How much elevation rise is too much?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I know we have covered this before, but recently it has become an issue for me personally. The fifth hole at Ballyhack is about 380 yards long. I do not know for sure, but I think the vertical rise for the second shot might be forty feet or more in about 150 yards.
The tee shot is blind but the fairway is miles wide, so it is a non-issue. If the pin is on the left, I aim to the right side of the fairway. However, I invariably have a downhill lie to a very elevated green. Sometimes my second shot is only about 130 yards, if I hit my tee ball well and get a good downhill kick. Other times I will aim left, which can leave me with an uphill lie. That works better for me. I don't get as much height in my irons anymore. Sometimes I will have 150 yards or more. I don't know what club to hit then. Sometimes I will take a longer club than I need but hit it into the hill and try to get a bounce up onto the green. Other times I will hit a more lofted club as hard as I can to see if I can get there with it.

If I don’t get there with my second shot my ball will roll down the hill to about fifty yards short of the green, where getting on the green is a non-issue.

A friend of mine who is member told me that one of our 80-year-old members quit because he no longer could get on the green with his second shot. I might just move up a tee on this hole, then it will be less of a problem, but I don’t want to do that yet.

At any rate the issue is, how much elevation rise is too much?

This picture is from the right side of the fairway and shows the elevation change.



From the middle of the fairway.

[John Emerson]

To answer the question Idk the exact number on vertical rise, but tilt severity seems to draw more complaining than elevation. 

[David_Tepper]

Tommy -

Have you ever played the Olympic Club, Lake Merced, Lincoln Park or the Presidio in San Francisco? Compared to some of the holes on those courses, the rise on #5 at Ballyhack looks pretty tame. 

DT

[Thomas Dai]

Length of grass, gravity and walkability?
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Tommy,

I fired up Google Earth and got some numbers for you.

Middle tee: 1037 ft
Lowest part of fairway: 1012 ft
Middle of Green: 1054 ft

So 40 feet uphill on 2nd shot was a pretty good guess.

In comparison to ANGC 18.  The tee shot is about 20 feet up the hill to the bunkers, and then another 35-40 ft to the green.

P.S.  The most uphill hole I've played has gotta be the 1st at Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA.  Google Earth puts its at 110 feet of elevation gain from tee to green, just a ball-buster way to start the round.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy -

Have you ever played the Olympic Club, Lake Merced, Lincoln Park or the Presidio in San Francisco? Compared to some of the holes on those courses, the rise on #5 at Ballyhack looks pretty tame. 

DT

I have played Olympic lake. While I did notice the elevation changes, I was much younger so it didn't bother me. AS I recall most of the elevation changes were gradual. Eight and eighteen might have been the ones I noticed the most.

[David_Tepper]

Tommy -
 
Do you remember the 4th hole on the Lake? Downhill tee shot, then a dogleg left up a pretty steep rise to the green.

The 4th hole at Lake Merced also has a very steep rise to the green. At the risk of invoking the "fair" word, that is one of the most "unfair" holes I have seen, as the average golfer is typically hitting a 160-180 yard shot off a downhill lie to sharply uphill green.

The good news is Gil Hanse plans to turn that whole into the driving range in his upcoming re-design of the course.

DT

[Pete_Pittock]

Think the 1st at Painswick is the poster boy, but the grass is mowed high enough that the ball will stop pretty quickly. Although it is a tad over 300 the slope is enough that I tacked enough times to make it near 500. The hole that had my goat is 14 at Old Macdonald.
But the real clincher of too much slope (on a golf course but not a golf hole) is the Lombard St. cart path to the 10th tee at Wente Vineyards.
(thanks to Kyle for the correction)

[Kyle Henderson]

Think the 1st at Painswick is the poster boy, but the grass is mowed high enough that the ball will stop pretty quickly. Although it is a tad over 300 the slope is enough that I tacked enough time to make it near 500. The hole that had my goat is 14 at Old Macdonald.
But the real clincher of too much slope (on a golf course but not a golf hole) is the Lombard St. cart path to the 1st tee at Wente Vineyards.

Lombard street gets you to the 10th tee. The 1st tee only requires maybe 100 ft of climbing.

[Stewart Abramson]

The hole that had my goat is 14 at Old Macdonald.

Pete, I really like the approach to #14. It's a great green where you need to be in the right place with your approach.


