The "Affordable" $150 green fee

[Bill Gayne]

I'm guessing Audobon park in New Orleans wasn't considered being an 18 hole par 61 course. I think it's one of the best examples of golf integrated into an urban multi-use park. Most recently visited in May and we paid $40 greens fee.

[Craig Sweet]

I am hearing rumblings of one pass to play multiple courses...much like the Epic Pass for skiers.  Bully Pulpit, Hawktree, and the Links of ND offer such a pass (for $150).  I am sure there are others...

[Tom_Doak]

I am hearing rumblings of one pass to play multiple courses...much like the Epic Pass for skiers.  Bully Pulpit, Hawktree, and the Links of ND offer such a pass (for $150).  I am sure there are others...

I did the three-course ND pass a few years back.  Had the highest expectations for the Links of N.D., and it was actually the course I enjoyed least of the three, go figure!  It's great value for golf but you'll spend a bit on gasoline to cover the three of them!

[Daryl David]

I am hearing rumblings of one pass to play multiple courses...much like the Epic Pass for skiers.  Bully Pulpit, Hawktree, and the Links of ND offer such a pass (for $150).  I am sure there are others...

I did the three-course ND pass a few years back.  Had the highest expectations for the Links of N.D., and it was actually the course I enjoyed least of the three, go figure!  It's great value for golf but you'll spend a bit on gasoline to cover the three of them!

I did it last summer. That is one big triangle of driving, but a great value. Agree with Tom. The links was disappointing.  Hawktree a pleasant surprise. I stretched the triangle into a square by including the Country Club of Minot (Engh). Overall, a quite interesting golf road trip with lots of straightaways!

[Mark Kiely]

As for military courses, the only one I have on my list to see is Eglin AFB, and from looking at their web site I am not sure outsiders are welcome . . . though maybe a letter would work?  I have heard very little about any of the others.

Tom: The course in Mike's avatar is worth seeing in my humble opinion -- Marine Memorial on Camp Pendleton in Oceanside, CA. Incredible setting in a beautiful, often windy canyon, good greens, nice elevation changes. I adore it.

[Nick Schreiber]

Hey all, first time poster here. I'm developing Old Barnwell, which was mentioned in the forum last week, and I'm really fascinated by this topic.

In the early iterations of my vision for what is now Old Barnwell, years ago and long before I found the land and hired Brian and Blake, I wanted to create an exceptional golf experience at an affordable price. However, I'm providing nearly all the funding for Old Barnwell, and it became clear that without the benefit of initiation fees and membership dues, the already substantial risk I'd be taking on would be even larger. I also did not want to rely on residential real estate to mitigate that risk - I'm not in that business and don't want to be. (Though, to be fair, I'm not in the golf business either, but I did want to be in its orbit!).

Then I found and purchased some land, and though it met nearly all my criteria (sandy, great land movement, ample acreage, etc.), it brought the challenge of building an exceptional public golf venue into even greater relief. This land, if anywhere near a larger city that could supply a reliable stable of weekly customers, would have cost a fortune. It's actual location near Aiken, SC is hardly close enough to a large enough population that could support a newly built "value" course. Furthermore, if public, Old Barnwell would likely compete with and hurt the wonderful Aiken GC, itself an exceptional value and on the aforementioned Top 100 list. All this to say that I never fully appreciated the difficulty in creating a new, affordable golf course, nor did I understand the massive amount of capital (and investment patience) required to develop, open and operate such a course for many years until it could actually become profitable. To Tom's point, such an endeavor would absolutely require some degree of philanthropy (or financial folly!).

To be clear, I'm nowhere near being an expert on this subject, nor would I ever definitively declare that a newly built value course cannot successfully be developed at this time. I'm sure there are much smarter individuals out there who could make it work in some manner. I do believe, however, that private clubs can play a positive role in this debate. They can still be an asset to their communities and I believe they can make public play available to folks in such a way that the club's members won't jump ship or decry the lack of "exclusivity." Or anyway, I sure hope that's the case!


Nick

[Tim Martin]

Nick-That’s a terrific first post and I’ll be rooting for Old Barnwell. The idea of offering some times for non-members will be popular as most are fans of the model that Palmetto has allowing non-member play during Masters week. To have Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm added to the local lineup is a winner for the area as well as golfers that can get there.

[jeffwarne]

Nick-That’s a terrific first post and I’ll be rooting for Old Barnwell. The idea of offering some times for non-members will be popular as most are fans of the model that Palmetto has allowing non-member play during Masters week. To have Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm added to the local lineup is a winner for the area as well as golfers that can get there.

