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Mark_Fine

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New talent?
« on: October 07, 2021, 01:01:49 PM »
Just reading about the over 1600 courses that have closed in the last 10-15 years in the U.S. alone while only a handful of new ones have/are being built.  Tough profession to make a living at if this is all you do and you are a golf course architect whose last name doesn’t start with an H or C or D  ;)  Everyone else is basically a remodeler out their tweaking some other architect’s work.

So how does the design industry attract new creative talent for the future as very few new architects are entering the field. The ASGCA is trying but they have more members leaving (one way or the other) then joining their organization (and very few will ever meet their requirements to fill the ranks).  Maybe only a handful of architects are needed and we don’t have to worry.  The problem if there is one will sort itself.   .
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:05:09 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2021, 01:34:28 PM »
It doesn’t need to attract new talent. There are more people than ever dying to get in to GCA and more creativity than we’ve ever seen…


The issue is clearly that most of them won’t get a chance. Or will have the creativity squeezed out of them whilst acting on the periphery of any job out there.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New talent?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2021, 01:53:18 PM »
Ally,
Are you sure about no need for more talent?  Also how do all those “who are dying to get in” show off their creativity if they are stuck with remodeling existing designs?  The ASGCA says if you aren’t routing new holes/courses you aren’t much of an architect.  But I think you are right, most won’t get a chance.  Maybe a dozen or so architects is enough.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2021, 03:14:35 PM »
The ASGCA Associate Program just kicked off in Cleveland with 14 participants attending our 75th Annual Meeting. A great program that is a path to membership. Gave them an opportunity to meet Gil Hanse, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw and 60 others.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2021, 04:46:35 PM »
That’s my point, Mark. The industry does not need to “attract new talent”. There’s too much talent for the industry.


I guess I’m reading you wrong though. If you simply mean that due to lack of projects, there is no outlet for the abundance of talent to shine through, then you are of course right. But that’s nothing new.


What are you suggesting? That all the old guard just step aside simultaneously? Or that America starts building 400 courses a year again?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 04:50:08 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Kalen Braley

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2021, 05:08:06 PM »
The world is always adjusting and adapting, this is nothing new.  And unlike Caddy Shack, the world doesn't really need more ditch diggers...

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2021, 05:08:42 PM »
There are a bunch of young talented guys who doing great work and haven’t joined the Asgca.



Tim Gallant

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2021, 06:01:09 PM »
It doesn’t need to attract new talent. There are more people than ever dying to get in to GCA and more creativity than we’ve ever seen…


The issue is clearly that most of them won’t get a chance. Or will have the creativity squeezed out of them whilst acting on the periphery of any job out there.


Ally,


On an initial thinking, I'd probably agree that there seems to be a lot of talent, but I'd actually challenge the creative part. It seems to me that those that are talented are mainly disciples of the big names, and for the most part, are mimicking their principles. Even King Collins at Landmand - it looks pretty wild until you realise there are template features utilised throughout the property (at least from photos, but reserving judgement). It's a surrealist version of Raynor. It's worth saying that I think there are some incredible courses being built right now, but I just wonder how creative they are on the spectrum.


It feels like we're at the back end of an era, and I think the industry needs more 'talent' from unconventional backgrounds who have never heard of C&C, Hanse, to truly unlock undiscovered creativity.


All that said, I'll be a bit of a hypocrite by saying that I think Blake Conant and Brian Schneider are doing some pretty creative things by taking inspiration from old quarries, victorian mounding, etc.


All this from a grasshoppers point of view - I have no actual knowledge of the industry, so happy to be blown out of the water by those with more knowledge than I (read everyone!). :)

Brian Marion

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2021, 06:25:17 PM »
There are a bunch of young talented guys who doing great work and haven’t joined the Asgca.


