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jeffwarne

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Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« on: October 15, 2021, 07:49:27 PM »

With all the history, the knowledge and the respect for classic golf design, and the current difficulty of designing longer holes for elites who have high speed and skill..
why on par 5's, do we rarely see innovative, interesting or quirky design that really makes better players think


Huntington CC has two that are excellent, well designed, scary and thoughtful par 5's, at about 520 yards and 470 respectively.
7 plays up and over a ridge to a green at about the same level as the drive.
15 plays uphill mainly in the middle,with the green on the same plateau as the second shot with a severe rise on the second shot high enough to make seeing the layup or green area impossible.


Given the difficulty of posting photos, I have posted a link to the aerial.
The 520 yard par 5 seventh is the one farthest east , near the bottom right of the page with the long ,NARROW green, one that runs away from the player, with a distinct right to left tilt redanish.
The layup has to be placed in different places depending upon the pin, and while reachable, a pitch from the right is nearly impossible to hold, and a pitch from the left is difficult due to the narrowness,tilt/slop and well placed bunkers.
The second shot is blind as the hole plays up and over to a peak approximately where the road(which you barely notice) crosses, so an attempt to have a go or layup is quite dicey.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Huntington+Country+Club/@40.87903,-73.4468994,1317m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c258c4d2a590c3:0x33ba43f14c21a791!8m2!3d40.87


At the top left of the picture is the 470 yard par 5 15th, a tee shot that turns steeply uphll at about 230 yards from the tee, leaving a blind layup or second shot to a green banked hard against OB, where with certain pins, even a pitch or bunker shot is incredibly dicey with OB staring you in the face. Left is no good as the land falls away left of the green as well.

Sure both are reachable, but in ten or so plays in local section events with and against some pretty good players, I've rarely seen anyone on either in two, and not many birdies.

The 7th has such a well designed, UNUSUAL green and bunkering.
The 15th just tempts you with its length, but the lack of visibility and uber tight OB to the green just invites loose swings and weak layups-and again it requires multiple different layups for different pin positions.



7 and and 15 at HCC have no chance at overwhelming one with length,are highly playable for the shorter hitter, yet reward local knowledge, while playing massive tricks on your mind'e eye, nearly the last skill technology hasn't overcome(yet)


I'm sure there are some good par 5's built recently, but really, most of them are simply a cakewalk for the longer hitter and a slog for the shorter hitter, due to length, not quirk,nor clever green design, as a defense-and tend to be formulaic in their yardages from each respective tee.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 09:06:25 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2021, 10:55:18 PM »
Jeff,


I have not played that many modern courses and I am certainly not a long hitter, but I can think of a few holes that might speak to what you are discussing:


Blackwolf Run River 8
Streamsong Red 7
Pacific Dunes 12
Friar's Head 8
Bandon Trails 3 and 16


Streamsong Blue 17 probably is too long to qualify but probably meets the criterion except from the back tees.


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2021, 10:59:56 PM »
Thanks for that post, Jeff, and for those two specific examples in particular. It serves as a good occasion to ask the architects and industry professionals here why they don't (or don't nearly often enough) make the kind of design choices that would lead to such better & more interesting Par 5s than the ones I generally play.

Michael Felton

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2021, 12:09:57 AM »
Hi Jeff,


First of all, well played this week! Second, the 7th at HCC I think is a Road Hole template. HCC's in particular, the green is very narrow and a really tough approach with a long iron or fairway wood. It takes serious kahoonas to get it back close to a back pin even from thirty yards away.


Huntington is a really fun course. I've only had the chance to play it once, but thoroughly enjoyed it. It's littered with really good holes and both the ones you mentioned are in there. 15 is way harder than you'd guess based on the card. Great stuff!

Thomas Dai

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2021, 03:31:07 AM »
Can’t help but wonder if the holes were termed par-4’s would they mess differently with the players minds eye and expectations and the effect that might have on the players score on the other holes?
Atb

JJShanley

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2021, 05:52:53 AM »
I think 10 at Notre Dame, which typically plays as a par 4 in college events (and possibly for the U.S. Senior Open) but as a par 5 during daily play, got into my head. It was the only hole at Warren that I didn't ever birdie during my time in South Bend. I think the combination of more pronounced slopes than you have elsewhere, the water, and what looked to me like a change in direction over the creek meant I rarely felt comfortable over the second shot. (I typically played right of the green and tried to chip and putt rather than go for it in two.)


