When have you ever been surprised?

[John Kavanaugh]

Barny,


Saying you "hate" Pasatiempo is like saying Charlize Theron is ugly. It says more about the critic than the art being contemplated.


Please, I gotta know, what can you possibly hate about Pasatiempo?


Or is this you playing intentional provocateur (like I'm one to talk), spewing heresy for fun?


Again, I grok why somebody might not like Spanish Bay - Garcia's solos in Dark Star can be fairly esoteric for the uninitiated - but Pasatiempo checks all the boxes for greatness in the Treehouse and damn if I can find much to cogently criticize without resorting to whining about irrelevant minutiae.


Hate ending a course with a Par-3? The weather is normally perfect and the cart-girl is a hot hippie chick from UC Santa Cruz . . . . what's not to like?
[size=78%]      [/size]
Did you 5-putt #8 or something?

I just joined a course that finishes with a par 3 and love it. That isn't why I hate Pasa.


I would simply dislike the course if it wasn't so expensive and blindly beloved. I'm comfortable with the term hate.


The signs telling me not to piss in the bushes are redundant and short of greatness. The people who live in those homes know something they aren't  telling us.


The first hole is confused what it's role should be. It gets me started off in a bad mood. The view and any view on the entirety of the course is short of greatness.


The new bunker shaping is overdone and amateurish.


It's a housing course that would make anyone proud. If you don't care about greatness.


The fact that Mackenzie lived on the course means nothing to me. I've lived on roads that I have paved and roads that I didn't. I have rarely lived on my favorite road.


The only redeeming architectural feature is some ravine that was sodded. 14 I think. I don't see the genius in it.


But worst of all is that it is a course that punishes diminishing skills logarithmically.


I don't think it is asking too much to be able to name 6 great holes on a great course. I can't name one at Pasa.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks JK - I was looking forward to your answer. One of your better posts -- you've been hiding (or disguising) your light under a bushel.
I watched an amateur event from Pasatiempo, and was surprised that *this* group loved it so much. Yes, a Dr Mac, but it seemed a tough go for the average golfer.

[Ronald Montesano]

Not even close to a tough go for an average golfer. For a stupid and/or arrogant golfer, yes. For a brawn-over-brain golfer, perhaps.


I'm not convinced that a single one of KJ's comments is remotely accurate. Sure, there are houses around the course, but they ain't your average houses. Pinehurst #2 also has some housing. The Old Course has a hotel.


I've not the energy to spend on overturning the illogic. I think that Ynrab once had a great post where he fell asleep at the keyboard, finger glued to the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


What time is it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Not even close to a tough go for an average golfer. For a stupid and/or arrogant golfer, yes. For a brawn-over-brain golfer, perhaps.


I'm not convinced that a single one of KJ's comments is remotely accurate. Sure, there are houses around the course, but they ain't your average houses. Pinehurst #2 also has some housing. The Old Course has a hotel.


I've not the energy to spend on overturning the illogic. I think that Ynrab once had a great post where he fell asleep at the keyboard, finger glued to the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


What time is it?

http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/eighteen-18s-of-the-usa-pasatiempo-bandon-dunes/


Yet you don't say a single good thing about the course.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ron, from tv it seemed that Pasatiempo could be a tough walk in places -- and from my (limited) experience with golf courses, I tend to think that the same features that make for a tough walk often make for a more challenging game, especially for the average golfer. (I just went to check: this year, two of the top collegiate golfers in the country tied for first with a score of -5 after 54 holes, playing the course at 6600 yards. That does make it sound like a tough test).

[Tom_Doak]

To say Pasatiempo is not a tough course is silly.  It's a tough walk with 300 feet of elevation change; it's tight in spots; there are ravines in play, lots of bunkers, and lots of opportunities to three-putt.  But, nearly all great courses are tough, right?


But John is a member of Victoria National, which is way harder than that, and probably why he had the phrase "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically" close at hand. 


The course has never been a slam dunk entry in the top 100 in America -- it's been in, and it's been out -- and that is with Alister MacKenzie's name attached.  Without the name, it probably doesn't get as much love.

[Jim Tang]

I haven't played it but a good friend recently played Peachtree and was surprised it was the work of RTJ.

[John Kavanaugh]

To say Pasatiempo is not a tough course is silly.  It's a tough walk with 300 feet of elevation change; it's tight in spots; there are ravines in play, lots of bunkers, and lots of opportunities to three-putt.  But, nearly all great courses are tough, right?


But John is a member of Victoria National, which is way harder than that, and probably why he had the phrase "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically" close at hand. 


The course has never been a slam dunk entry in the top 100 in America -- it's been in, and it's been out -- and that is with Alister MacKenzie's name attached.  Without the name, it probably doesn't get as much love.

Thanks for the compliment but I am no longer a member of Victoria National.