100%

Mike_Young

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2021, 08:51:50 PM »
There are a bunch of young talented guys who doing great work and haven’t joined the Asgca.
Yep.  They had their day...they pissed me off a long time ago....it began in an effort to restrict trade and is now what it is today.  Most of the younger people in the business, even their members, understand.  I just saw where they were trying to bring in a person to help promote others into it etc.  Perhaps the question needs to be asked....are the members there for the society or is the society there for the members....I have actually heard the entire operation is now contracted out....BUT, back to your point , I agree...  Dana Frye was telling me this week he ws flying somewhere to introduce Jason as the new prez.  He has always struck me as seeing thru the BS...let's see...but ...until it is objective instead of subjective it will never work....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ira Fishman

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2021, 07:10:10 AM »
Let's hope that the recent upswing in golf accelerates so that there are more new, sustainable projects. I do not doubt that there are plenty of gifted younger architects who might benefit. But I emphasize "might" because we still need a Mr. Youngscap or Mike Keiser who at the height of the Jones II--Fazio--Nicklaus era were willing to take a risk on quite unknown architects. C&C, Doak, and Kidd are now famous, but back then, they had very few designs in their portfolio. Success in hindsight is always easy to spot. Not so much in foresight.


Ira

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2021, 07:19:35 AM »
There are a bunch of young talented guys who doing great work and haven’t joined the Asgca.
Yep.  They had their day...they pissed me off a long time ago....it began in an effort to restrict trade and is now what it is today.  Most of the younger people in the business, even their members, understand.  I just saw where they were trying to bring in a person to help promote others into it etc.  Perhaps the question needs to be asked....are the members there for the society or is the society there for the members....I have actually heard the entire operation is now contracted out....BUT, back to your point , I agree...  Dana Frye was telling me this week he ws flying somewhere to introduce Jason as the new prez.  He has always struck me as seeing thru the BS...let's see...but ...until it is objective instead of subjective it will never work....


So to be fair… there are plenty of old guys that are doing great work and are very talented that are not members!  ;D 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New talent?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2021, 07:37:09 AM »
With so few new courses planned and/or opening it is hard for owners to “take a risk” on a unknown architect.  In some ways you can’t blame them. But there in lies the problem, too little new work to go around to attract and showcase new talent.  Most are left to be remodelers of some dead guys course or some other architect who retired or left the profession. And in many of those cases it is more about restoration than applying your own creative genius.  Very rarely are you completely re-routing golf holes or working with virgin landscapes.  Even Mike Young will tell you this kind of work doesn’t count as true golf course design!  This is not meant to be about the ASGCA, though I agree they could use their platform to help attract new talent (I think Forrest Richardson is definitely trying as he is a super creative guy and understands the need).  This is simply asking the question where does this profession go if we don’t find more ways to attract and showcase new talent? 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 07:57:10 AM by Mark_Fine »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2021, 08:00:30 AM »
Mark,


When you put it like that, I agree.


But what will happen is that favoured architects will appear in the next generation just like Coore, Doak and Hanse appeared in this.


The big question is whether those favoured architects will be the real talent or whether they will be the ones that sold / marketed themselves best. This generation has been lucky.


Let’s also not forget that having huge understanding and creative talent in the field does not guarantee that a young architect has all the other attributes needed to lead a successful project… though it’s a very good start!

Mike_Young

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2021, 08:04:23 AM »
1.So how does the design industry attract new creative talent for the future as very few new architects are entering the field. The ASGCA is trying but they have more members leaving (one way or the other) then joining their organization (and very few will ever meet their requirements to fill the ranks).  Maybe only a handful of architects are needed and we don’t have to worry.  The problem if there is one will sort itself. 

 2.This is simply asking the question where does this profession go if we don’t find more ways to attract and showcase new talent?
Mark,You ask two questions above:
1.  yes the problem is sorting itself right now.  And not to dwell on ASGCA but watch their requirements change ...Associations are an industry.  GCA is not...
2.  As much as GCA is not an industry , it is also not a profession.  It is a craft and the younger guys have been brought into the business realizing that.  IT IS WHAT IT IS...
 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2021, 08:58:29 AM »
I don’t know about some of you but I get called from time to time from younger people interested in the profession or craft as Mike calls it.  It is difficult to give them advice and not be discouraging.  Most design firms are downsizing and not taking on potential “new talent”.  How can they afford to?  What are you guys telling those aspiring to be a GCA?

