Member Whining about Bunker Sand

[Jaeger Kovich]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

I've seen the bottoms stay wet, but the faces seem to be too dry, especially up high close to the lips.


I know of three clubs in my area that have recently renovated bunkers, all with different systems, all have bunker faces that almost turn to powder during a dry week, two are hand watering bunker faces when labor permits during a dry week to keep the faces damp and firm... again, seems to be worse high up on the face close to the lips.

A wet bottom and dry face… sounds like my newborn! 


What a bummer.

[Jason Topp]

Not an answer about what to say--but, as for me, my pet gripe about sand is where there isn't enough of it.  Hitting from too thin sand and having the ball sail over the green is one of the most frustrating feelings in golf.

Jim,


If you come to play the Melbourne sandbelt you'll be in a world of pain unless you grind some bounce of the sand iron, learn to get a little steeper coming into the ball - and hit just behind it. 2 inches behind when the sand is thin is way to much space between the club and the ball.

Helps to have sandbelt soit.  Not an option on courses with Billy Bunkers.  Bunkers with too little sand essentially have cement under them.  Courses that go that route need to either plan on extra maintenance cost or take out some bunkers. 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

I've seen the bottoms stay wet, but the faces seem to be too dry, especially up high close to the lips.


I know of three clubs in my area that have recently renovated bunkers, all with different systems, all have bunker faces that almost turn to powder during a dry week, two are hand watering bunker faces when labor permits during a dry week to keep the faces damp and firm... again, seems to be worse high up on the face close to the lips.

The porous liners (like Blinder, Better Billy, Cap Con) all create a perched water table just like a USGA spec green. In doing so it technically can help in controlling how wet or dry the sand plays. The issue runs into sand depth - which controls the moisture level - so maintaining it perfectly would need a full time crew as there's a fine line between too wet and too dry.


Most bunker specs look for ~4-5" of sand, however in most cases this is not enough to provide the hydraulic head for the water to overcome the perched water table created with using a liner. The liner particle sizes are consistent for each liner but the sand particles will vary on which sand was used so each sand will behave differently when the interact with the different liners ie in some cases 4" is enough. In others 6" isn't enough and you get firm bunkers or algae forming on the surface. If the sand is too deep then the water will flow through and you'll get fired eggs as the surface will be dry. This will change too as the sand compacts ie it may perform well when it's first put in but as it settles, it drops maybe an inch and now it no longer has the head to drain. The same principle is happening on the slopes as gravity is moving the water to the bunker floor creating the hydraulic head to drain the water - hence the drier faces.

[archie_struthers]

 


Inevitably the bunkers at all but the best of the best courses are going to have some rough days. Another thread here asks the obvious question as to asset allocation in "greens vs Bunkers ".


For many clubs I might recommend a day early in the week twice monthly in season where you run a machine and rip up the green side bunkers a bit. Then float them out with a sand pro. For a couple of days they might be a little too fluffy for my taste but they should be pretty good for the weekend play.


If you have the people on staff to do it I would do it weekly in season!

[Jeff Schley]

We probably could change this title to "Member Whining about ___________!"  It will never stop as 80 percent of the whines come from 20 percent of the members. Actually probably 90 percent from 10 percent perhaps.

[Brian Marion]

I've found when you hear complaints about bunker sand in new bunkers it's typically soft sand caused by the bunker liner, and not the fault of the bunker sand itself.


Most of these new bunker liners dry the sand out too much causing plugged balls.

Really? Most of the bunkers I’ve seen w the sprayed epoxy or porous concrete end up w an algae problem and are very wet v very dry.

Agreed. They can compact down as well and become very firm.

[Rob Marshall]

To throw in a little winkle to this thread. Should the fairway bunkers and the green side bunkers be maintained the  same? I noticed when the players walked into the fairway bunkers at Oakmont you could barely see footprints. The fairway bunkers appeared to be firmer than the green side bunkers. Is that by design?


