Renovation plans for UNC Finley

[A.G._Crockett]

My current membership/home course is UNC Finley, a complete makeover in 1998 by Fazio of a 50's George Cobb design.  I have a question that I know has been discussed before, but I can't find it.


There is currently a project in the design phase, with the Davis Love organization sort of driving the bus, that revolves around building a new team center and team practice area where the current 10th and 11th holes are, then building two new holes on the west side of Finley Golf Course Road (where holes 12-18 are currently), which would put 9 holes on either side of the road instead of current the 11/9 configuration.  I don't like the project at all, though there is much to learn about it yet.  I've asked to see the drawings, and got a firm "NO!" from the Associate AD in charge of the golf course. 


Perhaps most significantly, the 9's would be flipped, with #1 being the current 12th hole, which is a par 3.  It's worth noting for those of you familiar with the course, that the current 13th, a par 5, would become two holes (a four and a three).  The current par 3 13th would go away, replaced by a short par 4, and a new par three would be built behind the current 15th green playing up to the lower part of the current 17th green, with the 17th green moving to the left as you face it from the 17th fairway.  If you're keeping score at home, that's three par threes on that side, and it changes (if not screws up?) arguably the best hole on the golf course, the par 5 17th, which has a split fairway with two centerline bunkers, and a two-tier green with a three or four foot drop running from front to back on the very large green.

While I know that there are courses here and there with three par 3's on a side (the front side at Tobacco Road comes to mind, for one), the only prominent course I can think or find in a search is Royal Lytham and St. Anne's, and that's sort of a different category from this anyway.   So my question is, are there other highly regarded courses that begin with a par 3?

No need to mention places that aren't prominent, and no need to tell me about the problems created for tee times and pacing by starting a course with a par 3.  I'm just wondering if there even ARE any well-known, highly regarded courses that begin this way.

[Keith Phillips]

The Berkshire (Blue) starts with a terrific 200-yard par 3.

[David_Tepper]

Royal Lytham & St. Annes has hosted British Opens, Amateurs, Walker Cups, etc. and starts with a par-3. 

https://www.royallytham.org/golf/course-tour/hole-1/

[A.G._Crockett]

Royal Lytham & St. Annes has hosted British Opens, Amateurs, Walker Cups, etc. and starts with a par-3. 

https://www.royallytham.org/golf/course-tour/hole-1/

Thanks; I mentioned that one as the only one I knew of.

[A.G._Crockett]

The Berkshire (Blue) starts with a terrific 200-yard par 3.

Thank you!

[David_Tepper]

A.G. -
Indeed you did. My apologies!
Here are a few to consider from kingdom.com:
La Moye, Jersey, Channel Islands
 Par-3, 167 yards
 Jersey, the biggest of the Channel Islands off the south coast of England, has two outstanding golf courses, one of which, La Moye in the southwest, starts with that rarity—a par-3. Designed by James Braid around 1930 and refined by another [British] Open champion, Henry Cotton, some three decades later, La Moye is mainly a links layout that is defined by large sand hills, pot bunkers, gorse bushes and punishing rough, not to mention a stiff and seemingly omnipresent wind. Right from the very first tee shot, precision, in terms of both direction and club selection, is essential. The 1st here may not be long, but its small, exposed plateau green is surprisingly elusive and surrounded at the front and sides by a string of four bunkers and over the back by impenetrable gorse bushes.
 lamoyegolfclub.co.uk
Brooklake Country Club, Florham Park, New Jersey
 Par-3, 190 yards
 Having spread our search for respectable opening par-3s both far and wide, we came across this delightful hole in front of the clubhouse at Brooklake, a prominent country club at Florham Park in Morris County, New Jersey. The course, designed by Herbert Strong in 1921 and revised two decades later, stretches beyond 7,000 yards from the back tees but is mainly flat and friendly. Its 1st hole, though, is not for the faint-hearted, and many a member and guest has suffered an attack of the jitters when confronted by the 100-yard watery grave that spreads from the tee to just short of the putting surface. With four sand traps strung out like pearls across the front of the green, the emphasis is on a cleanly-struck tee shot that fully flies the hole’s scorecard distance.
 brooklakecc.com
Southport & Ainsdale, Lancashire, England
 Par-3, 204 yards
 Another James Braid course and a near neighbor of Royal Birkdale where Arnold Palmer won the first of his two [British] Open crowns in 1961, Southport & Ainsdale is embedded amidst several magnificent sand hills and dunes. This links layout, where accuracy is as important as distance, twice played host to the Ryder Cup in the 1930s. Opening par-3s can be a recipe for slow play, but S&A members are convinced the slight initial delay this hole causes is justified by a generally smooth flow over the rest of the round. With a tee in front of the clubhouse and a small green protected by a semi-circle of nine bunkers, it can play anything from a mid-iron to a driver. The ball must be fired into the heart of the green as anything short will inevitably find sand.
 sandagolfclub.co.uk