+1
Welcome Nick!
great first post

[MCirba]

Welcome, Nick.   Thank you for being willing to share in the discussion with your own personal experiences to date.

[Jeff Segol]

In terms of municipal golf, the first question you have to ask the powers that be in relation to any course is this one: "Is this course an investment, or an amenity?" In my observation, having been involved in a municipal course renovation, too many City Councils think of a golf course as a way to make money to subsidize other parts of the recreation program. If they can raise rates to do that, they will. Right now, an 8 a.m. walking tee time at Baylands Golf Links is $103 for a Palo Alto resident, and $117 for someone from elsewhere in the Bay Area, and $130 for an out-of-towner. One reason for that is that our friends at the National Golf Foundation told the Council they could generate a higher green fee and more revenue from the course by making it nicer, which Forrest Richardson did. The other reason, I suspect, is that the City is trying to make up for all the revenue they lost when the Council insisted that Forrest's design carve out 10 acres for theoretical future soccer fields, which the City has no money to build. That eliminated Forrest's plan to do the renovation in nine-hole chunks, and resulted in two years of a bogus course with temporary greens, where the City lost its shirt.


Fair disclosure, a morning tee time on a weekend is not available now until the weekend after next. What's available this coming weekend are times at noon or later, which means the course is selling out a substantial portion of the tee sheet at the current rates. But again, if the course is an amenity for at least Palo Alto residents, do you really want to price it at a point where some of them may not be affordable to play (those who have lived in their houses since the early 80s, most likely).


Also, it's all relative. I've played rounds at Baylands recently with guys from San Francisco, who find the Baylands rate a bargain compared to what the City is charging even residents to play at Harding.


Essentially, what Palo Alto is charging is sending people to other courses that are not as nice, but have green fees in the $60 range to walk. I'm playing more at Santa Teresa as a result, which doesn't have Forrest's design, but is in good condition, and I'm putting more time in at the range, and less time on the course.

[Michael Goldstein]

Welcome Nick and all the best for Old Bramwell.

Re affordability, just thought I'd share my new local club's annual membership fee is USD$133.50. 

[Rob Marshall]

Welcome Nick and all the best for Old Bramwell.

Re affordability, just thought I'd share my new local club's annual membership fee is USD$133.50. 

I grew up at a Muni. $7 annual for the pass and 50 cents a round.

[Tom_Doak]

Welcome Nick and all the best for Old Bramwell.

Re affordability, just thought I'd share my new local club's annual membership fee is USD$133.50. 

Michael:


Amazing things can be done when a course decides it can get along without fairway irrigation.  It's the biggest expense in construction, and it raises expectations, all of which have to be met with more money.  And, of course, no one in America would THINK of building a golf course without fairway irrigation in this day and age, even if they can't afford it.

[jeffwarne]

Welcome Nick and all the best for Old Bramwell.

Re affordability, just thought I'd share my new local club's annual membership fee is USD$133.50. 

Michael:


Amazing things can be done when a course decides it can get along without fairway irrigation.  It's the biggest expense in construction, and it raises expectations, all of which have to be met with more money.  And, of course, no one in America would THINK of building a golf course without fairway irrigation in this day and age, even if they can't afford it.

Tom, Palmetto did this for years until 1988.
How practical is it with bermuda and how much more is spent on lost grass at the end of each year?(if any).
and how do you grow it in?


on a related topic, I played Maidstone today.
It is perhaps the best conditioned course I have ever played in the US.(and I am NOT a conditions freak)
i.e. the fairways were firm, tawny and fast (But not cut stupid short), and they clearly are using their new irrigation sparingly.
Noteably 2 and 16 fairways, always soft and muddish, have had drainage ditches added in the rough to help dry them out.(one of them induced one of the better shostI've ever hit )
Both fairways were excellent and on par with the rest of the course.
Kudos to them.
Very UK ish, in a very hot, humid year.
I has moved significantly up my list of favorites, and it was already up there.

[Tom_Doak]

Welcome Nick and all the best for Old Bramwell.

Re affordability, just thought I'd share my new local club's annual membership fee is USD$133.50. 

Michael:


Amazing things can be done when a course decides it can get along without fairway irrigation.  It's the biggest expense in construction, and it raises expectations, all of which have to be met with more money.  And, of course, no one in America would THINK of building a golf course without fairway irrigation in this day and age, even if they can't afford it.

Tom, Palmetto did this for years until 1988.
How practical is it with bermuda and how much more is spent on lost grass at the end of each year?(if any).
and how do you grow it in?


on a related topic, I played Maidstone today.
It is perhaps the best conditioned course I have ever played in the US.
i.e. the fairways were firm, brownish and fast (But not stupid short), and they clearly are using their new irrigation sparingly.
Kudo to them.
Very UK ish, in a very hot, humid year.
I has moved significantly up my list of favorites, and it was already up there.

