How much elevation rise is too much?

[Thomas Dai]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

[Sean_A]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

Whats unfair about the criticism?  The hole is steeply uphill and a slog. The green end of the hole isn't nearly enough payoff to compensate for an awful climb. It doesn't matter when a hole was designed...ya gotta call it like it is.

Ciao

[Pete_Pittock]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

Whats unfair about the criticism?  The hole is steeply uphill and a slog. The green end of the hole isn't nearly enough payoff to compensate for awful climb. It doesn't matter when a hole was designed...ya gotta call it like it is.
Ciao

After I summitted Painswick's first I was able to plant a flag in conquest.  For what is is worth I've climbed the first section of the Chilkoot  Pass (the beginning of the route to the Klondike gold rush) and Painswick was quite similar, except shorter, warmer and drier.

[Kalen Braley]

In retrospect seems like a missed opportunity to have a gorgeous drop shot par 3, perhaps as a finisher no less.  I'm sure any modern architect worth his salt would have done that instead. 

[Jeff Schley]

I'm not a fan of the short par 4 at Cathedral Lodge which is very steep on the approach. Our carts tires were spinning going up with slight dew on the grass, 1 guy had to get out. I don't know the rise, but it would be a bear to walk that hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

Whats unfair about the criticism?  The hole is steeply uphill and a slog. The green end of the hole isn't nearly enough payoff to compensate for an awful climb. It doesn't matter when a hole was designed...ya gotta call it like it is.

Ciao

I didn't mind that hole, really.  It shouldn't be viewed in isolation.  You've got to get up there somehow; biting the bullet and doing it right away is not the worst way to go, as opposed to dragging it out over two or three holes.  And the hole certainly prompts discussion.

[Tom_Doak]

It's funny that this thread parallels another that has morphed into a Pasatiempo thread, because Pasatiempo is the poster child for elevation rise:  the 9th and 11th may be the two biggest climbs on any top-100 course.


We had five holes at Stone Eagle with similar, steep rises:  the 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 17th.  Trying to figure out five different presentations for them, so you didn't feel like you were just doing the Iwo Jima thing to a green you can't see, was the challenge, and I think we managed pretty well.  Having the 2nd go up-and-over blind was a great suggestion by my associates.


Which reminded me of another course that has some steep ones:  Yale.  The approach to the 10th is 40 feet uphill, the 12th a little less if you hit a good drive.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

That's a good callout.  9 not so much (~70 feet on a long 5), but 11 certainly has far more elevation gain than I had realized, just short of 100 feet from the back tee to the middle of the green.

P.S.  Did you mean to say 10 at Stone Eagle?  Looks like it has about 80 feet of elevation gain.

[Thomas Dai]

Preferences as to steep climbs (on foot) at the start of a round, in the middle or at the end?
I’d go for steep at the start when there’s some energy in the personal energy bank rather than at the end when being knackered is already pretty likely.
Atb

[Stewart Abramson]

Which reminded me of another course that has some steep ones:  Yale.  The approach to the 10th is 40 feet uphill, the 12th a little less if you hit a good drive.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/gGqb6P]
Yale #10 tee shot 


Yale #10 from first crest of hill 


Yale #10 approach 


Yale #10 view back


Yale #12 from tee 


Yale #12 approach from 110 yards 

[Steve Lang]

Played Sage Run end of August, bounced off cart path on 5 (not on purpose) and scrambled from there, 16 seemed more problematic having to wait on tee looking at it, but not so bad in reality after putting it into play in that strip of fairway on right short of crest, as there were a bunch of wisconsin badgers mucking it up in front of us...


Would have to say the slope at base of final climb at Reddish Vale #18 had to be appraoching 15% in places, looked like over 50 ft in elevation  change ~120 yards, gives one need to pause halfway up, glad i had to visit the weeds on right side

I echo everyone else that Painswick 1 is too much uphill. If the fairway weren't maintained as rough, the ball would just roll back to your feet.


Although I didn't mind it, the par 3 5th hole at Sage Run in the upper peninsula of Michigan is probably too steep for most. I couldn't get the elevation from Google Earth because the course is only a few years old and they don't show it yet. It must be 50 feet from the ~185 back tees. But of all the holes that I've played, it was the one that reminded me most of the 1st at Painswick in the severity of the slope. The short par 4 sixteenth is also very steep (plays up the same hill as 5), but they've blasted the hill to make tiers of fairway that allow you to work your way up it.


