Solheim Rules Kerfuffle

[Jim_Coleman]

   To all you rules guys out there. Would you have interjected yourself uninvited? Or would you have swallowed your whistle?

[Rob Marshall]

From the video I saw you couldn’t tell if it was overhanging the cup.

[JESII]

Jim,


I don’t think she was I invited.


I didn’t see the Americans bring in the official but I did see Nelly Korda a little perplexed about the ball being picked up so quick.


Interesting rule.

[Jim_Coleman]

   She wasn’t invited. My question is whether she was obliged to interject, or had the discretion not to.  Because she was the official assigned to that match, I believe she had to butt in, even if no player complained - see Rule 20-1b(1). If she were just a wandering official assigned to make rulings when called upon, she couldn’t intervene uninvited, even if she observed a violation.

[John Kavanaugh]

An official watching television called the official with the group.

[Peter Flory]

It seems like what all reasonable people really want is for the officials to be in the background unless they are called upon.  Maybe they should make that a rule.  Especially in an exhibition with sportsmanship at its core and no money on the line. 

[Pete_Pittock]

An official watching television called the official with the group.

To clarify, that would have been an official who was a member of the Solheim Cup Rules Committee.

[mike_malone]

Please use OT warning. This is golf architecture discussion website.

[jeffwarne]

The rules official made the right call.
She was assigned to the match.
A rules infraction is a rules infraction-you don't get to pick and choose.
If she had not been assigned to the match she would not have intervened unless a player asked.
It is not up to the opposing player to decide whether your ball has an opportunity to fall-by picking it up so quickly she denied Korda her right to walk to the ball and wait 10 seconds.I'm very curious to know how many other times she actually picked up Korda or her partner's ball when a putt was conceded.
It was close enough they had to look at it on TV, and borderline whether it was "overhanging" the hole. By picking it up, she made it her own call and no one else's.I also felt like she intentionally picked it up quickly(but that's just pure speculation)
Korda was rightfully perplexed, as was I, and if the official had to wait for Korda to object, suddenly the onus would be on her, and she would be the bad person if she raised an objection.
Which is why an official is assigned to the matches.
The official made a gutsy and correct call.


To answer the question, if I were assigned to to the match, and knew there was video available, I definitely would've intervened. I wouldn't have if I wasn't convinced the ball was overhanging, and knew there was no video. But I would've stopped her as she approached the ball if I had the chance-no harm in waiting.


It's just always safer to avoid touching anyone's ball until you know you are clear.

[Andy Shulman]

Jim - As you noted, Rule 20-1b(1) explains why the referee was obliged to intervene.  And, Jeff explained why that ruling was correct.  It was mentioned during the TV coverage that this and many other rules specific to match play were reviewed with all players before the matches began.  And, no other concession I saw involved a player touching and lifting an opponent's ball.  It seemed pretty obvious that the actions of the Euro (Sagstrom) were intended to prevent the ball from having a chance to fall into the hole.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I also felt like she intentionally picked it up quickly(but that's just pure speculation)

One report in a British paper said she was trying to speed things along as the group had been told (by the same official - my speculation) to speed things up.


The ball had reportedly been there 7 seconds.


It may be the right decision but it's so wrong for golf.

[Thomas Dai]

For ease of reference - https://twitter.com/i/status/1434254530536001544

Question - 10 secs rule - if Sagstrom hadn't picked up Nellies ball and Nellie had continued to sit on her knees on the grass when the ball was overhanging the hole rather than walk up to it, wait 9.9 secs and tap it in would Nellie have been penalised and the Euro's have won the hole?
Isn't the player supposed to get to their ball in 'reasonable time'. Surely sitting on your knees on the grass isn't 'reasonably time'?

Probably be no bad thing if the referee involved in this incident absented herself from officiating in any other matches in this event.

Atb

PS - wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?

[Sean_A]

I can't tell if the ball is overhanging. Was it on the high or low side of the hole? That to me would be the deciding factor if it's overhanging or not.

It doesn't look like the Euro played swooped in quickly to me.

If this is what matchplay golf has come to God save us all.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I can't tell if the ball is overhanging.

That is EXACTLY the whole point.Some angles showed it overhanging, others didn't.
It is NOT the opponent's call to decide, until, the mandated amount of time has elapsed-then it does not matter.That's why there is a rule covering the situation.


I doubt the ball would've fallen in also. It looked to me like it got a "donut effect" and actually moved slightly away from the hole at the very end.
(but my opinion means nothing, and it certanly could've been blown in by wind, but was never given the "chance" albeit a low one)
Just leave the ball alone.
OT and very besides the point, BUT I'd be curious to know how many other times she picked up a ball, rather than merely conceding it.


Tony, how can the right call be bad for golf?
It sucks for both sides, but we're all making a lot of assumptions here.
Which is why there is a rule.
Polular opinion should mean nothing to the implementation of the rule, and "golf" will be just fine.

