When have you ever been surprised?

[JMEvensky]

JMEvensky,


Bonus points for use of esoteric, obscure word that sent me to the dictionary.


Nice!


Eristic! That is something Fred Reed would use in the Unz review.

I wasn't familiar with Fred Reed/Unz Review. I read a few--his perspective is a little off center, fun to read. Thanks.


I once called Pat Mucci eristic--it fit him too.

[Ira Fishman]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

Ira,


Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?

[Ira Fishman]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

Ira,


Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?

Yep.


Now, why did you leave Victoria National?


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

Ira,


Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?

Yep.


Now, why did you leave Victoria National?


Ira

I drove down one day thinking I could charge my car at the club. To my surprise they had decided to abandon the Tesla chargers on property. That decision flipped my switch.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

Ira,


Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?

Yep.

Ira

How is Ira getting a pass saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon? I have never seen a sniff of such lunacy anywhere at anytime in my travels. It makes no sense as either bait or humor.

[Ira Fishman]

I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.


But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.


Ira

Ira,


Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?

Yep.

Ira

How is Ira getting a pass saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon? I have never seen a sniff of such lunacy anywhere at anytime in my travels. It makes no sense as either bait or humor.

I distracted everyone by focusing on the surprise of you leaving your beloved Victoria National.

[MCirba]

My one and only play at Pasatiempo was with Gib, his red-haired girlfriend walking with us, Mr. Huntley, and Dr. Geoff Childs.  Most of what I recall 20 some years later was non-golf-course related but I don't recall it being overly punishing.

[John Kavanaugh]

My one and only play at Pasatiempo was with Gib, his red-haired girlfriend walking with us, Mr. Huntley, and Dr. Geoff Childs.  Most of what I recall 20 some years later was non-golf-course related but I don't recall it being overly punishing.

Yes but you are one of higher skill sets. I have to say that too surprised me when we played.

[Jason Thurman]

I've been surprised at a couple Ross courses. Specifically Idle Hour, which felt "flashier" in spots than I expected from Ross, and White Bear Yacht Club, which had a bolder and less intuitive routing than I'd have expected.


Upon further review (and in the case of White Bear, much deliberation by guys who did the real archaeology of digging for and discovering historic records), there was good reason in both cases for why these courses felt different.

[John Kavanaugh]

Idle Hour was shockingly surprising. I think I played it before we went to the track.

[Gib_Papazian]

Barny,


Don't think you're going to get a pass on this one either:


____________________________________________________________________________________
"To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too."
______________________________________________________________________________________


Obviously, your being . . . . I know . . . . "eristic."


Or maybe "eristicratic" - an argumentative, socratic, aristocrat (from Indiana), challenging students with intentionally obtuse or irrational arguments.


 

[John Kavanaugh]

Barny,


Don't think you're going to get a pass on this one either:


____________________________________________________________________________________
"To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too."
______________________________________________________________________________________


Obviously, your being . . . . I know . . . . "eristic."


Or maybe "eristicratic" - an argumentative, socratic, aristocrat (from Indiana), challenging students with intentionally obtuse or irrational arguments.

I’ve held this view for quite sometime and have defended my position on this site in the past. Last month or so I revisited Pebble and confirmed my opinion after a couple more plays.


I’m not going to use the range at Pebble and a little bunt fade first swing of the day is perfect for me. And that is just the start.


I prefer it over the first at St Andrews because at Pebble the tourists at least have to get off the bus to catch a glimpse.

[Mike Hendren]

I too am a big fan of Pebble Beach Golf Links. However I was surprised by how pedestrian the iconic 18th felt on the ground and how thrilling I found the much maligned 17th.


And to think I was once a rater.


Go Vols.


Bogey

[Ian Mackenzie]

For me it was May River Golf Club in Palmetto Bluff, SC.


As a Nickaus design course, I had modest expectations.
What I saw and played felt like an "enlightened Nicklaus" course with powerful bunkering, ground game options and the need to hit a draw sometimes...;-)

[Bruce Katona]

JK:  At this point are you of the opinion you'd prefer a course where the penal hazards (1 stroke +) are minimized with the architect providing a safe routing around the penalty, which may make the par very tough but a bogey realistic?


PS: Why did the old club remove the Tesla Charging station - were you the only one using it?


BK

[Jeff_Brauer]

When I first saw the title, I figured it may have been about old guys and a fart.......


That said, I'm not sure why it devolved into a battle about Pasa.  I have played it and was entirely underwhelmed.  I just can't get over the tight and often unsafe routing, specifically holes 6-8, but also recall 1 and 2 not really being great holes.


In my book, and I'm a Mac fan, Pasa is nowhere near the top 100.  It's just a nice course that a few have chosen to promote above its rank.


As to being surprised, I am guessing it's harder and harder to be surprised positively, given all the web presence that give you photos, reviews, and more about any course you want to go play.


Looking back over the last 20 years, my biggest surprise might be a 9 hole course in MN where they still had a mailbox to stuff your low greens fee in on the honor system.  Also, finding and playing a few holes on a sand green course in Kansas.

[John Kirk]

Former president George H.W. Bush did not like broccoli, despite the fact it is a consensus top ten vegetable.

OK, I guess I'll add something less tangential.

Grinding my gears trying to remember courses that surprised me, the first two that come to mind are Plainfield and Engineers.  The east coast is filled with good golf courses.  I think it's because the terrain has right-sized undulation for the game.

But I'm a west coast person, where most of the land is either very hilly for golf, or too flat to be of much interest.  I freely admit that I like Pasatiempo because the course is demanding exercise, and I imagine myself staying in very good shape trying to walk it two or three times a week.  I want a course that makes me work.

For Pasatiempo, like Gib I thought of #2 through #5.  It's a great stretch.  #2 is probably the best hole on the course.  #6 and #7 don't bother me a bit, as it's OK to demand that we hit it straight for a couple holes.  I think #8 is the weakest hole, as there's little or no variety in hole locations.  There are three small pinnable areas (middle left, back left and back right) where the hole can go, and so many putts are attempted from the same few areas.  Just too severe.

On the back nine, I like #10, #13, #14 and #17 best.  I believe the back nine at Pasatiempo has one of the more creative routing sequences.  The green to tee walks are exceptionally short.  I find the tee shot at #16 and the second shot at #11 a bit too demanding for me to love them.  The third shot at #13 is pretty cool.  I also like that the 14th green is very flat and nondescript, just laying there on flat ground.


It does seem like #1 worked better as an easy par 5 opener.  #9 is kinda weird, and the walk from #9 to #10 is a ball buster.  At Pasatiempo, they play a game that is quite a bit different from the typical golf experience.  Getting above the hole there requires very delicate short game plays.  You're just touching them to get them started, or pounding them uphill at the hole.  I definitely have a home area bias for the place.  I like being there.

[Eric Smith]

The New Course in Orlando was a really nice surprise. I think they have just renamed it the Links Course.


photo by Jean-Luc Devilliers, CDSM

[Mike_Trenham]

The New Course in Orlando was a really nice surprise. I think they have just renamed it the Links Course.


photo by Jean-Luc Devilliers, CDSM

Ok now I am surprised, that course was very well named.

[Jeff Schley]

Cedar Rapids for sure. It gets a lot of accolades here, but I played with a poster here who gave us the highlights of the changes and came away very impressed. Who would have thought a small city in Iowa had such a gem when you dust it off. This was after the renovation, but before the storm.