Mike_Young

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2021, 10:04:02 AM »
I don’t know about some of you but I get called from time to time from younger people interested in the profession or craft as Mike calls it.  It is difficult to give them advice and not be discouraging.  Most design firms are downsizing and not taking on potential “new talent”.  How can they afford to?  What are you guys telling those aspiring to be a GCA?
I tell them:
1.  Don't think it's some glamour job and adhere to the perspective that even the "famous" of golf architecture are only known by a very few people and golfers, unless they are known for playing ability.  Much of the hype of the ODG's was to promote expertise in the renovation of their projects by experts who had slept with them etc etc...  An old course promoting their original designer was much cheaper than hiring the tour player signature when the trend first got started.

2.  If you can't sell then reconsider.  95% of the business is smoke and BS.  Sure you have to know drainage and irrigation etc but those are commodities just like drafting. 

3.  Learn to route and study routing even when you have your creative style down.  Looking at a plan some dude did 70 years ago and deciding how to enhance that is a totally different thing than routing a raw piece of land.

4.  Learn to shape in clay and not just sand.  And don't try to force something you built in sand into clay. 

5.  Don't ever get stuck in an office. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New talent?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2021, 10:22:08 AM »
1.So how does the design industry attract new creative talent for the future as very few new architects are entering the field. The ASGCA is trying but they have more members leaving (one way or the other) then joining their organization (and very few will ever meet their requirements to fill the ranks).  Maybe only a handful of architects are needed and we don’t have to worry.  The problem if there is one will sort itself. 

 2.This is simply asking the question where does this profession go if we don’t find more ways to attract and showcase new talent?
Mark,You ask two questions above:
1.  yes the problem is sorting itself right now.  And not to dwell on ASGCA but watch their requirements change ...Associations are an industry.  GCA is not...
2.  As much as GCA is not an industry , it is also not a profession.  It is a craft and the younger guys have been brought into the business realizing that.  IT IS WHAT IT IS...


Mike,


Not sure why you would continue to downgrade what a golf course architect is, other than you seem to think it helps you competitively.  Your advice is not far off in reality, but I figure many younger aspirants will in fact have those qualities required.


And, of course, I disagree with you that it is not a profession, because it is......and, to keep dwelling on ASGCA, yes, our admission standards have changed many times over the years I have been in the Society, and are still changing.  It is obviously hard to require 5 new courses in this environment, while it was required in the go-go 80's when we seemed to be getting applications from land planners and others we wouldn't consider gca's.  As usual, you are still bitching about things that may have been true 20 years ago but aren't now, and in some cases never were!


To answer Mark's original question, yes, I get some applications from the younger set.  Perhaps as many as I ever did.  And, ASGCA just accepted about a dozen (mostly) young new members who seemed thrilled to be in the profession and thrilled to be at the ASGCA meeting, so I think the next gen is in pretty good shape.


If you discourage them, I tend to think it's because you have a negative personality yourself (Mike), at least to some degree (Mark) :) , Or at the very least, are succumbing to grumpy old guy syndrome........ "Kids today!" 


I always tell them the first test to become a gca is having the will power to overcome all the negative Nellie's out there who say it isn't possible.  Heck, I came into the profession in similar (or worse) times in 1977...right after the 1974 oil embargo/Watergate/recession years and I was told golf was dead and that I was wasting my talents if I went into gca.  Add in the World Atlas of Golf, where the intro itself proclaimed golf dead because the tax write offs had been reduced, and look what happened.  I admit I did wonder if I was going to be able to finish my career in my chosen profession.  I did! 


