Solheim Rules Kerfuffle

[JohnVDB]

John,


Isn’t the Solheim Cup being played under special circumstances where the rules officials have more authority and the players less? I don’t believe whatever Korda determined mattered.

When there is a referee assigned to accompany a match, he or she must act on any issue witnessed by them or reported to them.  A player may request a ruling, but can’t tell the referee to ignore something.  With no referee assigned the player may silently ignore a violation. This means that Korda couldn’t say something to her opponent about the violation but agree not to enforce the rule.

[Sean_A]

John,


Isn’t the Solheim Cup being played under special circumstances where the rules officials have more authority and the players less? I don’t believe whatever Korda determined mattered.

When there is a referee assigned to accompany a match, he or she must act on any issue witnessed by them or reported to them.  A player may request a ruling, but can’t tell the referee to ignore something.  With no referee assigned the player may silently ignore a violation. This means that Korda couldn’t say something to her opponent about the violation but agree not to enforce the rule.

Do you think there was an issue? In other words, could the fact that the ball was picked up prior to Korda having an opportunity to see if more time would be allowed if it could be observed the ball was overhanging the hole? I ask because I can't tell from TV footage. It's close, but I can't see how anyone can tell without being very close to the ball.

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Nellie had plenty of time to tell her not to pick it up. The Euro did not IMO rush to pick it up and contrary to what Nellie said she watched the Euro pick it up. After it was picked up she said nothing.

You could not possibly have watched this in real time and come to this opinion of what happened, and you couldn't be more wrong.  Nobody has said Sagstrom "rushed", but there was NO way that Korda had time to process what was happening, much less tell Sagstrom to leave the ball there.  In fact, there is no reason to even believe that Korda knew that Sagstrom was going to pick up the ball until it was already done.

The entire incident, from the time the putt got to the hole until the time that Sagstrom picked it up, happened REALLY fast.  There is no reason to impugn bad motives to Sagstrom, nor negligence to Korda.  It was unfortunate, but the last clear chance to avoid the issue at hand belonged to Sagstrom, not Korda.  There's just no way around that, and it's not reasonable to think otherwise.

i really like Sagstrom, but she just inadvertently screwed up.  It could have happened to any player in the field, or to any of us.  Stuff happens.  And there was an official with each match that had a duty to make it right; that's what officials are there for.  The only alternative is to NOT apply the appropriate rules, and that becomes a pretty slippery slope that I want no part of.

[Rob Marshall]

Nellie had plenty of time to tell her not to pick it up. The Euro did not IMO rush to pick it up and contrary to what Nellie said she watched the Euro pick it up. After it was picked up she said nothing.

You could not possibly have watched this in real time and come to this opinion of what happened, and you couldn't be more wrong.  Nobody has said Sagstrom "rushed", but there was NO way that Korda had time to process what was happening, much less tell Sagstrom to leave the ball there.  In fact, there is no reason to even believe that Korda knew that Sagstrom was going to pick up the ball until it was already done.

The entire incident, from the time the putt got to the hole until the time that Sagstrom picked it up, happened REALLY fast.  There is no reason to impugn bad motives to Sagstrom, nor negligence to Korda.  It was unfortunate, but the last clear chance to avoid the issue at hand belonged to Sagstrom, not Korda.  There's just no way around that, and it's not reasonable to think otherwise.

i really like Sagstrom, but she just inadvertently screwed up.  It could have happened to any player in the field, or to any of us.  Stuff happens.  And there was an official with each match that had a duty to make it right; that's what officials are there for.  The only alternative is to NOT apply the appropriate rules, and that becomes a pretty slippery slope that I want no part of.

AG, Nellie said she didn't see Sagstrom picking up the ball. If you watch the video Nellie was looking directly at the ball. I don't think she is lying, I think you are correct things happened very fast but it looks to me like she could have said don't pick it up. I certainly could be wrong. I still have yet to see a photo that shows the ball overhanging the lip and as Jeff pointed out you can actually see the ball roll backwards at the lip. I would like to see how they can to the conclusion it was hanging over the lip.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When there is a referee assigned to accompany a match, he or she must act on any issue witnessed by them or reported to them.  A player may request a ruling, but can’t tell the referee to ignore something.  With no referee assigned the player may silently ignore a violation. This means that Korda couldn’t say something to her opponent about the violation but agree not to enforce the rule.

