Difficult And Fun

[Ira Fishman]

Riffing off of the thread about Mike Clayton’s article regarding “resistance to scoring” which courses relative to your playing ability did you find difficult to score on but still fun to play? As a 16 trending in the wrong direction, I would put PH2, The Island Club, and Pasatiempo in that category. I probably would also include Bandon Trails and Ballyneal. In all cases, I played from the “correct” tees for my game.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

Ira,

I only went around Ballyneal a couple of times but didn't find it difficult.  Even the tougher long 4s were easy bogeys if you didn't try to be a hero.

Chambers Bay on the other hand, I got my ass handed to me, and still had a blast playing it.  I would also concur on Pasa.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,

I only went around Ballyneal a couple of times but didn't find it difficult.  Even the tougher long 4s were easy bogeys if you didn't try to be a hero.

Chambers Bay on the other hand, I got my ass handed to me, and still had a blast playing it.  I would also concur on Pasa.

Kalen ,


The bunkers at Ballyneal sealed my fate on both rounds. I also had quite a few three putts. On the other hand, my wife had two of her best rounds there.


Ira

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think different people have different definitions of "fun." I find Oakmont fun, but… I'm probably in the minority on that. I find tremendous fun in the grind.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think different people have different definitions of "fun." I find Oakmont fun, but… I'm probably in the minority on that. I find tremendous fun in the grind.

I was going to say something similar. I find different kinds of fun in different kinds of golf courses.


The ones that I never find fun are the wet, 7,000 yard modern over heavy clay with average architecture and average sites. The slogs.

[Peter Pallotta]

With 2+ decades of proselytizing by Ran et al, it's not a surprise that the phrase is "difficult BUT fun". How much more nuanced and interesting and accurate would be the phrase "difficult AND fun". The golf course it describes is one I'd want to play

[JMEvensky]

I think different people have different definitions of "fun." I find Oakmont fun, but… I'm probably in the minority on that. I find tremendous fun in the grind.

I was going to say something similar. I find different kinds of fun in different kinds of golf courses.


The ones that I never find fun are the wet, 7,000 yard modern over heavy clay with average architecture and average sites. The slogs.

Add me to this list. I could play WF-W every day.

[Peter Pallotta]

J - if Tom D posts, maybe he can remember what tour pros like Ben Crenshaw and Ian Baker Finch shot during their visits to the relatively benign (compared to WF-W) Crystal Downs. If memory serves, Gentle Ben might not have broken 80 on what was/is essentially intended as a 6500 yard summer resort course. And that was my experience of CD too -- difficult AND fun.

[jim_lewis]

Pine Valley
#2
Oakmont


I don't usually enjoy courses that beat me up, but I have kept going back to those three and loving every minute.

[Ira Fishman]

With 2+ decades of proselytizing by Ran et al, it's not a surprise that the phrase is "difficult BUT fun". How much more nuanced and interesting and accurate would be the phrase "difficult AND fun". The golf course it describes is one I'd want to play

A good amendment. I modified the subject line in the OP.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Many decades ago courses were sometimes described as “sporting”.
Atb

[Steve Kline]

I don't mind getting beaten if it's interesting architecture and I'm not losing balls.


#2 is the perfect course that is hard, fun, and interesting. Never shot under par there no matter what tees I played from. You have to play precise shots to score, but it would be really difficult for me to ever lose a ball there.

[David Ober]

For me, at my age and length, difficulty is almost entirely a function of length, if my back is healthy. Put me at ~6500 and I can still shoot par +/-  3-5 shots pretty much anywhere, as long as the weather isn't silly.


From that length, I definitely do appreciate it when a course can still play tough.


I love Lakeside when it's in tournament shape. From 6,500 yards, at a par of 70 and with firm and fast greens and tough pins, it's both difficult and fun for sure.


La Purisima from the right set of tees for me is definitely difficult and fun.


Riviera is right up there and might be the best example of this for me.


Rustic Canyon, in tournament shape, with a nice wind, can be difficult and very fun.


Call me a heretic, but some of Jack's courses -- even his "worst" -- can be both difficult and fun, as long as you play appropriate tees.

[David Ober]

I think different people have different definitions of "fun." I find Oakmont fun, but… I'm probably in the minority on that. I find tremendous fun in the grind.

Yup.

