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Thomas Dai

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Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« on: November 17, 2021, 03:00:13 AM »
Spotted this splendid 1st at Cape Wickham photo by Gary Lisbon in the Golf Mag Top-100 feature/thread.
Later edit - the thread/list -see #70 - https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-courses-world-ranking-2021-2022/?amp=1
Love the green with the 'buried elephant' part-way onto the putting surface.
Question 1 - are features akin to this used enough within putting surfaces?
Question 2 - around the edges of greens should there be more humps and less bunkers?
atb
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 05:51:19 PM by Thomas Dai »
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Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 10:41:55 AM »
Thomas,

Seems like such a nifty little feature especially when the ground game must be used on the approach...even with a wedge in hand.

Just a few inches could make the difference in chasing a back hole location to either side of the green. But it could also be used as a backstop for the front pin pictured.

These types of features are far less useful on soft courses.


Cheers
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 10:44:43 AM by Will Lozier »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2021, 10:49:33 AM »
The good news is, putting a knob in the middle of the green is the best way to both require exceedingly good approach shot accuracy, and is also the best way to foil good putters, who can judge a constant break, but have trouble judging a break that occurs half way to the hole, because they won't know exact ball speed.


The bad news is, putting a knob in the middle of the green is the best way to both require exceedingly good approach shot accuracy, and is also the best way to foil good putters, who can judge a constant break, but have trouble judging a break that occurs half way to the hole, because they won't know exact ball speed.


More good news is that a knob serves similarly to a tier or valley in dividing a green, and is more subtle.  I believe (but could be wrong) that they fell out of favor at least partially due to the sand based USGA greens because they tend to overly dry out and require hand watering.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2021, 12:05:18 PM »
The 166-130 yard 4th at Rustic Canyon has wonderful buried elephant that makes a huge green play tricky and small.
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Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2021, 12:32:59 PM »
Quote from: Robert Mercer Deruntz on November 17, 2021, 12:05:18 PM
The 166-130 yard 4th at Rustic Canyon has wonderful buried elephant that makes a huge green play tricky and small.


12 at Rustic comes to mind for me.
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Jeff Kallberg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2021, 12:33:30 PM »
How often do the humps result from the elephant having already been buried (as it were)--the architect working with some pre-existing landscape condition?  Or are the humps typically an intentionally-built aspect of the design?
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2021, 12:38:48 PM »
Almost always intentional Jeff, but often not just on a whim. They are a good way of tying two levels together without resorting to a more obvious tier… often the tier is there but it is the accentuated mound that draws the eye.
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2021, 12:46:47 PM »
I love that feature on a green.  In Atlanta, Peachtree Golf Club's second hole has an elephant and I think the old 18th hole a Pine Valley had a controversial "hump" in the middle.  Not sure of its size but it was certainly "big enough" to get removed/softened?  I may be wrong about that??



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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 12:56:35 PM »
Opposite from Chris, I generally hate this feature on a green, because they generally look contrived/artificial.  But I guess like most things, the good ones are fine, but I've seen too many that aren't.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 03:39:36 PM »
Quote from: Chris Cupit on November 17, 2021, 12:46:47 PM
I love that feature on a green.  In Atlanta, Peachtree Golf Club's second hole has an elephant and I think the old 18th hole a Pine Valley had a controversial "hump" in the middle.  Not sure of its size but it was certainly "big enough" to get removed/softened?  I may be wrong about that??


Chris, I had forgotten about that one but did love it, too.  It is far enough forward that it really only separates the front pin, if I recall.


I think the overall look may be tied to the surrounds, a la, a Sand Hills type site with lots of humps, a green may almost need something like that to be a scaled down version of nature.  On a subdivision course, or site with gentle rolls, it might tend to look more out of place, but it would be site specific.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 03:41:15 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MKrohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2021, 04:45:50 PM »
I prefer my elephants concrete and away from the greens. Bayview GC, Sydney Aust.