Jeff:


This topic deserves its own thread, but I don't have time this week.  Somebody remind me later!


We don't have irrigation in all of the fairways at St. Patrick's . . . because they said they never irrigate the fairways on the other two courses, we decided there were a couple of fairways where we would take the chance of not installing irrigation.  It was a roll of the dice on grow-in, but we managed to get away with it.


That's the west coast of Ireland, though, and they get plenty of rain.  The place that's really made me think about it is Dornick Hills.  While installing their new system this summer, they have been without water since April . . . and I had no idea when I made my visit this summer, until a few days after I had been there.  They've had just enough rain to green up the common bermuda after a droughty spring, and the grass looked absolutely normal to me.  The fact they hadn't been cutting the fairways tight while construction was underway probably also contributed to how good they looked.


Of course, nobody would like the looks of it when it got real droughty, and the golf carts would do more damage, so we can't have such conditions in America.


I do remember Mr. Dye telling me that his mentor Bill Diddel refused to put in fairway irrigation as a matter of principle, and at one point Pete told Mr. Diddel he was thinking of taking the same stance.  "Don't do that, you'll starve," replied Mr. Diddel.  "I'm old and I can get away with it, but you can't."

[Thomas Dai]

I've heard media reports about severe drought conditions in parts of the US and Canada this year.
How have the courses in these areas that haven't been receiving their usual amount of water been playing?
Have restrictions been placed on watering golf courses in these areas?
atb

[Kalen Braley]

I've heard media reports about severe drought conditions in parts of the US and Canada this year.
How have the courses in these areas that haven't been receiving their usual amount of water been playing?
Have restrictions been placed on watering golf courses in these areas?
atb

I live in such a place Thomas, the local courses and parks/playgrounds here in Northern Utah are still plenty green, despite exceptional drought.  Even the purely decorative grass in commercial areas, around churches, and road medians are lush and green.

Given the lack of any effort to seriously address the problem at the local and state levels, i'm not surprised in the least. Seems they'll have to wait for people's taps go dry before it will get any real attention.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure of exact year, but Golf Digest split their public Best New rankings into affordable and upscale around 1995 or so, with $50 being the split.  According to the CPI calculator, that is $90 and change now.  So, the $150 represents a big jump in the base line for upscale vs. affordable.


I agree that affordability is dependent on region and city.  In that same 1990's time frame, DFW courses that charged $45 and under had all the business they could handle. That $45 would now be $80 in today's dollars.


I recently surveyed some public courses in the most affluent part of town, and $55 is the low end of what they charge, with $70-75 being closer to norm, and each of those courses is full (by today's standards, no more 60K courses around here, the tops is barely 50,000 rounds))  In that area of town, the $55 course actually gets the least amount of rounds, because seniors and other truly value conscious golfers can afford the $70+ and prefer to pay a bit more for better courses.


So, it appears DFW is at least in line with inflation and perhaps a bit less, due to greater competition for play.


I always advise clients that the most popular courses will be those that look like $100 courses, but for which you can charge substantially less, i.e., $75-80.  It is definitely getting harder to build new, with new builds at least $9 Mil now, and sometimes higher.


The $3 Mil or so we built courses for in the 1990's has gone up to $9 million, when by inflation alone, the golf course cost should only be about $5.7M, which would be hard to build for right now.  And that is just golf construction costs. I recall clubhouses were at about $300 per SF back then, and over $1000 SF now.

[Gib_Papazian]

Taking a cue from my beloved Del Rio CC (Brawley, CA - not Modesto), why don't all these water-strapped desert courses north of the Salton Sea let their bermuda fairways go dormant in the winter?


That is the closest thing I've ever played to Scottish (or Bandon) fairways. Obviously, this cannot be done in every geographic area in America, but we gotta do something desperate before irrigation water becomes (read: even more) completely affordable.


You want a plush, emerald green carpet at Bushwood? Prepare for your dues to skyrocket - and if the water budget doubles at the local CCFAD, $150.00 is going to look dirt cheap.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the current #9 on our GD Top 100 a golf course with no fairway irrigation? 


With respect to the imbecilic morons who run California, we are so far behind the curve in terms of building dams - or even sane water management policy - it will take 10 years to catch up at best.


So, we had better start to make some drastic changes - and learn to love brown - or golf out here is going to be on life support in short order.