16 at Virginia Tech, the only Pete Dye course I've played, seemed to have bunkers what messed with your range perception, both at the green and about 120 yards out. By the time you get to the green you realize that you have room to try for it in two, but it doesn't seem that way from where your tee shot might end up. As I say, it's the only course of Pete Dye's that I have played, so that may be a typical feature for his work.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2021, 07:52:51 AM »

7th at Huntington CC


From the left side
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

jeffwarne

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2021, 08:40:50 AM »
Jeff,


I have not played that many modern courses and I am certainly not a long hitter, but I can think of a few holes that might speak to what you are discussing:


Blackwolf Run River 8
Streamsong Red 7
Pacific Dunes 12
Friar's Head 8
Bandon Trails 3 and 16


Streamsong Blue 17 probably is too long to qualify but probably meets the criterion except from the back tees.


Ira


Thanks for all the thoughtful responses.-and the pictures Ian
I've played all the holes Ira listed above except BR River, but really only know 12 at BD and 7 at FH(I think you meant 7) 8) well enough to opine.



Both holes Ira mentions and I know well are excellent par 5's with interesting greensites, FH's 7 being a particular cool green.
But neither hole strikes fear into te second shot for a decent player, or even a ton of thought.
The last time I played FH 7, after watching my son hit a second shot 3 wood right to left shot into a right pin to about 10 feet, I whipped a left to right driver off the deck onto the green to a semi right pin on the top plateau, with the only repercussion to be in the huge  bunker on the right if I flared it out-a slight miss right would kick left onto the green, a good faded shot would be really good, and a miss left would set up a good angle.
It's the kind've shot I would try as often in a casual game as I would down the stretch in a stroke play event.
A thrill to execute on such cool ground, but not much fear, and clearly doable with two different shot shapes and trajectories.


12 at PD is another cool hole, but again, the second shot I'm trying to get as close to the green(or on) as conditions allow, and not really thinking of a thoughtful layup unless I just can't reach, even then I'm just trying to get as close as I can.


In both cases, there's not the same amount of fear that I'll have no shot at birdie if I don't execute a great second shot, either as a layup dictated by pin, or going for it.


On both 7 and 15 at HCC, nearly every time I hit a good drive the green is potentially in reach(I'm 58 and not a bomber)but it takes a heck of a shot to get on the green, but more importantly, if one gets up near the green and the shot doesn't come off perfectly, birdie, or even par could become really dicey.


I have a couple of theories on why you wouldn't see such holes today
Both holes also utilize blindness, not always a great thing at a resort, with players having to walk up to check for clearance.
Liability could be an issue.
Secondly, the modern ball goes far, and not many architects are going to build a 470 par 5, and nowadays(and when they DO, there is another "pro" tee way back at least 520 OR the hole might be changed to par 4 at which point someone would suggest it is unfair and shorter tees would go in and the unique challenges such holes present would eventually be neutered by the fair police.
Third, I generally hate OB, but this is such a cool use of it on 15, but usually, for liability reasons, a new build would shy away from property lines being 10 feet from green edge(you could always have a "fake" OB stake or two ;) )

Finally, There is the fear that the owner or players won't accept such quirk in a new build, OR in the case of some new builds, the property is so good, it's difficult to fathom having OB that tight or some other odd feature on such good ground.




« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 11:33:30 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2021, 09:33:19 AM »
Jeff, yes, I meant FH7. I took your post less about striking fear than having the visuals cause some doubts about the right play.


I will try one more: Ballyneal 8. Fairway narrows for big driver. Green angles away. Over definitely is no fun, and right is not great. Layup varies with pin placement.


Ira




jeffwarne

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2021, 10:03:39 AM »
Jeff, yes, I meant FH7. I took your post less about striking fear than having the visuals cause some doubts about the right play.


I will try one more: Ballyneal 8. Fairway narrows for big driver. Green angles away. Over definitely is no fun, and right is not great. Layup varies with pin placement.


Ira


Sounds like a great hole.
Truthfully, there have been far more good "modern" par 5's(and golf in general) built in the last 25 years,and less of the in your face garbage of the 70's, 80's an 90's.
i'm still stunned how few super narrow,angled or severely sloped away greens I see.
I drive by 8 green(behind) at NGLA multiple times per month. and marvel every time at why we just don't see many greens like that, the only thing that even makes that a par 5 nowadays, and even that fallaway is somewhat subtle, but has dramatic effect on a full shot's stopping power.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 11:28:31 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2021, 10:34:58 AM »


I have a couple of theories on why you wouldn't see such holes today
Both holes also utilize blindness, not always a great thing at a resort, with players having to walk up to check for clearance.
Liability could be an issue.
Secondly, the modern ball goes far, and not many architects are going to build a 470 par 5, and nowadays(and when they DO, there is another "pro" tee way back at least 520 OR the hole might be changed to par 4 at which point someone would suggest it is unfair and shorter tees would go in and the unique challenges such holes present would eventually be neutered by the fair police.
Third, I generally hate OB, but this is such a cool use of it on 15, but usually, for liability reasons, a new build would shy away from property lines being 10 feet from green edge(you could always have a "fake" OB stake or two ;)

Finally, There is the fear that the owner or players won't accept such quirk in a new build, OR in the case of some new builds, the property is so good, it's difficult to fathom having OB that tight or some other odd feature on such good ground.