Or, as my mentor said, "Golf has been going strong for over 500 years, I think it still has another few hundred years in it."


In my opinion, a lot of things will happen.  On the positive side, I think creativity will continue to increase.  On the negative side, perhaps through lack of more formal training/apprentices of whatever kind, I do see some of the same mistakes being made that us old guys made 30 years ago, by owners and gca's.  I guess each generation just has to learn their own lessons.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2021, 10:44:59 AM »

Mike,


Not sure why you would continue to downgrade what a golf course architect is, other than you seem to think it helps you competitively.  Your advice is not far off in reality, but I figure many younger aspirants will in fact have those qualities required.

And, of course, I disagree with you that it is not a profession, because it is......and, to keep dwelling on ASGCA, yes, our admission standards have changed many times over the years I have been in the Society, and are still changing.  It is obviously hard to require 5 new courses in this environment, while it was required in the go-go 80's when we seemed to be getting applications from land planners and others we wouldn't consider gca's.  As usual, you are still bitching about things that may have been true 20 years ago but aren't now, and in some cases never were!

Jeff,I knew I would get you to reply....it's ok for us to disagree.  Doesn't mean I'm negative.  I think I'm just more of a realist and I'm telling the young guys to not be idealist when it comes to choosing what they wish to do for a living.  Show me where I downgrade a golf architect.  Why would I do that to something I have done for over 30 years.  And I don't dwell on ASGCA.  If they had changed as much as you say then they would have corrected the things I bitched about so long ago. 
I think the young guys are great for the most part...I just try to deal in reality...
Come see me...
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2021, 11:06:00 AM »
Mike,


The hard part is, don't you think the ones that have succeeded have been idealists?  I mean, at least to start, LOL.  I find the youthful green as peas, wet behind the ears attitude refreshing myself. 


You might get a little crusty later, that is part of life, but in reality, I bet most of us "old timers" are still as passionate as we were when we were "yung 'uns."


And, I believe most practitioners young and old would consider it an honor to be part of this profession.  Yes, it is a profession that requires talent, training and respect.  Calling it a "craft" isn't true at all, no matter how many times you repeat that :( [size=78%].[/size]
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2021, 11:18:58 AM »
Jeff,
I have always believed you can do anything you set your mind to (look at how I got into this business when most shook there hard thinking I had little chance) but I am honest with those who call me. I tell them it is a very rewarding but very challenging and at times cutthroat business (but most are) that few succeed at (if succeeding is determined by the ability to make a living at it).  I have now been doing this for 20 years and I still recall the advice Jim Engh gave me when I first got in, “Have fun with it.”  I took that to heart.  Lucky for me it has worked out but if I had to do it as my only source of income I would have left the business years ago.  You do need some luck and someone to take a chance on you to make it.  But I totally disagree with Mike about smoke and mirrors.  BS might get you one job but in this business if you don’t deliver a product that your client and golfers who play there are happy about, you won’t get many more because everyone talks and your references will dry up quickly.  There is not enough work out there to not be good at what you do to be sustainable in this profession or craft, call it what you want. 


All that said, I still think the tall barriers to success and limited opportunities to shine will hold back a lot of new talent that the industry could benefit from. 

Mark_Fine

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2021, 11:26:23 AM »
And Mike, who cares about “routing skills”?  There are only a handful of architects who ever get that opportunity.  This game is about remodeling existing designs.  The architect’s skill set is changing and has been for years.  But there are still limited opportunities to showcase creative talent unless you are the select few.  Again, maybe (probably) it will sort itself. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 11:29:28 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2021, 11:42:30 AM »
Jeff,
I have always believed you can do anything you set your mind to (look at how I got into this business when most shook there hard thinking I had little chance) but I am honest with those who call me. I tell them it is a very rewarding but very challenging and at times cutthroat business (but most are) that few succeed at (if succeeding is determined by the ability to make a living at it).  I have now been doing this for 20 years and I still recall the advice Jim Engh gave me when I first got in, “Have fun with it.”  I took that to heart.  Lucky for me it has worked out but if I had to do it as my only source of income I would have left the business years ago.  You do need some luck and someone to take a chance on you to make it.  But I totally disagree with Mike about smoke and mirrors.  BS might get you one job but in this business if you don’t deliver a product that your client and golfers who play there are happy about, you won’t get many more because everyone talks and your references will dry up quickly.  There is not enough work out there to not be good at what you do to be sustainable in this profession or craft, call it what you want. 