Also, to the Supers here. What type of rake do you use to maintain the bunkers? We’ve tried different rakes. Currently using leaf rakes and they are leaving some pretty big grooves.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

To throw in a little winkle to this thread. Should the fairway bunkers and the green side bunkers be maintained the  same? I noticed when the players walked into the fairway bunkers at Oakmont you could barely see footprints. The fairway bunkers appeared to be firmer than the green side bunkers. Is that by design?


Also, to the Supers here. What type of rake do you use to maintain the bunkers? We’ve tried different rakes. Currently using leaf rakes and they are leaving some pretty big grooves.

Most people would say they'd prefer a firmer fairway bunker as they're hitting a longer shout out of it and would rather get under the ball in a greenside to pop it out. At the end of the day its a hazard, so should it really be maintained to that level? It all comes down to money and how much labor can be put into them. A club with the resources of an Oakmont can easily vary how the bunkers play if they wish but expecting a course in the real world to be able to, is unrealistic.


I use the plastic ParAide rakes as I like the fluffy look but due to labor shortages we mostly machine rake now, which uses leaf rakes. The type of rake all depends on what the end goal is for how they play, but I wouldn't normally expect a leaf rake to leave big grooves.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks Alan, Our Super doesn't want to use the machine rake. I can't remember why but it made sense when he told me.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Thanks Alan, Our Super doesn't want to use the machine rake. I can't remember why but it made sense when he told me.

I'm not a fan either, but with 5 acres of bunkers and not enough staff, its better than nothing!

[Jeff Shelman]

Judge,


Can't you just tell them not to hit it there?

[Sean_A]

To throw in a little winkle to this thread. Should the fairway bunkers and the green side bunkers be maintained the  same? I noticed when the players walked into the fairway bunkers at Oakmont you could barely see footprints. The fairway bunkers appeared to be firmer than the green side bunkers. Is that by design?


Also, to the Supers here. What type of rake do you use to maintain the bunkers? We’ve tried different rakes. Currently using leaf rakes and they are leaving some pretty big grooves.

Most people would say they'd prefer a firmer fairway bunker as they're hitting a longer shout out of it and would rather get under the ball in a greenside to pop it out. At the end of the day its a hazard, so should it really be maintained to that level? It all comes down to money and how much labor can be put into them. A club with the resources of an Oakmont can easily vary how the bunkers play if they wish but expecting a course in the real world to be able to, is unrealistic.


I use the plastic ParAide rakes as I like the fluffy look but due to labor shortages we mostly machine rake now, which uses leaf rakes. The type of rake all depends on what the end goal is for how they play, but I wouldn't normally expect a leaf rake to leave big grooves.

My gripe about thin sand in greenside bunkers is that my wedge is meant for heavy sand..big bounce, massive flange...very old school. I don't want to buy a new wedge or carry two wedges. But it seems as though most courses are opting for minimal sand when they redo the bunkers. 😢

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

From what I've heard in the UK (non-links courses) less sand might become more common as there's a supply/availability/£ issue.


In addition, if Clubs can acquire sand, surely it would be better to use the sand for top-dressing greens rather than using it for bunkers? Even more so as bunkers are meant to be hazards (not manicured sand gardens).


atb

[cary lichtenstein]

We probably could change this title to "Member Whining about ___________!"  It will never stop as 80 percent of the whines come from 20 percent of the members. Actually probably 90 percent from 10 percent perhaps.

Maybe the member should take a few lessons and become a better bunker player, after all, it's called a HAZARD.

[Terry Lavin]

Judge,


Can't you just tell them not to hit it there?

Very low compliance with such orders.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

From what I've heard in the UK (non-links courses) less sand might become more common as there's a supply/availability/£ issue.


In addition, if Clubs can acquire sand, surely it would be better to use the sand for top-dressing greens rather than using it for bunkers? Even more so as bunkers are meant to be hazards (not manicured sand gardens).


atb

A club typically uses different sand for each application, with rather different properties in terms of particle size, shape, source etc. As for topdressing, it is very rare that clubs will switch sands as there is a fear it will lead to layering and inconsistent soil wetting/water movement etc.