I sometimes have a tough time reconciling this with the idea that in match play you can overlook a breach of the rules (so long as there's no agreement to do so). I usually then just tell myself that you can't be watching your opponents like a hawk all the time, so having a referee to help ensure that the match is played properly is a good thing, too.

If a player plays out of turn (they weren't away), if the referee notices they would say something, even if the other player doesn't care… right? Because ultimately the other player still has the option to cancel or allow the stroke to stand under the Rules, yes? But if a player grounds their club in a bunker before playing a shot, the opponent doesn't see it, and the referee points it out, then that's not something a player can choose to ignore (only if they saw it themselves and chose not to say anything), once it's brought to their direct attention… yes?

Didn't someone (not the caddie at Bandon) ground their club in a fairway bunker or something six or eight or twelve years ago in maybe a semi-finals match or a final and lose the hole? Was the referee the one who pointed that out?

[Brock Lynch]

Is don’t touch your opponent’s ball unless it will cause them no ill effect too common sense here?

I've played several matches this year and there was never an instance where either I or my opponent picked up the other's ball. Watching this year's Solheim Cup, it seems like there is a great desire to do so. Why the need to pick up another players ball?

[John Kavanaugh]

Because it is an act of kindness. Now if you really want to be an angel get your opponents ball out of the hole.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

For ease of reference - https://twitter.com/i/status/1434254530536001544
Question - 10 secs rule - if Sagstrom hadn't picked up Nellies ball and Nellie had continued to sit on her knees on the grass when the ball was overhanging the hole rather than walk up to it, wait 9.9 secs and tap it in would Nellie have been penalised and the Euro's have won the hole?
Isn't the player supposed to get to their ball in 'reasonable time'. Surely sitting on your knees on the grass isn't 'reasonably time'?
Probably be no bad thing if the referee involved in this incident absented herself from officiating in any other matches in this event.
Atb
PS - wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?

Thomas,
There is no penalty for waiting too long as long as the ball doesn’t subsequently fall in the hole in which case it would be a one stroke penalty which is the same as tapping in the ball which is the point of the Rule.  After 10 seconds, tap it in as the result is the same. But in this case the putt was conceded so it didn’t matter if she waited longer as the hole was over.
It should be noted that the clock doesn’t start when the ball stops.  The player has a reasonable amount of time to react plus time to reach the hole before the clock starts.  This could be minutes if you were 200 yards from the hole and three other players had to hit their shots before you got to the green

Thanks for this John. Who is the arbitrator of what is ‘reasonable time’. Lying around on the floor surely shouldn’t be part of ‘reasonable time’?
Atb

As with most things in golf the arbiter of what is and isn't "reasonable" is primarily left up to the player first.  Now surely at some point an official will step in if a player has taken it too far.   But my recollection (and granted it has been a lot of years) when I was doing some rules officiating and sitting in on classes with the USGA or CGA, they addressed this specific situation.  And yes "Lying on the floor" is covered under reasonable time.   They specifically pointed out that a player leaving a putt on the lip has a "reasonable" expectation of some time to react in anguish (they even specifically mentioned someone going to their knees) before gathering themselves, and walking to the hole (sometimes quite slowly), and then when they reach the ball does the 10 seconds they have to either tap it in or mark it start.  So the total time could be quite a bit longer than just the 10 seconds.   


The announcers kept saying Sagstrom picked up the ball in 7 seconds, and while that wss true, the 10 second period required hadn't even started being counted, because Nelly hadn't gotten to the hole yet,.  I counter that if Nelly ran to the hole Kevin Na style she might not have gotten there before [size=78%]Sagstrom. I certainly did not think that Nelly's reaction was "unreasonable" and had she gotten up and walked over to the hole the 10 seconds would have started at that time.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]As an aside I wonder had I done that little [/size]maneuver[size=78%] that Nelly did falling back [/size]with[size=78%] both knees bent at nearly 180 deg, I most likely would not have been able to get back up [/size]without[size=78%] some outside assistance.  [/size]Would[size=78%] [/size]that[size=78%] have been included in my own personal "reasonable time"?  [/size]although[size=78%] I also probably would not have been able to walk to finish the match from that point on so it would have been moot...[/size][size=78%]

[Rob Marshall]

Is don’t touch your opponent’s ball unless it will cause them no ill effect too common sense here?