Yes, those are all among the reasons such holes are uncommon.


Generally, when I'm routing the holes, I'm trying to avoid the sort of blindness you speak of here.  It isn't a safety/liability issue so much as that I know players will think less of the hole because of it.  When it does happen, like at the 8th at Ballyneal, it was just a feature I tried to minimize but couldn't eliminate without moving earth that I didn't want to move.


I love to have a par-5 on my courses that's 500 yards or under; I would have said the 3rd at Pacific Dunes fit your criteria a lot better than the 12th, because it's shorter and because the hazards around the green can be pretty nasty.


And no, we don't have o.b. close to the green on modern courses too often.  I do love the 2nd at Talking Stick North where they declared the desert o.b., but I haven't had a situation where I thought drawing a line in the sand was appropriate.


Generally,

jeffwarne

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2021, 11:59:07 AM »


I have a couple of theories on why you wouldn't see such holes today
Both holes also utilize blindness, not always a great thing at a resort, with players having to walk up to check for clearance.
Liability could be an issue.
Secondly, the modern ball goes far, and not many architects are going to build a 470 par 5, and nowadays(and when they DO, there is another "pro" tee way back at least 520 OR the hole might be changed to par 4 at which point someone would suggest it is unfair and shorter tees would go in and the unique challenges such holes present would eventually be neutered by the fair police.
Third, I generally hate OB, but this is such a cool use of it on 15, but usually, for liability reasons, a new build would shy away from property lines being 10 feet from green edge(you could always have a "fake" OB stake or two ;)

Finally, There is the fear that the owner or players won't accept such quirk in a new build, OR in the case of some new builds, the property is so good, it's difficult to fathom having OB that tight or some other odd feature on such good ground.



Generally, when I'm routing the holes, I'm trying to avoid the sort of blindness you speak of here.  It isn't a safety/liability issue so much as that I know players will think less of the hole because of it.  When it does happen, like at the 8th at Ballyneal, it was just a feature I tried to minimize but couldn't eliminate without moving earth that I didn't want to move.


I love to have a par-5 on my courses that's 500 yards or under; I would have said the 3rd at Pacific Dunes.


Thanks Tom for chiming in.
It seems the ONLY way to create any doubt and apprehension about the second shot is blindness or randomness(super tight or pot bunkers with minimal space between)
Playing a blind shot is a developed skill, randomness not so much other either accepting the outcome or coming up with a less random alternative.


I should hate the 15th at HCC because it was just that indecision and blind unfamiliarity that potentially cost me an event there this week, making a three putt bogie while my fellow competitor(playing well ahead of me) birdied it and 18 to win.

Long story short, it was my indecision/lack of visibility about the second shot, and fear of the third, that made a routine layup and possible birdie MUCH harder, and way less obvious-all due to the design/tilt/slope of the green, hole and proximity to the edge of the property.
In reality, I was more afraid of the third shot with a full wedge tight to the OB than I was the second-not often does that happen .
i.e. I felt better about executing a driver off the deck to a narrowish target(the ground falls away left of the green as well) to reach greenside rough with a good angle and approach with a running short third or putt from the green itself, than I did a full wedge third with OB that tight.While I executed the shot exactly as I envisioned, I hit it into a place that it was unlikely that i would make birdie, leaving a 50 yard bunker greenside shot due to the extreme length of the green and back right OB guarded pin position, to a green tilted towards me me and to the left.
Translation, I let fear and indecision about a future shot put me in a postion to be randomized(a small bunker a long way from the pin)

Meanwhile, much like the 7th, a higher handicap can easily roll their second, third or fourth shot comfortable onto the green, especially a fade.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 08:13:37 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2021, 12:40:41 PM »
Randomness, quirk even, is an interesting mention above.
Cor example, when the ground is hard a ball can reaction in various random ways and various random directions even on moderate slopes. But firm hard ground, properly firm heard ground that is, not something sprinkled to look green, isn’t something that’s around much these days.
And whilst once upon a time machinery etc didn’t really exist, at or least wasn’t readily available on a economic enough price basis to remove quirky features, now the machines etc and their relative cost permits quirk to be removed if the decision is made to do so.
Atb

Daryl David

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2021, 04:59:34 PM »
I think #4 at Tumble Creek is an interesting example. It’s not long from the normal tees (525), but still reeks havoc with those that can’t manage the second shot as it is blind. When you go back to the tips (611), the elite players are enticed to try to get it over the ridge to allow a visible second short iron to the green. I sat and watched hours of US Open sectional qualifiers make 6 and 7 by blowing the drive right or left into the trees trying for the perfect tee shot that would hold a severely sloped area over the ridge. I should also mention that the green slopes a bit from front to back which really messes with approach shots.  The area behind the green gets a lot of action combined with lots of grumbling. 