IIRC Old Mac #7 (another of my favorites) has even more "rise" than #14

[Paul Rudovsky]

This summer Dave Wuthridge and I played True North GC in northern Michigan...and both of us thought its #8 hole was the longest sharpest uphill hole we had ever played or seen.


So here are some comparative statistics for some of the courses cited above:


ANGC 18 2nd shot    40' rise over 180 yards (guess on yardage)    7.7%
BallyHack #5 2nd shot   42' rise over 150 yards (per Tommy estimate)      9.3%
Tilden #1 (entire hole)  110' (per Kalen) over 554 yds (per scorecard)   6.7%
True North #8 (entire hole from back tee)  125' (Google Earth) over 562 yds (scorecard) 7.4%
True North #8 (hole from front tee) 120' (Google Earth)  over 433 yards (scorecard) 9.2%
[size=78%] [/size]

[Jim Sherma]

Ballyhack 5 is certainly a case where lower clubhead speed players simply have no hope. I had a couple of guests who were good senior players that simply could not get the ball high enough to get up and onto the green. It is certainly made more difficult by the fact that you are often hitting off of a flat or even downhill lie. Many uphill approaches are hit off of uphill lies, at least making it somewhat easier to get loft on the ball.


Steel Club's (FKA Silver Creek and earlier FKA The Bethlehem Steel Club - Donald Ross) Hill-9 3rd hole is likely the most severely uphill hole I've ever played. The drive is over a little dip and from the base of the fairway 87' rise in 300 yards (9.7%). This is the hole that probably made the club to abandon Ross' Hill 9 in the primary routing and replace it with the newly built Gordon 9 within the first decade of opening. 

[Matt_Cohn]

P.S.  The most uphill hole I've played has gotta be the 1st at Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA.  Google Earth puts its at 110 feet of elevation gain from tee to green, just a ball-buster way to start the round.

Not far away in the East Bay, Google Earth shows #6 at Round Hill as 130 feet uphill! It's a 445 yard par-5.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  The most uphill hole I've played has gotta be the 1st at Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA.  Google Earth puts its at 110 feet of elevation gain from tee to green, just a ball-buster way to start the round.

Not far away in the East Bay, Google Earth shows #6 at Round Hill as 130 feet uphill! It's a 445 yard par-5.

Very cool Matt,

Just remembered 3 and 4 at Lake Chabot.  After hitting down to the bottom of the valley, #3 plays about 60 feet back uphill to the green, and #4 plays just over 80 feet back up the hill.  Some tough approach shots, but I think these both played as par 5's as well to make up for it!

[corey miller]

There seems to be some disdain for severely uphill par three's where one can't see the green surface so I do wonder why severely uphill par fours and par fives seem to be okay.


I guess one could argue the dynamics change if you can get a peek at the green/hole earlier in the round or perhaps see the green somewhere somehow on the hole but what's the sense of a super undulating green on an uphill hole when the player has not a clue?

[Paul Rudovsky]

Corey--


Not sure all the comments above are meant as compliments...but of course zI can only speak for myself.


Best
Paul

[Jonathan Cummings]

Someone look up the rise (as Pete P points out) at #1 Painswick.  It may well be 15-20% and there ain't no carts on the course!  I was a backpacker in my younger days and I have to say that first at Painswick is the only hole in golf, toting my bag, I had to stop halfway up to take a rest.


If you are talking cart ball then isn't Wolf Creek the poster child for vertical elevation changes??

[Kalen Braley]

Someone look up the rise (as Pete P points out) at #1 Painswick.  It may well be 15-20% and there ain't no carts on the course!  I was a backpacker in my younger days and I have to say that first at Painswick is the only hole in golf, toting my bag, I had to stop halfway up to take a rest.

Hey Jonathon,

Just looked it up. For such a short hole (220 yards to middle of green according to Google Earth) that is pretty damn steep.

Tee box: 701 elev.
Green: 797 elev

[Ira Fishman]

I don't know how to do the measurement, but numbers 4, 6, 7, 11, and 17 at Hope Valley all play to seriously elevated greens. I was skeptical about electric trolleys until I saw one navigate the hill to number 7.


Ira

[Jason Thurman]

There seems to be some disdain for severely uphill par three's where one can't see the green surface so I do wonder why severely uphill par fours and par fives seem to be okay.

