897 

90

Peachtree[/t] 8907 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 8911 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 8943 

52

Bethpage[/t] 8966 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 8993 

18

Turnberry[/t] 9018 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 9027 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 9044 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 9083 

83

Ellerston [/t] 9165 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 9206 

65

Inverness[/t] 9228 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 9248 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 9773 

[Jeff Schley]

Total distance from green to next tee. Subtracted the total playing distance from the total walking distance. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the total walking distance from green to next tee for the course.
 

Rank	Course	Tee Dist.
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 821 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 871 

35

North Berwick[/t] 881 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 895 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 904 

66

Rye Old[/t] 910 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 916 

32

Seminole[/t] 933 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 938 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 989 

5

NGLA [/t] 992 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 999 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 1009 

37

Hirono[/t] 1016 

69

Prestwick[/t] 1020 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 1022 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 1026 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 1033 

92

Old Town[/t] 1038 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 1038 

45

Garden City [/t] 1050 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 1059 

57

Baltursol[/t] 1068 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 1070 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 1073 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 1078 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 1079 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 1094 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 1101 

36

Lahinch[/t] 1116 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 1121 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 1125 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 1135 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 1137 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 1142 

27

Riviera[/t] 1151 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 1153 

62

Kawana [/t] 1165 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 1174 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 1180 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 1181 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 1208 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 1212 

34

San Francisco[/t] 1226 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 1230 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 1236 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 1240 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 1245 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 1245 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 1252 

47

New South Wales[/t] 1267 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 1283 

58

Camargo[/t] 1288 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 1295 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 1297 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 1301 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 1322 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 1324 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 1326 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 1330 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 1333 

9

Augusta National [/t] 1339 

13

Merion [/t] 1350 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 1364 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 1368 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 1375 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 1382 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 1383 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 1389 

11

Muirfield[/t] 1407 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 1417 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 1418 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 1422 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 1429 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 1430 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 1432 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 1434 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 1441 

56

Maidstone[/t] 1447 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 1447 

52

Bethpage[/t] 1483 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 1494 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 1536 

90

Peachtree[/t] 1537 

8

Oakmont[/t] 1556 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 1575 

65

Inverness[/t] 1581 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 1600 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 1610 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 1626 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 1627 

18

Turnberry[/t] 1633 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 1733 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 1770 

83

Ellerston [/t] 1853 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 1922 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 2035 

[Jeff Schley]

% over the playing distance that the total walking distance is. The number above is the GM ranking and value after the brackets is the total % over playing distance.

 