I don’t consider Tumble #4 to be quirky, but it sure makes you think. It’s just a world class golf hole. Definitely one of Tom’s best Par 5’s.  Those that don’t think and just bomb, get punished. I like those kind of holes.

Joe Bausch

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Jay Mickle

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2021, 08:06:29 PM »
When it comes to high risk/reward par fives I don’t think I’ve seen anything better than the four par fives at Tobacco Road , holes 1, 4, 11 and 13.  For the long hitter there are opportunities for heroic shots that could surely lead to eagles, birdies, pars or triples. That Mike Strantz created 4 par 5s where the drive required all of the thought of the approach gives credence to his legacy.
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Brett Meyer

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2021, 07:05:05 AM »
When it comes to high risk/reward par fives I don’t think I’ve seen anything better than the four par fives at Tobacco Road , holes 1, 4, 11 and 13.  For the long hitter there are opportunities for heroic shots that could surely lead to eagles, birdies, pars or triples. That Mike Strantz created 4 par 5s where the drive required all of the thought of the approach gives credence to his legacy.


Good choice because all four of those holes mess with your mind's eye in some way. 13 even does a double-bluff; looking into the green, you think that it can't possibly be that small...but it is.


On each, the layups mess with your mind's eye because the layup area looks narrower than it is...or in the case of the 1st, the landing area exists when you're not sure that it does. You can run out of room on 4 and 11 if you get too aggressive, but otherwise there's plenty of it. And there's tons of room on 13.




Ronald Montesano

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2021, 01:27:23 PM »
Robert Trent Jones Senior and his par fives.


Two in non-metro NY are at Seven Oaks (Colgate): 5 and 7


One is at Glen Oak (just one oak, not the plural place): 18


I'm not saying that these are good or bad holes, but they do mess with your mind.
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2021, 04:28:31 PM »
I think what you're really looking for are par-5's with unusual or camouflaged strategic geometry.


Pac Dunes #12 seems fairly straightforward to me, but #16 is vexing - especially taking into account the sharp hump on the top ridge on the right side of the green.


Nobody ever mentions this hole - maybe since David Kidd is not one of the darlings around here  - but #13 at Bandon is maddeningly clever . . . . yet most players don't even notice the alternate fairway to the left.


Even "Fizzio" (tip of the cap to Tommy) has a beauty - #17 at Pelican Hill North. One way to ascertain the elasticity of a par-5 is the likelihood of changing your mind in the middle of a backswing.


But even with these examples, the prize winner is my hated nemesis - #14 at We-Ko-Pah Saguaro . . . . an uphill Channel Hole (Lido geometry) that acts as an Armenian repellent.


No matter if I am 2 under, four over, sober, buzzed, hitting it well, hitting it marginal, take the alternate fairway route, play it the long way on the left . . . . the result is always a 7 on the scorecard, unless it is an 8 - a smorgasbord of bad options from the tee, all the way to the tiny hilltop green that makes #16 at Bandon Trails or #14 at Cuscowilla look doable.


I don't mind having my mind messed with - but submitting to that particular proctoscope and simultaneous horsewhipping has emptied my wallet at the casino bar in McDowell more than once.










 


 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 09:11:23 AM by Gib Papazian »

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2021, 05:01:01 PM »
I think Pete Dye had as good an understanding of how to make interesting par 5s as anyone. The 7th at his course at PGA Village has a Volcano bunker that dominates the second-shot landing area. Going short-left of it is visually easier but it's hard to get far enough left to have a great view of the green. But if you go short-right (to get a shot down the axis of the green), it means playing over an intruding edge of my all-time favorite bunker complex, which causes the fairway to taper and forces you to be really sure exactly how far you're trying to hit the shot. It's the exact opposite of the mindless execution-only layup most par 5s call for.
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Mike_Trenham

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Re: Par 5's cleverly designed t o mess with your mind's eye
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2021, 11:12:11 PM »
The three par 5s at Dismal River White (Nicklaus) are all quite good with critical decisions for both short and long hitters on each shot.
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