The Bayview Golf Club Elephant Statues - Bayview Golf

Thomas, have only been once but ended up in the greenside bunker on the 1st at CW, is the hole in the photo the 2nd?
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Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2021, 05:34:27 PM »
   I think I remember Forsgate having a beauty.
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Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2021, 05:40:40 PM »
Need to remember maintenance crew when setting slopes of the dimples.
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Jordan Standefer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2021, 07:37:29 PM »
Quote from: Mark Kiely on November 17, 2021, 12:32:59 PM
Quote from: Robert Mercer Deruntz on November 17, 2021, 12:05:18 PM
The 166-130 yard 4th at Rustic Canyon has wonderful buried elephant that makes a huge green play tricky and small.
12 at Rustic comes to mind for me.
The 4th at Rustic was the first to stick out for me, but 12 works, as well.
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Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2022, 09:06:35 PM »
I love these types of greens. Here are few nice ones...
Lost Dunes

Arcadia Bluffs

Most of my golfing friends cannot stand these types of greens, me? I welcome the challenge!
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Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Anthony Gray

Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2022, 09:17:44 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on November 17, 2021, 10:49:33 AM
The good news is, putting a knob in the middle of the green is the best way to both require exceedingly good approach shot accuracy, and is also the best way to foil good putters, who can judge a constant break, but have trouble judging a break that occurs half way to the hole, because they won't know exact ball speed.


The bad news is, putting a knob in the middle of the green is the best way to both require exceedingly good approach shot accuracy, and is also the best way to foil good putters, who can judge a constant break, but have trouble judging a break that occurs half way to the hole, because they won't know exact ball speed.


More good news is that a knob serves similarly to a tier or valley in dividing a green, and is more subtle.  I believe (but could be wrong) that they fell out of favor at least partially due to the sand based USGA greens because they tend to overly dry out and require hand watering.


 Excellent Jeff. Had one at my home course. The mover kept scuffing the top of it and it never had grass on it.
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Anthony Gray

Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2022, 09:19:05 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on November 17, 2021, 03:00:13 AM
Spotted this splendid 1st at Cape Wickham photo by Gary Lisbon in the Golf Mag Top-100 feature/thread.
Later edit - the thread/list -see #70 - https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-courses-world-ranking-2021-2022/?amp=1
Love the green with the 'buried elephant' part-way onto the putting surface.
Question 1 - are features akin to this used enough within putting surfaces?
Question 2 - around the edges of greens should there be more humps and less bunkers?
atb



 Yes and yes. Just plain fun and adds interest and variety. I would image work better with slower greens.



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R_Paulis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2022, 10:11:19 PM »
Quote from: Jordan Standefer on November 17, 2021, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Mark Kiely on November 17, 2021, 12:32:59 PM
Quote from: Robert Mercer Deruntz on November 17, 2021, 12:05:18 PM
The 166-130 yard 4th at Rustic Canyon has wonderful buried elephant that makes a huge green play tricky and small.
12 at Rustic comes to mind for me.
The 4th at Rustic was the first to stick out for me, but 12 works, as well.


Not sure of the "correct" definition of an elephant. RC #12 has a plateau at the top of the hump where the pin is occasionally placed. Yet to see RC #4 pin on the top of the hump...
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2022, 07:45:25 AM »
Holes, ‘pins’, don’t need to be positioned on top of the humps nor in hollows. Gradient within and as shoulders flowing into putting surfaces are important. Then there are the challenge, temptation, shotmakiing and course management skills involved, not just when a ball is on a green but also in playing approach shots into the most appropriate areas of the greens to have the most favourable first putt and even before that the positioning of tee shots to get the best angle for the approach shot. Chess on grass.
Atb
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Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2022, 12:46:05 PM »
The second hole at Bald Peak Colony Club (Ross) is a very easy par 5 that has something more like a "buried coffin" running somewhat diagonally through the right half of green.  It doesn't look at all natural, but it does make the hole just a bit harder and more strategic.   
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David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Buried elephants within greens and humps in general.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2022, 01:42:28 PM »
Quote from: Richard Hetzel on January 06, 2022, 09:06:35 PM
I love these types of greens. Here are few nice ones...
Lost Dunes[size=78%] [/size]

Most of my golfing friends cannot stand these types of greens, me? I welcome the challenge!


Agree completely. When greens are like those, my short-hitting self can compete with the best of golfers if I'm dialed in with the flat stick. It's all about reading those kinds of greens, and understanding that you may have to aim a foot outside on a 10-footer ... and HIT IT!!!
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