Does Charleston now have the best Muni in the United States???

[PCCraig]

I spent this past weekend with some friends playing golf in Charleston.


Our first round was at "The Muni" which I have not played since Troy Miller renovated the course during COVID.


I have long been a fan of the course, even when it was in less than stellar shape, as you could see it's wonderful bones. It also has a great location just off Maybank Hwy on the marsh.


The "new" holes are terrific. Thoughtful fairway bunkers were added but not overdone, and through the green it retains it's low country charm.


The greens are where the course excels. They certainly are a bit on the small side (especially as compared to the modern behemoths being built at "minimalist" courses), and they feature a significant amount of internal contour. Greens such as the 1st, a double plateau, are mesmerizing and bring interest to an otherwise flat piece of property.


Troy also built a wonderful Eden green on the 4th. The par-5 7th, with its massively built up green, is a hoot. You then get to play a 230+ yard Biarittz followed by the Alps 9th. Terrific fun.


Then once making the turn you are treated to an awesome redan on the 11th, with the back slope mimicking the maybank bridge in the distance. You then are exposed to a wonderful corner of the property, sitting out in the open near the water/marsh. The 12th is a well done Cape (with a cool ghost aiming tree). I played with a few guys who are members at other Raynor clubs and the 13th, the Road hole, was their favorite on the course. The added width and shaping there is amazingly fun - angles matter! The 14th is a Short with a wicked thumbprint.


The Clubhouse may be may favorite in golf, with a simple pro shop and bar/grill. But an authentic vibe that oozes "sense of place" - including locals heckling you on the first tee. Speaking of sense of place, Troy & team have done a wonderful job with the little details. There are *3ft* tall flagsticks, simple old school scorecards, boat cleats as tee markers, etc. Really thoughtful and cool.


What once was a course that you drove through to get to Kiawah, is now a golf course that is better than all but a couple courses on that island. Plus, it's all of $60 for out of towners to walk. If you are a GCA nerd that heads to Charleston and skip the Muni, you are undoubtedly missing out.


Don't miss it.

[Tim_Weiman]

The best I have seen is Wilmington (NC) Municipal.

[Steve Lang]

   Would have to see it, but I have to consider Ottawa Park as best, first site of the USGA US AM Pub Links... 1922


think we paid $30 there this past aug outing, used to be $0.50 before 10 am in early 60's... 

[Rob Marshall]

I played it the year before the renovation and I’m looking forward to getting back there.

[MCirba]

It may be.   For now.

[PCCraig]

Before folks start bringing up cheaper or more accessible courses, I don't mean Charleston is the best value...

[MCirba]

Pat,

My comment wasn't meant to be snarky or critical and I've not played the Charleston Muni which sounds terrific.

It was merely to note that there are a number of privately financed initiatives around some high-profile municipal golf courses underway in various cities and I suspect some may turn out to be excellent.   CommonGround is up there presently for me as an example of how to do it right.

[Doug Bolls]

I listed Charleston Muni as a wonderful surprise under Tommy's thread - I think you have a long ways to go the pass the superb collection of classic template holes. 


Although it doesn't get a lot of love on here, I think a case could be made for Torrey Pines. 


I have not been down to Houston to play Tom Doak's restoration of Houston Memorial, but everyone who's seen it raves about it.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

My comment wasn't meant to be snarky or critical and I've not played the Charleston Muni which sounds terrific.

It was merely to note that there are a number of privately financed initiatives around some high-profile municipal golf courses underway in various cities and I suspect some may turn out to be excellent.   CommonGround is up there presently for me as an example of how to do it right.

Hmmm Mike, which course could you possibly be referring to?   

[Troy Miller]

Thanks for the kind words, Pat.  Like Mike, I’m excited to see Cobbs Creek, and the collection of DC courses that National Links Trust is crafting. 


The Munisance is in full swing now, and I hope to have lots of competition for this conversation. 


Fore y’all

[MCirba]

Thanks for the kind words, Pat.  Like Mike, I’m excited to see Cobbs Creek, and the collection of DC courses that National Links Trust is crafting. 


The Munisance is in full swing now, and I hope to have lots of competition for this conversation. 


Fore y’all

Hey Troy,


Thanks and Congrats on Charleston Muni.  Helluva nice entre to this DG as well.


The coolest part about a lot of Golden Age built munis is that no one ever had the money to muck them up so many of them are still there as built, albeit with tree and shrub overgrowth and the maintenance effects of no capital expenditures for irrigation and soil treatments over the long decades.  The bones however...priceless.

[Carl Rogers]

I live in Tidewater VA and look forward to trip south to both.