I've played several matches this year and there was never an instance where either I or my opponent picked up the other's ball. Watching this year's Solheim Cup, it seems like there is a great desire to do so. Why the need to pick up another players ball?

I played in matches over the weekend. Not only did I pick up an opponent's ball and throw it back to him I also fixed some of his ball marks. It's called sportsmanship...........

[Jim_Coleman]

   Me too. Do it all the time. When someone misses a longish putt, I almost always knock it back to him when I concede the putt. Seems like a common courtesy to me.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

   Me too. Do it all the time. When someone misses a longish putt, I almost always knock it back to him when I concede the putt. Seems like a common courtesy to me.

Yeah, I can't think of someone who hasn't done this. But they don't do it when the ball is possibly overhanging the hole.

[Jim_Coleman]

   That’s true. But I have no doubt that it never crossed the Euro player’s mind that the ball had any chance of dropping. As I said before, there is no bad intent here.  Just a mistake. Do you have any doubt that nothing would have been said if the official hadn’t intervened (not that there’s anything wrong that she did)?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

   That’s true. But I have no doubt that it never crossed the Euro player’s mind that the ball had any chance of dropping. As I said before, there is no bad intent here.  Just a mistake. Do you have any doubt that nothing would have been said if the official hadn’t intervened (not that there’s anything wrong that she did)?

I do think Nelly looked over to the side in a funny way right after catching the ball, but a) that's probably just in hindsight knowing what was going to happen, and b) since she didn't say anything even after that until the referee met with them all, yeah, probably nothing would have happened as a result.

So in some ways (not really), the U.S. lost by even more than 15-13. 

[Kyle Harris]

Is don’t touch your opponent’s ball unless it will cause them no ill effect too common sense here?

I've played several matches this year and there was never an instance where either I or my opponent picked up the other's ball. Watching this year's Solheim Cup, it seems like there is a great desire to do so. Why the need to pick up another players ball?

I played in matches over the weekend. Not only did I pick up an opponent's ball and throw it back to him I also fixed some of his ball marks. It's called sportsmanship...........

Sorry, I probably wasn't as clear. In your case knocking the putt back to the opponent is not causing them any harm - presuming that by doing so you were conceding not just the putt, but the hole.

If the putt is even close-ish to the hole (within one revolution)... don't touch it.

[Brian_Ewen]

I've played several matches this year and there was never an instance where either I or my opponent picked up the other's ball. Watching this year's Solheim Cup, it seems like there is a great desire to do so. Why the need to pick up another players ball?

Courtesy .... obviously 

[Thomas Dai]

I've played several matches this year and there was never an instance where either I or my opponent picked up the other's ball. Watching this year's Solheim Cup, it seems like there is a great desire to do so. Why the need to pick up another players ball?

Courtesy .... obviously 

To check if it's same type of ball that the other person (or pair if in foresomes) has been playing on previous holes. Things 'happen' ...... see Seve/Ollie:Beck/Zinger at Kiawah Island.
atb

[Padraig Dooley]

A quick question, if the referee hadn't intervened would there be any controversy or kerfuffle that they hadn't?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

A quick question, if the referee hadn't intervened would there be any controversy or kerfuffle that they hadn't?

I don't think we'd have known what the RO assigned to that group did or didn't see.

[Sean_A]

A quick question, if the referee hadn't intervened would there be any controversy or kerfuffle that they hadn't?

I think there may have been a look or two and the Euro Captain has a word with the team, but nothing serious. Thus is why so many people have an issue with the ruling.

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Really, this is a pretty incredible discussion.  Viewing something relatively simple as very complex is puzzling.