[Tim Leahy]

1  Olympic Club Lake
2. Spyglass Hill
3. Torrey Pines South
Love the challenge and beauty of these courses.

[jeffwarne]

The best places don't require "appropriate tees" to have fun.
I watched my father never break 100 once while I was growing up, yet rarely lose a ball, or even have to look for one.
Palmetto, Southampton,NGLA, TOC-everybody's on the same tee-the challenge is contained within the course, not its boundaries. (though they do exist)

[DFarron]

I second the motion on Pasatiempo, love playing there, last place I played before I left California.


Play like crap there every time and I’m always happy as a clam.


Go figure……

[corey miller]

Isn't the real answer on the "difficult" side of the equation the question of "why a certain course was/is difficult"? 


Compelling greens and a firm course with wind may be highly difficult and certainly would be more "fun" than a parkland course with narrow fairways and punitive rough. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think that the definition might be challenging and fun, i.e., you need to hit all the shots, like high, low, left, right, etc., but the punishment factor isn't real high.  Of course, recovery shots are all part of the fun.


To me, the challenge of hitting feathering a cut to a tucked pin about 45 ft deep is the same if the guarding hazard is a 5 ft deep bunker, rather than water or a 25 foot deep bunker, that will both add a stroke or more to your score.


Ditto hitting any kind of tee shot to a narrow fw is a challenge, losing your ball in deep rough isn't fun (at least too often)


And reasonably rolling greens that are challenging to read, have variety, etc., but very few contours that might make your approach putt "run away from you like a pig possessed by the devil," as Colt once said.


Of course, one or two really hard hazards function as conversation pieces, which is both difficult and fun, if not overdone.


As always, just MHO.

[David Ober]

The best places don't require "appropriate tees" to have fun.
I watched my father never break 100 once while I was growing up, yet rarely lose a ball, or even have to look for one.
Palmetto, Southampton,NGLA, TOC-everybody's on the same tee-the challenge is contained within the course, not its boundaries. (though they do exist)

That's a totally fair statement, but it doesn't negate with some of us have said about appropriate tease. Some courses are a lot of fun from up tees even though they are very difficult.


I actually really enjoy playing my old home course, Bear Creek, in Murrieta California, from the blue tees.


It is not one of Jack's best, but it is a lot of fun to play from 6450 yards with a slope of 138. In the winter, the slope is probably more like 145, and I love how exacting the approach shots are.

[Tom_Doak]

J - if Tom D posts, maybe he can remember what tour pros like Ben Crenshaw and Ian Baker Finch shot during their visits to the relatively benign (compared to WF-W) Crystal Downs. If memory serves, Gentle Ben might not have broken 80 on what was/is essentially intended as a 6500 yard summer resort course. And that was my experience of CD too -- difficult AND fun.

Ben shot 74 on a very windy afternoon at the Downs in 1986, losing to the head pro by one.  That was the Thursday of the Buick Open, on the heels of a first-round 67, and a prelude to shooting 18-under to win the event.


IBF shot 71, on a calmer day.  He played beautifully and said afterward he wished he had tried a little harder to score better, but thought that might have ruined it for him.


I didn’t keep a card for Zac Blair this summer but I think he shot 69, punctuated by a tap-in eagle at the 7th. He played beautifully, just didn’t make many putts.

[Mark Pearce]

Carnoustie
Kingston Heath
Yale

[Thomas Dai]

Battling a difficult course, or difficult conditions or circumstances isn’t just a test of someone’s physical ability to hit a small ball with a stick into a small hole it’s also a mental test. And mental tests can be fun.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going and all that.
Atb

[archie_struthers]

 


A lot of the great courses for this description. Certainly if you look at the top ten many fit the bill .


What was fun about caddying at Pine Valley was watching good players run off a bunch of pars and even a few birdies before the net eventually closed on them
due to a wayward shot !  The lack of heavy rough and wide fairways permit some good scoring if they can putt a little bit.  Felt the same about Shinnecock and Merion when they weren’t in Tournament set up mode .


Methinks benign and really fun might be even tougher to design given the equipment advances !

[JMEvensky]

A lot of the great courses for this description. Certainly if you look at the top ten many fit the bill .


What was fun about caddying at Pine Valley was watching good players run off a bunch of pars and even a few birdies before the net eventually closed on them
due to a wayward shot !  The lack of heavy rough and wide fairways permit some good scoring if they can putt a little bit.  Felt the same about Shinnecock and Merion when they weren’t in Tournament set up mode .


Methinks benign and really fun might be even tougher to design given the equipment advances !

What's up Archie?


I think you hit on the most important factor--whether a difficult course is set up for regular member play or a tournament. Once a difficult course is turned up to 11, the fun part disappears very quickly.