Rank	Course	% over
55

St. Patricks - not listed[/t][/t] 0% 

74

Ardfin - not listed[/t] 0% 

96

Les Bordes - not listed[/t] 0% 

95

Utrechtse De Pan[/t] 112% 

32

Seminole[/t] 113% 

19

Chicago GC [/t] 113% 

35

North Berwick[/t] 113% 

88

St George's Hill[/t] 113% 

43

Somerset Hills[/t] 113% 

66

Rye Old[/t] 113% 

68

Winged Foot East[/t] 114% 

16

Fishers Island [/t] 114% 

37

Hirono[/t] 114% 

46

Southern Hills[/t] 114% 

5

NGLA [/t] 114% 

1

Pine Valley [/t] 114% 

57

Baltursol[/t] 115% 

17

Pinehurst No. 2[/t] 115% 

31

Oakland Hills[/t] 115% 

10

Sand Hills [/t] 115% 

89

Yeamans Hall[/t] 115% 

94

Royal Melbourne East[/t] 115% 

45

Garden City [/t] 115% 

92

Old Town[/t] 115% 

69

Prestwick[/t] 115% 

21

Friar's Head[/t] 115% 

39

Carnoustie[/t] 115% 

2

Cypress Point [/t] 116% 

27

Riviera[/t] 116% 

50

Swinley Forest[/t] 116% 

87

Quaker Ridge[/t] 116% 

99

St George's Golf[/t] 116% 

72

Myopia Hunt[/t] 116% 

36

Lahinch[/t] 116% 

24

Ballybunion[/t] 116% 

49

Shoreacres [/t] 116% 

14

Pebble Beach[/t] 117% 

44

Cabot Cliffs[/t] 117% 

59

Royal Troon[/t] 117% 

23

Tara Iti [/t] 117% 

7

Royal Melbourne West[/t] 117% 

64

Sunningdale New[/t] 117% 

79

Royal Liverpool [/t] 117% 

61

Woodhll Spa Hotchkin[/t] 118% 

62

Kawana [/t] 118% 

41

Morfontaine[/t] 118% 

73

Ohoopee Match Club[/t] 118% 

9

Augusta National [/t] 118% 

86

Koninklijke Haagsche[/t] 118% 

70

Cape Wickham[/t] 118% 

26

Prairie Dunes[/t] 118% 

91

Bandon Trails[/t] 118% 

20

Los Angeles North[/t] 118% 

34

San Francisco[/t] 118% 

3

St. Andrews TOC[/t] 118% 

54

Ballyneal[/t] 118% 

71

Sleepy Hollow [/t] 118% 

25

Winged Foot West[/t] 118% 

47

New South Wales[/t] 119% 

40

The CC at Brookline [/t] 119% 

15

Royal Portrush[/t] 119% 

29

Crystal Downs [/t] 119% 

38

Barnbougle Dunes[/t] 119% 

100

The Golf Club[/t] 119% 

84

Rock Creek Cattle [/t] 119% 

13

Merion [/t] 119% 

77

Castle Stuart[/t] 119% 

67

Royal Lytham & St Annes[/t] 119% 

6

Royal County Down[/t] 119% 

48

Cal Club of SF[/t] 120% 

78

Cabot Links[/t] 120% 

58

Camargo[/t] 120% 

11

Muirfield[/t] 120% 

12

Royal Dornoch [/t] 120% 

80

Bandon Dunes[/t] 120% 

63

Curden Bay[/t] 120% 

51

Cape Kidnappers[/t] 120% 

22

Kingston Heath[/t] 120% 

52

Bethpage[/t] 120% 

76

Oak Hill East[/t] 120% 

30

Sunningdale Old[/t] 120% 

96

Olympic Club[/t] 120% 

85

Muirfield Village[/t] 121% 

82

Whistling Straits[/t] 121% 

65

Inverness[/t] 121% 

90

Peachtree[/t] 121% 

42

Royal Birkdale[/t] 121% 

8

Oakmont[/t] 121% 

53

Portmarnock[/t] 121% 

4

Shinnecock [/t] 122% 

28

Pacific Dunes[/t] 122% 

56

Maidstone[/t] 122% 

18

Turnberry[/t] 122% 

81

Kingsbarns [/t] 123% 

33

Royal St. George's[/t] 123% 

93

Nine Bridges[/t] 124% 

60

Kiawah Island Ocean[/t] 124% 

75

Casa De Campo[/t] 125% 

83

Ellerston [/t] 125% 

98

Diamante Dunes[/t] 128% 

[Jeff Schley]

Summary of all data
For those who want the down and dirty I have tried to extract some takeaways.
5 Biggest per Total Ascent (meters)

• Kawana - 225
• Crystal Downs - 164
• Rock Creek Cattle - 158
• Merion - 157
• Ellerston - 155

5 Smallest per Total Ascent (meters)

• Portmarnock - 23
• Royal Troon - 26
• Royal St. George's - 30
• Royal Lytham & St. Annes - 36
• Rye Old - 37

5 Largest in Elevation Difference, low point of course to high point (meters)

• Rock Creek Cattle - 110
• Ellerston - 75
• Crystal Downs - 66
• Olympic Club - 61
• Sleepy Hollow - 57

5 Smallest in Elevation Difference, low point of the course to the high point (meters)

• Portmarnock - 4
• Royal St. George's - 5
• Maidstone - 6
• Prestwick - 7
• TOC - 7
• Royal Liverpool - 7

5 Biggest for Total Ascent meters > than Elevation Difference (meters)

• Kawana - 169
• Merion - 120
• Somerset Hills - 118
• Los Angeles North - 105
• Cypress Point - 102

5 Smallest for Total Ascent meters > than Elevation Difference (meters)

• Royal Troon - 18
• Portmarnock - 19
• Royal St. George's - 25
• Royal Lytham & St. Annes - 28
• Rye Old - 28

5 Longest Courses (yards)

• Kiawah Island Ocean - 7851
• Inverness - 7647
• Whistling Straits - 7631
• Pinehurst No. 2 - 7571
• Augusta National - 7558

5 Shortest Courses (yards)

• Swinley Forest - 6318
• Myopia Hunt - 6491
• Crystal Downs - 6504
• Mortontaine - 6506
• St George's Hill - 6518

5 Longest Total Walking Distance (yards)

• Kiawah Island Ocean - 9773
• Diamante Dunes - 9248
• Inverness - 9228
• Whistling Straits - 9206
• Ellerston - 9165

5 Shortest Total Walking Distance (yards)

• Swinley Forest - 7307
• St George's Hill - 7389
• Utreshtse De Pan - 7456
• North Berwick - 7503
• Fishers Island - 7520

5 Longest total distance walking greens to tees (yards)

• Diamante Dunes - 2035
• Kiawah Island Ocean - 1922
• Ellerston - 1853
• Casa De Campo - 1770
• Nine Bridges - 1733