There was a Rules official with every match, every day; that person has nothing else to do, no other function, but to insure that the Rules are followed. 


Sagstrom screwed up. I think she's a great player, and from everything I hear, a great person, but she just screwed up. It was unfortunate, it was inadvertent, but it was a screw up. 


Why?  She made NO attempt to determine if any part of the ball was overhanging the hole, and then touched the ball; that was a mistake either of commission (picking up an overhanging ball) or omission (not knowing the rule about an overhanging ball that has come to rest).  Unfortunate, inadvertent, but a screw up nonetheless.   


And that's all there is to it.  Really, Korda wasn't even involved after the ball left her putter. 


And the idea that the official shouldn't have pursued the matter is the most absurd idea of all.  If you think that, don't write it.  If you've written it, don't write it again.  And if you still believe that, then try to get thru the rest of your life as a sports fan without EVER bitching about officials in any sport, because a call not made is just as impactful as a call that is missed.  If you think that the official decided that match, understand that if the official hadn't dealt with the matter, that, too, would have been deciding the match.  You can't have it both ways.

[John Kavanaugh]

In poker you have to protect your hand. A golfer also has a responsibility to protect their ball when on the green.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Really, this is a pretty incredible discussion.  Viewing something relatively simple as very complex is puzzling. x

There was a Rules official with every match, every day; that person has nothing else to do, no other function, but to insure that the Rules are followed. 

Sagstrom screwed up. I think she's a great player, and from everything I hear, a great person, but she just screwed up. It was unfortunate, it was inadvertent, but it was a screw up. 

Why?  She made NO attempt to determine if any part of the ball was overhanging the hole, and then touched the ball; that was a mistake either of commission (picking up an overhanging ball) or omission (not knowing the rule about an overhanging ball that has come to rest).  Unfortunate, inadvertent, but a screw up nonetheless.   

And that's all there is to it.  Really, Korda wasn't even involved after the ball left her putter. 

And the idea that the official shouldn't have pursued the matter is the most absurd idea of all.  If you think that, don't write it.  If you've written it, don't write it again.  And if you still believe that, then try to get thru the rest of your life as a sports fan without EVER bitching about officials in any sport, because a call not made is just as impactful as a call that is missed.  If you think that the official decided that match, understand that if the official hadn't dealt with the matter, that, too, would have been deciding the match.  You can't have it both ways.

Great post.

I don't know why the reaction from Sagstrom wasn't just "Oh, yeah, total brain fart there. I was just trying to be polite, the thought never entered my mind about it overhanging the hole. Just a brain fart. We accepted it and moved on."

Why all the drama? She goofed, as you said.

[JESII]

She admitted the mistake...but not because the ball had a chance to go in. She felt it was past the hole and not looking in the hole at all. She simply recognized she shouldn't have left it up to someone else's perception of where the ball was.


For some reason, NBC never zoomed in the way they did when Tiger or Patrick Reed were playing around near their ball in the rough.

[Rob Marshall]

She admitted the mistake...but not because the ball had a chance to go in. She felt it was past the hole and not looking in the hole at all. She simply recognized she shouldn't have left it up to someone else's perception of where the ball was.


For some reason, NBC never zoomed in the way they did when Tiger or Patrick Reed were playing around near their ball in the rough.

That’s why it would be interesting to know how they determined it was overhanging the hole.

[Sean_A]

She admitted the mistake...but not because the ball had a chance to go in. She felt it was past the hole and not looking in the hole at all. She simply recognized she shouldn't have left it up to someone else's perception of where the ball was.


For some reason, NBC never zoomed in the way they did when Tiger or Patrick Reed were playing around near their ball in the rough.

That’s why it would be interesting to know how they determined it was overhanging the hole.

So far as I can tell, nobody except for possibly Sagstrom knows if the ball was overhanging because Sagstrom took a unilateral decision to pick up the ball. The ball was certainly close enough to warrant further inspection. Additionally, if the ball was on the high side of the hole nobody can say for certain that it wouldn't have dropped. I have seen balls come to rest than drop after several seconds.

Ciao