All that said, I still think the tall barriers to success and limited opportunities to shine will hold back a lot of new talent that the industry could benefit from.


Mark,


Yeah, I think most of us at least had the benefit of a working wife to stabilize income, and a few had a nice trust fund.....Yes, there are barriers, but on the other hand, entry cost is low, i.e. working out of house, cost of drafting table, etc. (now we need some computers, too, and for CAD, pretty high end ones, but that is still just a few thousand $$$.


On my first project, I went in with a biz consultant who rented a Lincoln, wore high end suits, and generally tried to get credit for a lot of work he really didn't do.  I went in to the presentation with my 83 Honda, etc.  I ended up working there for years.  Some folks like names, some like big firms, some like the (Mike will love this) craft artisians.  Some love experience, others love youth and exhuberance.  So, I think there are at least some jobs for anyone who keeps at it.


It also helps to start young enough where you still have that naive, "What could possibly go wrong with this plan?" mentality.   I remember having about $6K in my first year biz account, and buying a new printer and fire proof file cabinet on sale and costing about $5K.  I never doubted I would succeed, even getting all the negative advice from those supposedly smarter than I.


Ben and Bill C gave a neat acceptance speech at the Ross Dinner the other night.  The last line was that both were idealists and romantics, and a businessman told them that individually they were bad but to put them together and they would be a disaster!  Just goes to show what "conventional wisdom" knows.


BTW, I also strongly disagree with Mike on the "smoke and mirrors."  When I broke in with Killian and Nugent, Larry Packard got most of the business around Chicago.  Like many, I tended to think he was doing something unseemly to get those projects.  Then I met him outside a presentation (where he beat us again, as it turned out) and he was the nicest guy on earth.  That is when I realized what it takes to sell yourself as a gca, and that most in the profession are really quite good, honest, and humble people.  I think clients can smell BS a mile away.....or more.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New talent?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2021, 12:02:18 PM »
I'm envisioning the scene from Fight Club where if guys wanted to become a member aka get in the biz, they have to stand on the front porch and face all manner of abuse before being admitted, to prove their determination and dedication to the cause.

I guess things could turn around, but seems there's still a certain measure of denial in the simple fact that golf has been far over-built for quite awhile, and contraction with very limited opportunities is the new normal. It is what it is.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: New talent?
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2021, 12:06:56 PM »
Jaeger, “a bunch” is not very technical in terms of a quantity. Get back to me next year and we’ll see if the 15 Associate participants in ASGCA’s new program has expanded to 20, 25, etc.

Mike Y, Actually in recent years (5 is a good span) ASGCA has accepted more new members than have left the business and resigned. During that time we have also had about 10 (two per year) pass away. At present I believe 184 plus 15 on their way. So, it’s a growth period in our history.

—-

Mike, I’ve always been remorse that ASGCA “pissed you off” and, of course, those three words do not quite tell any sort of story or give any explanation. My feeling is that you have a lot to give and share, so it’s always been a downer to me that we did not find a way to get you on board. From my standpoint, it’s a shame.

Mark F hits the nail — this art form should be about the “new” ideas, not the continual re-hash of punchbowls, redans and capes. We’ve done that. What’s next?

Also — To successfully sort through a large scale renovation it us my thought that ‘routing’ be known and understood. You might vastly improve a course by swapping a few holes, bending one more, or chopping one up into two. Routing is essential to even begin understanding what is there before you.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 12:08:38 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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