I do understand and remember the first time I played Pasa. I told everyone back home that I had played a course designed by the guy who did ANGC. It was also a day never to forget as me and Rich Goodale partnered against H2K and JVB. It was after a few more plays that I fell hard out of love.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious when a course being a tough walk became a disqualifier to being great?

ANGC is a very hilly, up and down walk, ditto for Bandon Trails, and Pine Valley doesn't look like a picnic either..

P.S.  Pasatiempo is one of the few courses that greatly exceeded my expectations, and to this day the back 9 remains the most brilliantly routed I've ever played. Everyone has their opinion JK, but Gib is right, i'm not sure where in the hell you're coming from.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


I was surprised at the turn I took. I expected and wanted to love it or I wouldn’t have traveled 2000 miles and played it multiple times.


Being the eternal optimist that I am most disappointments come as a surprise.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I was surprised at the turn I took. I expected and wanted to love it or I wouldn’t have traveled 2000 miles and played it multiple times.

Being the eternal optimist that I am most disappointments come as a surprise.

Barney,

I can't blame you for going with your gut on this one.  Most of life's major decisions like career path, spouse, even which college you attend is about following your heart and emotions.

And the corollary to that, as stated by one wiser than me: "Its a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart"

[John Kavanaugh]

Weak

[Gib_Papazian]

Not to swell TD's head any further, the restoration work that Renaissance completed at Pasa pushed the course from very good back to legitimately great. 


Barny, You cannot name six holes of extreme excellence *at Pasatiempo?* We playing the same golf course? I think you can make the argument there are six great holes, just on the back nine!


So, what makes a golf course great? Well, views in the distance can be an important enhancement, but the purported #1 golf course in America has nothing of the sort  - unless you stand on the clubhouse roof to see the waterpark through the trees.


I can acknowledge Pasatiempo's front nine has some flaws - #6 is too narrow, #8's putting surface can be unplayable Stimping faster than about a 9-10 and #7 needs a brace of chainsaws to let the aesthetic organization of the elements breathe a little bit . . . . . HOWEVER, 2,3,4 & 5 are all holes I look forward to playing.


In fact, #8 tickles my sense of perverse amusement - in the same way the green on #1 at NGLA is deliciously maddening. That stated, I've seen more than one legit gunner helicopter the flat stick after a GIR ended up a double-bogerini . . . . .


Once we hit the 10th tee, you've got nine straight conversation pieces in a row to tackle, each one busting with strategic content. BTW, unless you can fly the ball over the sand on #10, try using the contours of the ground to sneak your ball using the runup on the right side.


It is all about ball placement off the tee - and thinking hard about risk-reward. I cannot fathom why negotiating the swale on #14 is a minus because it was sodded in,


#15 is #15 at Cypress Point, except without the rocks - but still with gorgeous bunkering and a sense of intimacy in that little spot of the property.


#16 is legendary - like Quarry Hole at Merion East, so please explain what's not to like.


#17 is a connector hole before the boffo finisher - until you try to decipher that complicated putting surface. In other words, even the plain Jane of the back nine has a wild side once you get to the dance floor.


Actually, I'll go out on a limb and assert PB has more ordinary holes than Pasatiempo!


#1,2,5,11,12,13.14 at Pebble - if examined individually in a vacuum - are not going to win any prizes . . . .


You "hate" Pebble Beach, too?










 


   


 


   






 

[Peter Pallotta]

But is JK right that it "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically"?

Even if he is, I'm not saying this precludes Pasatiempo from being 'great'.

I'm just saying that it would then 'surprise me' as being one of the very few courses that both punishes the weaker golfer AND that GCA.COM-types seem to love nonetheless.

(Yes, yes, I know: that list includes Oakmont and Pine Valley, etc. But from what I can tell, for most around here it doesn't include Olympic-Lake).

[JMEvensky]

What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?


Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.

[Gib_Papazian]

Peter,


You know what? Olympic lake - even after we erased hundreds of trees - is not a "great" golf course.


It is not, it is not it is not.


Olympic Lake is a stringent, highly objective examination of all facets of your game; again, like taking the SAT or intentionally subjecting yourself to some kind of perverted bathhouse gauntlet - except with golf clubs.


Opportunities to legitimately play the ground game are still far too limited - and for the poorer player (despite only 3 fairway bunkers and no water in play)  it punishes weaker players algorithmically and logarithmically far out of proportion to better players.


And that is a weakness . . . . . without the whimsical or endearing quirk at a course like Pasatiempo. Once the clock strikes 55 or 60 years old, unless you've got fabulous genetics, the objective is fun.

[Ronald Montesano]

What is anyone trying to say with the adverb logarithmically? Are we saying that a certain handicap will score a power higher than someone 1-2 strokes better? That's a big gap. Which are those skills, specifically? Forced carries of untenable length do not exist. You run the ball all the way to the green on a number of holes. Other than 10 tee, I do not recall a void that remotely approaches an unassailable forced carry. Putting? The green speeds are not excessive for the undulations and slopes. Six is a par five, but not an excessive one. Three shots of 180 get you to the green, even uphill.