DT

 

[Luke Sutton]

I’ve pondered whether or not it would be a good idea to flip the 9s at RCD and/or Eastward Ho because of how good the front 9’s are at both places. The downside is starting with a 3.

[Brian Finn]

I was researching courses around Southport / Liverpool the other day, and came across this thread, which you may find useful.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67667.msg1617875.html#msg1617875

[Ben Hollerbach]

When the PGA tour played at Westchester for 40 years wasn't the opening hole a par 3?

[Ira Fishman]

A.G.


I have played Finley only once but agree that 17 is an excellent hole. I think 15-18 is a strong closing stretch so I understand why you are not pleased. Come to think of it, the current number One is a good opening hole.


Ira

[Will Lozier]

The Addington starts with a one-shotter.


https://addingtongolf.com/golf/hole-by-hole-flyovers/

It really gets going at #2!

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes has four par-3's on one nine, and it turned out okay -- maybe not good enough for you, though?


Seriously, the reason to be opposed to the project should be more grounded in the concern that two new holes will not fit into the existing course.  I have seen several clubs take out two holes near the clubhouse to expand their practice ranges, often with bad results.  Rochester Golf & CC in Minnesota was one such club.  They wound up abandoning those new holes before they ever really used them much.

[Brad Tufts]

I've only played Finley once, in Nov or Dec 2004, but it seems like moving these holes around and creating new ones will weaken a decent course.  It could end up fine though.  I doubt starting on a par three will be a killer.


I assume an upgraded practice facility that will help the teams is more important from the University's perspective though.

[Phil Burr]

Pacific Grove starts with not one but two consecutive par-3s.  In fact, par for its opening six holes is a perhaps unprecedented 3-3-4-4-5-5.


There are probably numerous other courses in GBI that open with par 3s, but that would be natural given their willingness to build sub par-70 courses whereas, with few exceptions, a minimum par of 70 seems to be a mythical U.S. threshold for a course gain conventional legitimacy.  The par 70 standard is not something I believe in as it invalidates numerous great courses such as Wannamoisett, but it seems to be an important GCA number, as is 6,000 yards minimum length lest a course be considered “executive” length.


It is not my intention to ignite an avalanche of submissions of courses that defy the par 70/6,000 yard standards as that has been done for years in this forum.  Just pointing out that such biases are real.

[Phil Burr]

Good call by Ben Hollerbach re Westchester CC’s setup for PGA tour play.  Pleasant Valley CC (Sutton MA) used to start with a par-3 for tournament play that was the third hole as played by members.

[A.G._Crockett]

I was researching courses around Southport / Liverpool the other day, and came across this thread, which you may find useful.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67667.msg1617875.html#msg1617875

Thank you!

[A.G._Crockett]

Pacific Dunes has four par-3's on one nine, and it turned out okay -- maybe not good enough for you, though?