The 1st at Painswick:





The 5th at Sage Run:





And the 16th at Sage Run:





I'd also add as an honorable mention the par 3 16th at Hankley Common which I didn't think was so severely uphill, but I played behind a group of ladies who thought otherwise. The ladies tee was at the base of the hill and from here, the hill was steep enough that the ladies couldn't get enough elevation on their shots to carry it. The distance wouldn't have been a problem on its own. They devised a clever solution; the first one hit and then moved halfway up the hill to spot the rest of the balls as they landed halfway up the hill in the heather.


This raises a further point: 'how much elevation is too much' depends on who's playing. From forward tees, very little but abrupt elevation can be too much because those who play from there can't get the elevation on their shots. But for a low handicap, even these steep uphill shots are manageable. I think that steep uphill shots like the 5th at Sage Run are great for lower handicaps because they require good decision making (how much yardage to add) and, more than usual, that you hit the ball solidly.


The problem is that if the hole is really uphill from the back tees, you probably won't be able to locate forward tees in a place where it also isn't very uphill. If you could, that'd be the answer. Of course you could also reduce severity for those who can't get the elevation on their shots by not doing things like having heather between the tee and green, like they do on the 16th at Hankley Common.


The 16th at Hankley Common:

[Ira Fishman]

In terms of a long, steady rise, the 13th at Primland is in the mix. It also is in the mix for largest green. I remember the 8th at Broadmoor West as a steady climb as well. Getting to the top of the back 9 at Kapalua Plantation takes a lot of work but not sure if any one hole captures most of the rise.


Ira

[Phil Burr]

I agree with Ira about Plantation.  The 17th tee is a mile above the clubhouse but I don’t remember any steep climbs to get there.  I’ve played the course 4-5 times but it’s been 20+ years so I can’t remember if they hid the climbing in the cart paths between holes.


I’m hoping Tim Martin or another New Englander can back me up about two insane climbs in CT.


The first is the par-4 15th at Laurel View in Hamden.  The carts were so notoriously unreliable that it was smarter to walk but that climb just killed the legs that late in the round.  Then you gave up all that climbing in 16th hole and then had to ascend steeply once again to the 17th tee.  I’d have hated to play that in competition.


The second is on the old Millbrook course (NLE), remains of which can be seen from I-91 midway between downtown Hartford and the airport.  The 9th hole was a par 5 where the green was so steeply and highly perched above the fairway that a shot coming up even a fraction short was likely to roll all the way back down to full wedge distance to a green you couldn’t see.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

Whats unfair about the criticism?  The hole is steeply uphill and a slog. The green end of the hole isn't nearly enough payoff to compensate for an awful climb. It doesn't matter when a hole was designed...ya gotta call it like it is.

Ciao

I agree with Sean.  Isn't there a psychological component to gca?  Don't most architects start off a little easier is order to "ease" a player into the course/round?  After all, how many courses can you think of that start with the #1 handicap hole (I know of only two)?  Arriving at Painswick second tee feeling like you are the soul survivor of the Bataan Death March sure doesn't sound like a good introduction to a golf course to me.

[jeffwarne]

I think the 11th at North Shore on Long Island might push the boundaries...

[BCrosby]

The 13th a Myopia Hunt pushes the envelope.


Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't there a psychological component to gca?  Don't most architects start off a little easier is order to "ease" a player into the course/round?  After all, how many courses can you think of that start with the #1 handicap hole (I know of only two)?  Arriving at Painswick second tee feeling like you are the soul survivor of the Bataan Death March sure doesn't sound like a good introduction to a golf course to me.

The opener at Painswick is a 220-yard par-4.  It's a steep climb, but it's a drive and pitch hole, not a backbreaker.

[Tim Martin]

I agree with Ira about Plantation.  The 17th tee is a mile above the clubhouse but I don’t remember any steep climbs to get there.  I’ve played the course 4-5 times but it’s been 20+ years so I can’t remember if they hid the climbing in the cart paths between holes.


I’m hoping Tim Martin or another New Englander can back me up about two insane climbs in CT.


The first is the par-4 15th at Laurel View in Hamden.  The carts were so notoriously unreliable that it was smarter to walk but that climb just killed the legs that late in the round.  Then you gave up all that climbing in 16th hole and then had to ascend steeply once again to the 17th tee.  I’d have hated to play that in competition.