5 Shortest total distance walking greens to tees (yards)

• Utrechtse De Pan - 821
• St George's Hill - 871
• North Berwick - 881
• Chicago GC - 895
• Somerset Hills - 904

5 largest % of green-tee walking distance over playing distance

• Diamante Dunes - 128%
• Ellerston - 125%
• Casa De Campo - 125%
• Kiawah Island Ocean - 124%
• Nine Bridges - 124%

5 smallest % of green-tee walking distance over playing distance

• Utrechtse De Pan - 112%
• Seminole - 113%
• Chicago GC - 113%
• North Berwick - 113%
• St George's Hill - 113%
• Someset Hills - 113%
• Rye Old - 113%

[Jeff Schley]

Dear all.  I'm willing to email the spreadsheet to anyone who asks. Would be great to put the information into more hands who may be bored out of their mind, I mean curious  .

I'm trying to come up with a custom "Rigor Factor". Given how long the course is, the green-tee transitions are, and the amount of uphill climbing is needed........ a formula to capture that. 


I started, but then I thought this is only part of it and constant. What about weather?  Time of the year you play a course and customize the the "Rigor Factor" based on which month of the year you play the course. Temp and humidity or heat index is important. You play The Quarry at La Quinta in January is very different from July! Well maybe you don't even attempt to play it in July, for anyone with the $$$$ to belong to The Quarry is probably at The Valley Club or Gozzer Ranch in the summer!

What do you guys think? Waste of time or interesting?

[Matt MacIver]

Whoa!  See you pulled an all-nighter!  Lots to digest here…four of the longest are PGA Tour stops and two from Dye.  Yep, lots of flat links with short walks. Pebble isn’t as hilly as others, ok. Kiawah’s distance from 9-10 was intentionally built long such that they shuttle players across the property.

[Tim Martin]

Holy S- - t!!!!! Without diving too deep so far there’s an awful lot of information on subject matter that hasn’t been been made available as it pertains to specific courses. Lots of interesting comparisons and some surprises that jump out with a quick scan. Well played and thanks for the hard work that went into this.

[Mark_Fine]

Wow!  Very interesting and a great set of data to reference.  Thanks Jeff!!! 

[Adam Uttley]

Very interesting Jeff.  A couple of questions:


I expected somewhere like TOC to be much shorter from tee to green but I guess this is based on The Open tees so lots of walks back to tee boxes?


Does total ascent just take the elevation of green and tee and derive a number assuming a that descent / ascent to be level? The one that jumped out was Rye, which crosses a large line of dunes in the middle of a couple of holes.  It makes it quite a hike even though greens and tees maybe at similar levels.  Similarly, would a hole like the Alps / Himalayas come out as fairly flat?  Just some odd rankings of ascent where the numbers seem to differ from experience that I’m trying to reconcile.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:
I think the green to tee walk data is very skewed by the insistence on using the furthest back tees (which hardly anyone plays) as the standard.  As Adam says, you can hardly have an easier walk than The Old Course at St Andrews, yet it comes out in the middle of your list.


In some cases this will also throw off the total climb figures significantly.

[Sean_A]

I still can't see how Merion has 500 feet of climbing. I don't remember anything like that sort of walk.

Ciao

[Jim Hoak]

I'm impressed--and overwhelmed--by the data.  Waiting to see some good analysis--and conclusions!

[Tom_Doak]

I won't try to do total ascent for St. Patrick's because I am not sure exactly how it is being calculated, but the elevation change is 68 feet [22 m] from the 16th tee at 86 feet to the 4th fairway at 18 feet.  I'm not surprised that is more than all the ranked UK links courses except for Cruden Bay and Castle Stuart.  It's just above the midpoint for the top 100 overall.

[Stewart Abramson]

I still can't see how Merion has 500 feet of climbing. I don't remember anything like that sort of walk.

Ciao

That's part of the beauty of Merion. Can't say it's 500 feet, but it's a lot. The elevation is subtle in some places and spread across many holes. IIRC, there are uphill walks on parts or all of #2, #3, #4, #7, #10, #12, #13, #14, #16 and #18

[Sean_A]

I still can't see how Merion has 500 feet of climbing. I don't remember anything like that sort of walk.