Seriously, the reason to be opposed to the project should be more grounded in the concern that two new holes will not fit into the existing course.  I have seen several clubs take out two holes near the clubhouse to expand their practice ranges, often with bad results.  Rochester Golf & CC in Minnesota was one such club.  They wound up abandoning those new holes before they ever really used them much.

Tom,
I think I did a poor job in the part of my OP where I talked about sides with three par 3's.  I do NOT object to that in the least.  I was a member at an NLE Willard Byrd course that had 5 par threes, and I dearly love the front side at Tobacco Road.  It isn't well known, but there is a Fazio in Wake Forest, NC, named Hasentree that has that as well.


I think the difference here, of course, is that the holes aren't being built because the piece of land calls for them or anything like that; the new layout will shoehorn in two extra holes to get 9 where there are now 7.  Likewise, I don't object at all to a course that is less than a par 72; that same NLE I belonged to was a par 70, and I dearly loved the place.  Finley will become a par 71 for all the wrong reasons.  Similarly, the ONLY reason that the nines will be flipped and the first hole will be a par three is because that puts the 18th green right beside a new building that will have a restaurant on the lower floor and the new team center above it.

As several have mentioned, all of this is being driven by the Athletic Department and the golf teams, and I get that.  I just hate to see a good golf course become a lesser one, and there is a good chance that will be the case at Finley.

I perhaps also should have mentioned that the first stage of the process will involve converting the current bent grass greens to one or the other of the bermudas, as well as reworking the bunkers, which are sort of a disaster that I won't even try to describe here.  That much, at least, will be an improvement; the rest is a VERY open question.

[Rob Hallford]

*

[Rob Hallford]

First time I've posted in a while.  Clearly I've done something wrong.  Let me try again...

Interesting--first I've heard of this (I'm a local).  I've often said that there's nothing wrong with 10 that can't be fixed with a chainsaw and some dynamite.  While I believe any renovation that gets rid of #10 is a step in the right direction, the other changes sound like a turn for the worse on balance.  Losing 11 and 13 is too bad--really like those holes.  And am I reading right that they'll cram 2 more holes into the same land that 12-18 sit on now?  Boo. 

While I get having more practice area to attract players, doesn't shortening the course offset some of that recruiting benefit?  Those kids probably overpower the course now as it is.  I can't imagine knocking ~900 yards off of it (losing 10 and 11) and making that up without adding more land. 


Are they planning to switch the greens to Bermudagrass during the process?  Thanks for posting!

[A.G._Crockett]

First time I've posted in a while.  Clearly I've done something wrong.  Let me try again...

Interesting--first I've heard of this (I'm a local).  I've often said that there's nothing wrong with 10 that can't be fixed with a chainsaw and some dynamite.  While I believe any renovation that gets rid of #10 is a step in the right direction, the other changes sound like a turn for the worse on balance.  Losing 11 and 13 is too bad--really like those holes.  And am I reading right that they'll cram 2 more holes into the same land that 12-18 sit on now?  Boo. 

While I get having more practice area to attract players, doesn't shortening the course offset some of that recruiting benefit?  Those kids probably overpower the course now as it is.  I can't imagine knocking ~900 yards off of it (losing 10 and 11) and making that up without adding more land. 


Are they planning to switch the greens to Bermudagrass during the process?  Thanks for posting!

1. 13 doesn't go away; it becomes two holes, which will be 2 and 3.  I misspoke in the original post; 14 is the hole back there that goes away, to be "replaced" by a short four with the tee off to the left of current 13 green, and the green up beyond current 14 greens where there are trees now.

2. Yes, there will be two new holes (the short four mentioned above, which will be #4, and a new par three behind current 15 green, running uphill and using part of the current 17th green. (17 green will be moved over to the left as you face it from the fairway of where it currently sits.) With currrent 13 being made into two holes, and 10, 11, and 14 disappearing, you're back to 18 holes, par 71.

3. I don't think ANYBODY will really miss 10.  The irony of that is that it is "sorta kinda" the only hole on the current course that is similar to the hole that was on that ground on the original George Cobb course.  It was 7 on the Cobb course, and it was a very demanding short 4; the creek that ran in front of the green has now been piped, but the green is where the old green was.  The golfers that will miss 10 the least are the kids on the team; they just hate that hole!