The second is on the old Millbrook course (NLE), remains of which can be seen from I-91 midway between downtown Hartford and the airport.  The 9th hole was a par 5 where the green was so steeply and highly perched above the fairway that a shot coming up even a fraction short was likely to roll all the way back down to full wedge distance to a green you couldn’t see.

Phil-That’s a good description of 15 at Laurel View. Some wild holes on the inward nine including the par five card wrecker 11th.

[jeffwarne]

#1 at Southerndown.
Lost my pin sheet in Sr Open Q.
My son ran all the way down to bottom and back...and I had found it by then.
UK pin sheets tiny little papers  2x4 inches in size-easy to lose.

[Peter Pallotta]

I wish I was a more sophisticated golfer, and much better at separating out one aspect of the golf course and game from another. But I'm not, and I can't, ie I'm not able to compartmentalize the total experience: steep climbs or awkward walks impact/affect me as much as uninspired architecture or an ugly setting or boring greens or too many Par 5s or Par 3s or CCFAD aesthetics and pretensions. All of which is to say: 'not all that elevation change is usually too much for me' (especially since I don't enjoy riding in and so very rarely take a cart).
But that's my limitation/problem, not the design's. If every course looked like Walton Heath or The Loop, I'd be very happy.

[Bryan Izatt]

A couple of more holes to consider.  The 1st hole at Gourock Golf Club near Glasgow is a 460 yard par 5 that rises about 130 feet in a more or less straight uphill climb (9.3% grade).  It is necessary to get from the lower land near the coast to the upper heath where most of the course is located.  Good news is that you get the long climb out of the way at the beginning and get a long downhill hole at the end. 



Another severely uphill hole is the 6th at Bond Head north of Toronto by Hurzan Fry.  It rises abruptly 82 feet in 252 yards for a 10.7% grade.  Many people hate the hole. To me it is OK because it presents a different challenge and multiple ways to play it.  It does have a 12 foot pin to make the flag at least partially visible from the plateau landing area.  The green is at the top left next to the left tree line.





 

[Sean_A]

Not entirely sure the criticism of Painswick’s 1st is entirely fair. Sure significantly steep uphill walks and balls potentially rolling backwards etc ain’t the most pleasant in golfing terms and golf isn’t really meant to be a physical endurance test but haven’t golfers maybe got a little fussy, overly snowflake over the decades?
Earlier generations of golfers and caddies walked courses that were damn steep too, look at my thread about the course the much esteemed Dr Mack’ laid out at Rhayader for an example. And played courses in various not so necessarily ideal golfing areas, terrain and temperatures either like courses in tropical conditions, desert conditions etc. They also walked them, now folks want carts.
Maybe the stiff-upper-lip disappeared with the British Empire (“what, what, old chap”)!!!:)
Atb

Whats unfair about the criticism?  The hole is steeply uphill and a slog. The green end of the hole isn't nearly enough payoff to compensate for an awful climb. It doesn't matter when a hole was designed...ya gotta call it like it is.

Ciao

I didn't mind that hole, really.  It shouldn't be viewed in isolation.  You've got to get up there somehow; biting the bullet and doing it right away is not the worst way to go, as opposed to dragging it out over two or three holes.  And the hole certainly prompts discussion.

Not much of an endorsement. But then the hole shouldn't be endorsed 😎.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

An eclectic of par-4’s or par-5’s which go straight up hill and where walking not carting is the norm.
1st at Kington or Southerndown
2nd at Gullane #
3rd at Cleeve
4th at Welshpool
…. etc
Atb

[Sean_A]

An eclectic of par-4’s or par-5’s which go straight up hill and where walking not carting is the norm.
1st at Kington or Southerndown
2nd at Gullane #
3rd at Cleeve
4th at Welshpool
…. etc
Atb

But all are much better holes than 1 Painswick. I would also say the grade isn't as severe on the best of these holes. Plus, Kington 1 is a far more interesting drive because of the green angle.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The opening tee shot of an 18-hole course is a short par-4 that plays over unusual terrain. The players second shot is likely to be a pitch or short-iron from an uphill lie over a deep ex-quarry hollow to a small sloping green that’s challenging to hold with the return shot if the approach shot has been overhit.

Sounds rather quirky, rather interesting, rather GCAtlas fan like.
Where could it possibly be?

Atb