I once heard a guy say that par 3s should never be uphill, because "Nobody should make a hole-in-one and be deprived of seeing their ball go in."


Then again, that uphill shot is much more likely to release. I'd rather make a blind hole-in-one than not make a hole-in-one, any day.

[Stewart Abramson]

The approach on the 336 yard par four third hole at Rivervale CC in New Jersey is quite steep. There is a flat landing area 150 to 110 yards out. The approach shot from there is about 40 feet uphill. It gets steeper from there. The rise from 90 yards out is at least 30 feet. There is a less steep area (not quite a plateau) part way up the hill. Tee shots that reach there will have a flatter lie. Tee shots short of that area can roll back a bit or stop on a steeper area, especially if in the rough, leading to a more difficult approach shot than one from 140 yards. It's a fun hole where many approach shots fall short. I don't think it's too much rise.



River Vale CC #3 uphill approach from 90 yards

[Tim Martin]

The most compelling versions seem to come with mid to short irons on the approaches. Holes like 7 Yale, 17 Essex County Club, 17 Pine Valley and 17 Oakmont allow a variety of skill levels to reach the green on the second shot without any guarantee of par. I think it can work as the third shot into a par five as well and would offer up 17 at Dormie Club or 1 Whitinsville as examples. The deception to a major degree comes in the form of messing with a player’s depth perception and distance control.

[Sean_A]

Someone look up the rise (as Pete P points out) at #1 Painswick.  It may well be 15-20% and there ain't no carts on the course!  I was a backpacker in my younger days and I have to say that first at Painswick is the only hole in golf, toting my bag, I had to stop halfway up to take a rest.

Hey Jonathon,

Just looked it up. For such a short hole (220 yards to middle of green according to Google Earth) that is pretty damn steep.

Tee box: 701 elev.
Green: 797 elev

Far too steep a grade. It's a terrible hole. Really a waste of an excellent feature.

Ciao

[Brett Meyer]

I echo everyone else that Painswick 1 is too much uphill. If the fairway weren't maintained as rough, the ball would just roll back to your feet.


Although I didn't mind it, the par 3 5th hole at Sage Run in the upper peninsula of Michigan is probably too steep for most. I couldn't get the elevation from Google Earth because the course is only a few years old and they don't show it yet. It must be 50 feet from the ~185 back tees. But of all the holes that I've played, it was the one that reminded me most of the 1st at Painswick in the severity of the slope. The short par 4 sixteenth is also very steep (plays up the same hill as 5), but they've blasted the hill to make tiers of fairway that allow you to work your way up it.


The 1st at Painswick:





The 5th at Sage Run:





And the 16th at Sage Run:





I'd also add as an honorable mention the par 3 16th at Hankley Common which I didn't think was so severely uphill, but I played behind a group of ladies who thought otherwise. The ladies tee was at the base of the hill and from here, the hill was steep enough that the ladies couldn't get enough elevation on their shots to carry it. The distance wouldn't have been a problem on its own. They devised a clever solution; the first one hit and then moved halfway up the hill to spot the rest of the balls as they landed halfway up the hill in the heather.


This raises a further point: 'how much elevation is too much' depends on who's playing. From forward tees, very little but abrupt elevation can be too much because those who play from there can't get the elevation on their shots. But for a low handicap, even these steep uphill shots are manageable. I think that steep uphill shots like the 5th at Sage Run are great for lower handicaps because they require good decision making (how much yardage to add) and, more than usual, that you hit the ball solidly.


The problem is that if the hole is really uphill from the back tees, you probably won't be able to locate forward tees in a place where it also isn't very uphill. If you could, that'd be the answer. Of course you could also reduce severity for those who can't get the elevation on their shots by not doing things like having heather between the tee and green, like they do on the 16th at Hankley Common.


The 16th at Hankley Common:

[Mike Nuzzo]

Too much rise for the individual golf hole?
Where the hole becomes a bit of a negative/slog.
I'd say more than the uphill hole at the Saguaro Course - because that hole isn't "too" much uphill.


Too much rise in a single hole for the golf course?
The hole at Painswick seems like too much uphill on a single hole - wish I knew first hand - but it seems worth it for the special holes that follow.
So not too much for the course, just for the hole.


Peace