[Paul Carey]

Best is always a pretty high standard.  In North Texas Rockwood in Fort Worth and Steven’s Park in Dallas are hard to beat.  They have both been redone by Colligan Golf and Trey Kemp.   Classic use of golden age architecture for the locals.  I’ll put them up as equals with Charleston and Wilmington.  The national “munissance” has been going on in Texas for years and without the notice of the golf architecture cool kids.

[DFarron]

Corica Park South is pretty good for a muni!

[Troy Miller]

Thanks for the kind words, Pat.  Like Mike, I’m excited to see Cobbs Creek, and the collection of DC courses that National Links Trust is crafting. 


The Munisance is in full swing now, and I hope to have lots of competition for this conversation. 


Fore y’all

Hey Troy,


Thanks and Congrats on Charleston Muni.  Helluva nice entre to this DG as well.


The coolest part about a lot of Golden Age built munis is that no one ever had the money to muck them up so many of them are still there as built, albeit with tree and shrub overgrowth and the maintenance effects of no capital expenditures for irrigation and soil treatments over the long decades.  The bones however...priceless.

Good Bones is absolutely right. There are many opportunities to bring these often well located, solid layouts back to life and make them into assets, both financially and socially for the cities they are in.  Its been done well in many places around the country, through various means of operation, but the one common link is serious buy in from community leaders, either public or private.


Giving them a sense of place both in time and geography is a key factor for success, in my opinion.  Charleston’s history and Raynor ties made that an easy connection at The Muni.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks for the kind words, Pat.  Like Mike, I’m excited to see Cobbs Creek, and the collection of DC courses that National Links Trust is crafting. 


The Munisance is in full swing now, and I hope to have lots of competition for this conversation. 


Fore y’all

Hey Troy,


Thanks and Congrats on Charleston Muni.  Helluva nice entre to this DG as well.


The coolest part about a lot of Golden Age built munis is that no one ever had the money to muck them up so many of them are still there as built, albeit with tree and shrub overgrowth and the maintenance effects of no capital expenditures for irrigation and soil treatments over the long decades.  The bones however...priceless.

Good Bones is absolutely right. There are many opportunities to bring these often well located, solid layouts back to life and make them into assets, both financially and socially for the cities they are in.  Its been done well in many places around the country, through various means of operation, but the one common link is serious buy in from community leaders, either public or private.


Giving them a sense of place both in time and geography is a key factor for success, in my opinion.  Charleston’s history and Raynor ties made that an easy connection at The Muni.

Troy, could you talk a little about what you are doing at Patriots Point in Charleston? Also at the Muni is there any mounding or buffer along the road or was that left as is. Really the only negative to the site other than the flooding on the Marsh holes right?

[PCCraig]

Giving them a sense of place both in time and geography is a key factor for success, in my opinion.  Charleston’s history and Raynor ties made that an easy connection at The Muni.

And this is where Charleston excels where many others listed above fall short, in my opinion.


Sure, Torrey Pines has the hang gliders but it also has a long, boring, hard, Rees Jones golf course designed for a US Open and is not nearly as interesting for everyday golfers as the Muni is...

[Andrew Harvie]

Corica Park South is pretty good for a muni!

But it's not as good as Presidio

[Bernie Bell]

Pat,

My comment wasn't meant to be snarky or critical and I've not played the Charleston Muni which sounds terrific.

It was merely to note that there are a number of privately financed initiatives around some high-profile municipal golf courses underway in various cities and I suspect some may turn out to be excellent.   CommonGround is up there presently for me as an example of how to do it right.

Hmmm Mike, which course could you possibly be referring to?   

East Potomac, Langston, Rock Creek in DC . . .  stay tuned

[Ronald Montesano]

George Wright?


Bethpage 1-5?

[Troy Miller]

Troy, could you talk a little about what you are doing at Patriots Point in Charleston? Also at the Muni is there any mounding or buffer along the road or was that left as is. Really the only negative to the site other than the flooding on the Marsh holes right?



Nothing was added to counteract the effects of Maybank Highway - at the end of the day anything we tried would have been largely ineffective and ugly. My hope is that I-526 will be completed in the next decade and the traffic counts through the course will drop by an estimate 60%.


Patriots Point will be a full blown redesign, and repositioned in the market as part of the overall resort development coming to the surrounding land.  My hope is to have a significant amount of sand, and the balance to be short grass, giving it the texture and linksy feel that the site deserves.  It will also have some significant elasticity, going out to 7400 yards to adjust for the constant windy conditions and alternate prevailing winds we experience in Charleston. It’s a tremendous location for golf, on Charleston Harbor, but the dirt underlying is, well, total trash.  The new course will all be built on imported sand, and provide some fast, firm, and fun conditions on a consistent basis.