Three is one of the world's great par three holes, as is fifteen. Ten and Eleven are monstrously-challenging and fun holes, in completely opposite ways. Gib explains it all well above. Why did I not gush in my BG.C review? Space, time, and I don't gush.

[Peter Pallotta]

What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?
Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.

It's true, JM.
On the other hand, if I never read another post around here complaining about the high slope ratings of 'early Nicklaus courses' it won't be soon enough. And aren't 'diminishing skills' quite a lot like "already average skills"? And isn't 'exponentially punishing' another way of saying 'high slope rating'?
JK seems really to dislike a course that everyone else seems to love -- so what gives? He says part of the dislike is that it punishes unduly.
I'm just asking whether that's, like, actually *true* or not.

[Bernie Bell]

Don't people who play for money typically tend to hold in better regard courses that favor their comparative strengths?

[Peter Pallotta]

Gib - thanks much for that. Only from my tv viewings, I've long felt compelled to defend Olympic against the critics here, if only because I believe/know that there must be room for "a stringent, highly objective examination of all facets of your game" in the pantheon of the greats. But from what I can tell, you are a good player who's been a member there for decades -- and so for me your perspective/insight trumps everything.
That said, and again just from tv, I am just surprised that the whimsy and quirk of Pasatiempo 'balances out' so much for so many.

[JMEvensky]

What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?
Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.

It's true, JM.
On the other hand, if I never read another post around here complaining about the high slope ratings of 'early Nicklaus courses' it won't be soon enough. And aren't 'diminishing skills' quite a lot like "already average skills"? And isn't 'exponentially punishing' another way of saying 'high slope rating'?
JK seems really to dislike a course that everyone else seems to love -- so what gives? He says part of the dislike is that it punishes unduly.
I'm just asking whether that's, like, actually *true* or not.

Never met JK but I'm betting he has a pretty good eye for what constitutes a good/great golf course--and he knows Pasatiempo is at least very good.


He's just being eristic.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can enjoy a round at St. Andrews without having to carry a ball over 200 yds. Or 100, or 50 or 10 yds.  The difficultly of the course is linear. At Pasa there is a yardage where I lose my enjoyment. It's logarithmic.


In layman terms. St. Andrews is a course to grow old on. That is what I like now.

[Gib_Papazian]

JMEvensky,


Bonus points for use of esoteric, obscure word that sent me to the dictionary.


Nice!


Eristic! That is something Fred Reed would use in the Unz review. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Gib,


The 15th is where I openly laughed out loud at the bunkering.


https://www.historicgolfphotos.com/product/15th-hole-at-pasatiempo-golf-club/

[John Kavanaugh]

Not to swell TD's head any further, the restoration work that Renaissance completed at Pasa pushed the course from very good back to legitimately great. 


Barny, You cannot name six holes of extreme excellence *at Pasatiempo?* We playing the same golf course? I think you can make the argument there are are six great holes, just on the back nine!


So, what makes a golf course great? Well, views in the distance can be an important enhancement, but the purported #1 golf course in America has nothing of the sort  - unless you stand on the clubhouse roof to see the waterpark through the trees.


I can acknowledge Pasatiempo's front nine has some flaws - #6 is too narrow, #8's putting surface can be unplayable Stimping faster than about a 9-10 and #7 needs a brace of chainsaws to let the aesthetic organization of the elements breathe a little bit . . . . . HOWEVER, 2,3,4 & 5 are all holes I look forward to playing.


In fact, #8 tickles my sense of perverse amusement - in the same way the green on #1 at NGLA is deliciously maddening. That stated, I've seen more than one legit gunner helicopter the flat stick after a GIR ended up a double-bogerini . . . . .


Once we hit the 10th tee, you've got nine straight conversation pieces in a row to tackle, each one busting with strategic content. BTW, unless you can fly the ball over the sand on #10, try using the contours of the ground to sneak your ball using the runup on the right side.


It is all about ball placement off the tee - and thinking hard about risk-reward. I cannot fathom why negotiating the swale on #14 is a minus because it was sodded in,


#15 is #15 at Cypress Point, except without the rocks - but still with gorgeous bunkering and a sense of intimacy in that little spot of the property.


#16 is legendary - like Quarry Hole at Merion East, so please explain what's not to like.


#17 is a connector hole before the boffo finisher - until you try to decipher that complicated putting surface. In other words, even the plain Jane of the back nine has a wild side once you get to the dance floor.


Actually, I'll go out on a limb and assert PB has more ordinary holes than Pasatiempo!


#1,2,5,11,12,13.14 at Pebble - if examined individually in a vacuum - are not going to win any prizes . . . .


You "hate" Pebble Beach, too?










 


   


 


   






 

This is a nice post. I hope no one missed it.


To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too.