4. We are all sort of wondering the same thing about the course changes and recruiting, but DLIII and the Athletic Department seem set on this being the way forward.  FWIW, the current AD, Bubba Cunningham, played college golf at Notre Dame and is a member at Old Chatham, where he plays to a 6 or so index, so he certainly should know college golf.  I don't think the Director of Golf and the Head Professional have ANY input into this, btw.


5. Yes, the conversion to bermuda greens will take place next summer in the first phase of a two-year project, along with bunker renovation.

[Ira Fishman]

Well, at least fixing the bunkers is some consolation. They are the reason my one play did not become more plays even though we live just across 54. 10 is not a good hole, but 11 is as you know.


Ira

[A.G._Crockett]

Well, at least fixing the bunkers is some consolation. They are the reason my one play did not become more plays even though we live just across 54. 10 is not a good hole, but 11 is as you know.


Ira

Ira,

Within the group of guys that I play with, we talk about those bunkers all the time.  They are a paradox; quite possibly as well-placed as any set of bunkers on any course I've ever played.  But brutally penal, and with tongues that make outcomes completely random.  They are not only a problem for golfers, but also a true maintenance nightmare; the combination of extremely steep faces and very small unsloped areas in the bottom make hand-raking by the maintenance crew manadatory; few allow a Sand Pro to be used.

Add to that the sad fact that the Athletic Department won't allow overtime, which means no syringing of the bent grass, which, in turn, means that all the watering has to be done overhead by the sprinkler system.  Consequently, the greenside bunkers are pretty much always wet sand.  And they are showing their age now, too, with liners sticking up, especially on the faces.

It isn't bad advice anywhere, but at Finley if you can play 18 holes without ever visiting a bunker, you have a great shot at a good round.  There is one par four or five on the course without a fairway bunker (#4), and most are at least a full shot penalty.  And in the greenside bunkers, if you have a stance and a full swing, you've been truly fortunate.  Seeing those bunkers go away will be a happy moment for all, not unlike the 140 or so Fazio bunkers that were removed from Pinehurst #4. 


I write all of that knowing that some here will think it's just another whine by an entitled golfer; it isn't. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I saw what DL did at Sea Pines with the Atlantic Highlznds course and I really liked it. I have also heard that he did a nice job at Sea Island. I like Finley and dare I say, more than Duke but I like Lonnie Poole at NC State the most of the 3. Exactly why do they think this will make the course better or is it just to benefit the golf team?

[A.G._Crockett]

I saw what DL did at Sea Pines with the Atlantic Highlznds course and I really liked it. I have also heard that he did a nice job at Sea Island. I like Finley and dare I say, more than Duke but I like Lonnie Poole at NC State the most of the 3. Exactly why do they think this will make the course better or is it just to benefit the golf team?

Jerry, i agree with you about Atlantic Dunes; in fact, I like all the Love courses that I’ve played. Kinderlou Forest is terrific though largely unknown, and IMO the Love course at Barefoot is easily the best of the four courses there.




This work at Finley, as noted, isn’t about fixing the golf course, though; it’s strictly so that a new team center and practice area can be added.  And I get that; I don’t like it, but I understand.  It’ll be unique, I think; my university will be spending $18 million on a golf course to make it smaller.

[Will Spivey]

I saw what DL did at Sea Pines with the Atlantic Highlznds course and I really liked it. I have also heard that he did a nice job at Sea Island. I like Finley and dare I say, more than Duke but I like Lonnie Poole at NC State the most of the 3. Exactly why do they think this will make the course better or is it just to benefit the golf team?

Jerry, I would agree with you that Finley is better than Duke. But I may have to unfriend you over your Lonnie Poole comments     That has to be the worst college course I've ever played. It's even worse than the new Nicklaus FSU course, and that's saying something.