Charleston’s golf offerings, particularly on the public end, have always been under performing for the opportunity the are provided - I hope that will change over the next several years.

[Rob Marshall]

Troy, could you talk a little about what you are doing at Patriots Point in Charleston? Also at the Muni is there any mounding or buffer along the road or was that left as is. Really the only negative to the site other than the flooding on the Marsh holes right?



Nothing was added to counteract the effects of Maybank Highway - at the end of the day anything we tried would have been largely ineffective and ugly. My hope is that I-526 will be completed in the next decade and the traffic counts through the course will drop by an estimate 60%.


Patriots Point will be a full blown redesign, and repositioned in the market as part of the overall resort development coming to the surrounding land.  My hope is to have a significant amount of sand, and the balance to be short grass, giving it the texture and linksy feel that the site deserves.  It will also have some significant elasticity, going out to 7400 yards to adjust for the constant windy conditions and alternate prevailing winds we experience in Charleston. It’s a tremendous location for golf, on Charleston Harbor, but the dirt underlying is, well, total trash.  The new course will all be built on imported sand, and provide some fast, firm, and fun conditions on a consistent basis.


Charleston’s golf offerings, particularly on the public end, have always been under performing for the opportunity the are provided - I hope that will change over the next several years.

"Patriots Point will be a full blown redesign, and repositioned in the market as part of the overall resort development coming to the surrounding land.  My hope is to have a significant amount of sand, and the balance to be short grass, giving it the texture and linksy feel that the site deserves.  It will also have some significant elasticity, going out to 7400 yards to adjust for the constant windy conditions and alternate prevailing winds we experience in Charleston. It’s a tremendous location for golf, on Charleston Harbor, but the dirt underlying is, well, total trash.  The new course will all be built on imported sand, and provide some fast, firm, and fun conditions on a consistent basis."
[/size][/color]
[/size]Thanks Troy. Is there a timeline on Patriots point? [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]My son and sister live in Mt Pleasant so I'm looking forward to getting back down there to see the Muni. I played  Thanksgiving  week before the renovation started.[/color]

[Brock Lynch]

I spent this past weekend with some friends playing golf in Charleston.


Our first round was at "The Muni" which I have not played since Troy Miller renovated the course during COVID.


I have long been a fan of the course, even when it was in less than stellar shape, as you could see it's wonderful bones. It also has a great location just off Maybank Hwy on the marsh.


The "new" holes are terrific. Thoughtful fairway bunkers were added but not overdone, and through the green it retains it's low country charm.


The greens are where the course excels. They certainly are a bit on the small side (especially as compared to the modern behemoths being built at "minimalist" courses), and they feature a significant amount of internal contour. Greens such as the 1st, a double plateau, are mesmerizing and bring interest to an otherwise flat piece of property.


Troy also built a wonderful Eden green on the 4th. The par-5 7th, with its massively built up green, is a hoot. You then get to play a 230+ yard Biarittz followed by the Alps 9th. Terrific fun.


Then once making the turn you are treated to an awesome redan on the 11th, with the back slope mimicking the maybank bridge in the distance. You then are exposed to a wonderful corner of the property, sitting out in the open near the water/marsh. The 12th is a well done Cape (with a cool ghost aiming tree). I played with a few guys who are members at other Raynor clubs and the 13th, the Road hole, was their favorite on the course. The added width and shaping there is amazingly fun - angles matter! The 14th is a Short with a wicked thumbprint.


The Clubhouse may be may favorite in golf, with a simple pro shop and bar/grill. But an authentic vibe that oozes "sense of place" - including locals heckling you on the first tee. Speaking of sense of place, Troy & team have done a wonderful job with the little details. There are *3ft* tall flagsticks, simple old school scorecards, boat cleats as tee markers, etc. Really thoughtful and cool.


What once was a course that you drove through to get to Kiawah, is now a golf course that is better than all but a couple courses on that island. Plus, it's all of $60 for out of towners to walk. If you are a GCA nerd that heads to Charleston and skip the Muni, you are undoubtedly missing out.


Don't miss it.

Played it for the first time today and thought it was wonderful. PCCraig has it all covered. Let me add that my wife loved it as well. She plays many shot along the ground, especially into the greens, and she thought it was very playable. Terrific job Troy.

[DFarron]

Corica Park South is pretty good for a muni!

Tough call….didn’t know Presidio was a muni

But it's not as good as Presidio

[Garland Bayley]

Since there are three munis that have hosted The US Open in recent years, I don't think Charleston has much of a bid for the top.