[jeffwarne]

For ease of reference - https://twitter.com/i/status/1434254530536001544

Question - 10 secs rule - if Sagstrom hadn't picked up Nellies ball and Nellie had continued to sit on her knees on the grass when the ball was overhanging the hole rather than walk up to it, wait 9.9 secs and tap it in would Nellie have been penalised and the Euro's have won the hole?
Isn't the player supposed to get to their ball in 'reasonable time'. Surely sitting on your knees on the grass isn't 'reasonably time'?

Probably be no bad thing if the referee involved in this incident absented herself from officiating in any other matches in this event.

Atb

PS - wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?

Thomas, imagine if we disqualied every refereee who made a tough call,albeit an unpopular one, but one that he was obligated to make, and was the correct call.
What message would that send exactly?
Only enforce the rules that are popular or against unpopular players?


NOBODY likes making a tough call.That's why they're called tough calls.

[David_Tepper]

"wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?"

Thomas -

If you are referring to Petr Korda's career as a tennis player, how is that in any way related to the events of yesterday at the Solheim Cup?

DT

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Was coaching my college team yesterday so I didn't see this, but I'd heard about it.

The right call was made and Europe goofed. Don't touch another player's ball unless you know you can. Europe breached the Rules and paid for it with the loss of hole when the ball probably wasn't going to fall in.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Wade Whitehead]

Was coaching my college team yesterday so I didn't see this, but I'd heard about it.

The right call was made and Europe goofed. Don't touch another player's ball unless you know you can. Europe breached the Rules and paid for it with the loss of hole when the ball probably wasn't going to fall in.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

+1

Especially in an event like this, there is rarely a reason to touch any equipment, including a golf ball, belonging to another player.

WW

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it about time to stop major oil companies from sponsoring televised events? Or since we can't even get the pronouns of officials correct does no one care?

[David_Tepper]

John K. -

I think we could ask the same about your lame, troll-ish posts.

DT

[John Kavanaugh]

John K. -

I think we could ask the same about your lame, troll-ish posts.

DT

Tell that to Joe Camel.

[jeffwarne]

Is it about time to stop major oil companies from sponsoring televised events? Or since we can't even get the pronouns of officials correct does no one care?

LOL-I deserved that.
Actually was waitin for John V. to step in and kibosh me on the rules and do the quiet delete....

[JohnVDB]

For ease of reference - https://twitter.com/i/status/1434254530536001544

Question - 10 secs rule - if Sagstrom hadn't picked up Nellies ball and Nellie had continued to sit on her knees on the grass when the ball was overhanging the hole rather than walk up to it, wait 9.9 secs and tap it in would Nellie have been penalised and the Euro's have won the hole?
Isn't the player supposed to get to their ball in 'reasonable time'. Surely sitting on your knees on the grass isn't 'reasonably time'?

Probably be no bad thing if the referee involved in this incident absented herself from officiating in any other matches in this event.

Atb

PS - wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?

Thomas,


There is no penalty for waiting too long as long as the ball doesn’t subsequently fall in the hole in which case it would be a one stroke penalty which is the same as tapping in the ball which is the point of the Rule.  After 10 seconds, tap it in as the result is the same. But in this case the putt was conceded so it didn’t matter if she waited longer as the hole was over.




It should be noted that the clock doesn’t start when the ball stops.  The player has a reasonable amount of time to react plus time to reach the hole before the clock starts.  This could be minutes if you were 200 yards from the hole and three other players had to hit their shots before you got to the green

[Thomas Dai]

For ease of reference - https://twitter.com/i/status/1434254530536001544
Question - 10 secs rule - if Sagstrom hadn't picked up Nellies ball and Nellie had continued to sit on her knees on the grass when the ball was overhanging the hole rather than walk up to it, wait 9.9 secs and tap it in would Nellie have been penalised and the Euro's have won the hole?
Isn't the player supposed to get to their ball in 'reasonable time'. Surely sitting on your knees on the grass isn't 'reasonably time'?
Probably be no bad thing if the referee involved in this incident absented herself from officiating in any other matches in this event.
Atb
PS - wasn’t one of the fathers of one of the players involved also involved in an interesting rules issue towards the end of his career in another sport?

Thomas,
There is no penalty for waiting too long as long as the ball doesn’t subsequently fall in the hole in which case it would be a one stroke penalty which is the same as tapping in the ball which is the point of the Rule.  After 10 seconds, tap it in as the result is the same. But in this case the putt was conceded so it didn’t matter if she waited longer as the hole was over.
It should be noted that the clock doesn’t start when the ball stops.  The player has a reasonable amount of time to react plus time to reach the hole before the clock starts.  This could be minutes if you were 200 yards from the hole and three other players had to hit their shots before you got to the green

Thanks for this John. Who is the arbitrator of what is ‘reasonable time’. Lying around on the floor surely shouldn’t be part of ‘reasonable time’?
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

You have to admit that the commercials promoting burning gas for a better quality of life are hilarious. Besides that, where is the fun? Even the announcers begging for every putt to be given are adding to the anxiety. Did Jessica Korda just request quiet on the tee?