One enormous problem I see are courses whose architectural design depends on softish greens - like the usual Nicklaus mess, with elevated greens and zero opportunity to play the ground game. Those courses - if they don't want to be sold to housing developers - may present a lucrative niche for architects adept at converting green complexes to encourage run-ups.


I don't want to (further) swell Tom's head here, but much of the fascination with his designs is derived from the importance of contemplating different options on approach shots.


Now that I think about it, the best thing that could happen to NGLA is to dry it out even further, put the 8th and 12th tees back where they belong and let the fun begin.


Water and money are tied together . . . . . and it is only going to get worse.


   

[Tom_Doak]

Now that I think about it, the best thing that could happen to NGLA is to dry it out even further, put the 8th and 12th tees back where they belong and let the fun begin.

Water and money are tied together . . . . . and it is only going to get worse.
   

NGLA didn't have [automatic] fairway irrigation until the mid-70s, IIRC.  I assume they had quick couplers they could use in a real drought.

[Tom_Doak]

The $3 Mil or so we built courses for in the 1990's has gone up to $9 million, when by inflation alone, the golf course cost should only be about $5.7M, which would be hard to build for right now.  And that is just golf construction costs. I recall clubhouses were at about $300 per SF back then, and over $1000 SF now.

$9 million?  Jesus, I should just do turn-key designs, I would make $2m or $3m on every job.  Of course, you wouldn't get wall to wall cart paths that way 

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom
And we haven't even talked about the actual cost of the land, which one would assume isn't zero, even though you often work for clients that own their land.  But it needs to be factored into the math, correct?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom
And we haven't even talked about the actual cost of the land, which one would assume isn't zero, even though you often work for clients that own their land.  But it needs to be factored into the math, correct?

Yes and no, it depends on how you want to look at it.  As High Pointe proved  , the land still retains its intrinsic value as land even if the golf course fails and you sell it off later.  Unless you go through a bankruptcy, and the lender takes your land in the settlement.

[Michael Goldstein]

Tom, that is very interesting re not putting fairway irrigation into a couple of holes at St Patricks.
Where I have moved to in NZ is one of the driest places in the country and there actually is basic fairway irrigation (not sure what will happen when it needs to be replaced as the membership certainly isn't covering deferred maintenance). One of the reasons the costs are so low is because it is 9 holes and the only wages spent are around 20 hours a week towards course maintenance. 


Jeff, good to hear that Maidstone is bouncy and firm. I caddied there nearly 10 years ago and it didn't as it could have, was miles away from a UK links both on and off the course.

[Ian_L]

Tom,

Going back to your original topic, I think the type of course (private, public, resort), is an important consideration for whether a course is affordable.

Locally, I choose not to pay $150 to play my weekend rounds at the Stanford Golf Course. I think it's the best course available to me within a 30 minute drive, but it's just too expensive to justify for 2-3 rounds per month. I usually end up playing there 1-2 times per year on a special occasion, and I play my regular golf on courses with green fees between $65-$90. If I pay an average of $75 for my ~30 local rounds per year, that's $2,250 in savings.

As for resort golf, outside of an annual Bandon Dunes trip, I probably only play 3 "destination" courses annually. For those, I could pay an extra $150 per round (say $250 instead of $100 to hit the best course in the area), and the total annual hit to me would be just $450 (a lot of money, of course, but less consequential than my choice of local golf course). As such, I am much less price-sensitive at resort/destination courses. There is also the "splurge factor," where I have often already made a significant investment into a trip, and a difference of $100-200 seems inconsequential when I'm thousands of miles from home.

I'd imagine that private golf courses are generally the least "affordable" if they don't allow outside play. They certainly are here in the SF Bay Area based on the few data points I have.

For a successful architect, it seems there are few good opportunities to build a course locals would find affordable. Some have chosen to invest time in such a project (like CommonGround), but I am guessing this is not a feasible business model for an architect to adopt broadly as a business strategy. So if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about how to make a great course that is affordable for the locals - it doesn't really work economically.

Given the above, if a focus of yours is affordability, rather than focus on green fee I would suggest building as many publicly accessible courses as possible in as many geographic locations as you can. By doing this, many golfers globally will have an option to visit at least one of your courses with minimal travel costs (and these are the majority of the costs for vacation golf, not the green fee). And those who are willing and able to travel more broadly can seek out your courses across the globe. Using myself as an example, when I was a recent college graduate I was able to make it up to Bandon Dunes to play some of my first links golf. This was possible because it was within driving distance of San Francisco, and also because of the great winter rates (another item worth mentioning when discussing affordability).

Based on your portfolio and recent projects, it seems you're doing a pretty good job of taking my suggestion to heart!

Ian