Ciao

That's part of the beauty of Merion. Can't say it's 500 feet, but it's a lot. The elevation is subtle in some places and spread across many holes. IIRC, there are uphill walks on parts or all of #2, #3, #4, #7, #10, #12, #13, #14, #16 and #18

Thats an average of 28 feet a hole over 18 holes. Not far off half the holes are either flattish or downhill. So we are not looking at an average of 50 plus feet over almost golf the course. What do you reckon is highest ascent? I have no memory of any seriously uphill shots.. maybe 3, 16 and 18, but I would have said they were maybe 25 feet ascent.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

From reading the description on the Provisualizer site, I think 17 at Merion is a good example: (Measurements from Google Earth)

17 tee: 344 feet
17 green: 326 feet
Lowest area on path between tee and green: 308 feet

So even thou the hole overall, plays nearly 20 feet downhill (344-326), you first descend to 308 feet and then climb back up to the green at 326 feet.

So 17 would include 18 feet of climbing (326-208), even though overall it plays 18 feet downhill (344-326)

[Tom_Doak]

I still can't see how Merion has 500 feet of climbing. I don't remember anything like that sort of walk.

Ciao

That's part of the beauty of Merion. Can't say it's 500 feet, but it's a lot. The elevation is subtle in some places and spread across many holes. IIRC, there are uphill walks on parts or all of #2, #3, #4, #7, #10, #12, #13, #14, #16 and #18

Thats an average of 28 feet a hole over 18 holes. Not far off half the holes are either flattish or downhill. So we are not looking at an average of 50 plus feet over almost golf the course. What do you reckon is highest ascent? I have no memory of any seriously uphill shots.. maybe 3, 16 and 18, but I would have said they were maybe 25 feet ascent.

Ciao

Sean:


I was surprised by those figures, too, so I went to look on Google Earth.  The highest point is 16 tee at 390 feet; the lowest is 11 green at 286.  But then the 6th green is also 369 feet.


Biggest elevation changes:


2nd (45'), 3rd (17'), 5th (22'), 6th (25'), 10th (down 30 to stream then up 28'), 12th (15'), 14th (38'), 15th (22').


But those only add up to half the total cited, and I don't think the green to tee walks are enough to make up the other half.

[Kalen Braley]

I still can't see how Merion has 500 feet of climbing. I don't remember anything like that sort of walk.

Ciao

That's part of the beauty of Merion. Can't say it's 500 feet, but it's a lot. The elevation is subtle in some places and spread across many holes. IIRC, there are uphill walks on parts or all of #2, #3, #4, #7, #10, #12, #13, #14, #16 and #18

Thats an average of 28 feet a hole over 18 holes. Not far off half the holes are either flattish or downhill. So we are not looking at an average of 50 plus feet over almost golf the course. What do you reckon is highest ascent? I have no memory of any seriously uphill shots.. maybe 3, 16 and 18, but I would have said they were maybe 25 feet ascent.

Ciao

Sean:


I was surprised by those figures, too, so I went to look on Google Earth.  The highest point is 16 tee at 390 feet; the lowest is 11 green at 286.  But then the 6th green is also 369 feet.

Biggest elevation changes:

2nd (45'), 3rd (17'), 5th (22'), 6th (25'), 10th (down 30 to stream then up 28'), 12th (15'), 14th (38'), 15th (22').

But those only add up to half the total cited, and I don't think the green to tee walks are enough to make up the other half.

Tom,

But this tool is not just doing net calculations from high points to low.

For example if you had a tee and green at the same elevation, but had to walk thru 2 valleys along the way that went 25 feet down and back up, the total for the hole would be 50 feet of climbing even thou start and finish is a net zero difference.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Jeff--


really interesting.  like anything else the devil is in the details.  2 questions came to me:


1.  when you measure distance walked on a hole, what "path" is assumed if there is water that must be crossed?  good example is par 3 #17 at TPC Sawgrass...does this assume the player is named Moses and walks over water for about 135 yards, or that he is a mere mortal and takes the walking path which is probably over 200 yards?  same question applies in walks from green to next tee...for example from 16th green at TPC Sawgrass to 17th tee


2.  there are a huge number of holes where it is either (1) sharply uphill off the tee and then downhill or (2) sharply downhill off the tee and then uphill (#1 at ANGC off the tee is a great example of the second case).  So let's assume that the drive landing area in both of these examples is 2 meters higher (in altitude) that the back tees.  As I understand it, your methodology would say the player walked 2 meters uphill...when he probably walked more like 10-meters or so uphill partially offset by 8 meters downhill.  One way to "correct" for this might be to measure altitude every 5 meters or so along the ground...which would get a much closer approximation of the actual vertical climb.  It is important to remember that downhill walks do not "save energy" to offset uphill walks.  In fact...I believe downhill walks are more strenuous than flat walks as your legs must act as "brakes"...which is probably why people who run marathons have real trouble walking downstairs a day or two after a marathon).


believe all of above and other questions likely correctable...just that it will make the data gathering and algorithms more complicated and require additional research...like asking a physiologist about stress of downhill walks