Bunker Face Angles

[Pete_Pittock]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

[Jon Sweet]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

[Kalen Braley]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

I think it'd be more amazing that a grounds person was actually around while playing at ANGC.  I can see it now, waiting to hit on the 1st hole cause the mower is still in the fairway, Or some dude jamming out with headphones while he's raking the bunker on 12 and you just sitting there waiting.  At Augusta? Cmon man, you can't be serious. 

[Jon Sweet]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

I think it'd be more amazing that a grounds person was actually around while playing at ANGC.  I can see it now, waiting to hit on the 1st hole cause the mower is still in the fairway, Or some dude jamming out with headphones while he's raking the bunker on 12 and you just sitting there waiting.  At Augusta? Cmon man, you can't be serious. 

Might have been the head guy, happened on 7 if I recall. Plugged in the face, guy said that never should have happened and apologized. Pretty amazing stuff.

[Joe Hancock]

It’s not so simple; Sand shape and size, moisture, compaction etc. all figures into the equation. It seems the latest craze is fancy raking and compaction to make every errant shot end up on the bottom of the bunker with a nice flat lie. I’m in the camp of doing less and letting the golfer take their lumps with whatever lie they draw if they hit it into the hazard.

[Rob Marshall]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

I think it'd be more amazing that a grounds person was actually around while playing at ANGC.  I can see it now, waiting to hit on the 1st hole cause the mower is still in the fairway, Or some dude jamming out with headphones while he's raking the bunker on 12 and you just sitting there waiting.  At Augusta? Cmon man, you can't be serious. 

Might have been the head guy, happened on 7 if I recall. Plugged in the face, guy said that never should have happened and apologized. Pretty amazing stuff.

Why should it never happen?

[Matt_Cohn]

Why should it never happen?

A ball plugged in a steep face pretty much guarantees you're going to totally mangle the bunker face trying to get to it, address it, and swing. We've all had the experience of sending 50 pounds of sand sliding down the face and leaving 6-inch-deep footprints trying to take a stance. It takes forever to rake, usually doesn't clean up well, and probably isn't great for the bunker face in general.


As far as at Augusta specifically, I would assume it's because they specifically maintain bunkers to avoid buried lies.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Pete,


My answer would be the same as Joe H's.  I think it has more to do with sand quality, specifically, roundish particles tend towards buried and fried egg lies more than a sand with rectangular particles.  There are also grades like "sub-rounded" that are halfway in between. 


The USGA has a "penetrometer" test with values that equate to firm through "tend to bury" to help choose sand.  However, in general, steeper slopes tend to lead to more plugged lies.


I bet many areas are similar to Texas - local sands are cheap, but rounded particles, and good angled sand must be trucked in from other areas at great expense, with the price differences up at $30 per ton for local, and $90-$120 for the angled sand, usually really white.  If your course has pluggy sand, it's probably a value decision.


BTW, all sands (and soils) have their own natural "angle of repose" i.e., the steepest angle sand will stand in a pile.  Even when using Better Billy Bunker, they suggest bunker slopes no greater than 80% of that angle of repose, and if your bunkers have no liners, it would probably be best to be even flatter.

[Jon Sweet]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

I think it'd be more amazing that a grounds person was actually around while playing at ANGC.  I can see it now, waiting to hit on the 1st hole cause the mower is still in the fairway, Or some dude jamming out with headphones while he's raking the bunker on 12 and you just sitting there waiting.  At Augusta? Cmon man, you can't be serious. 

Might have been the head guy, happened on 7 if I recall. Plugged in the face, guy said that never should have happened and apologized. Pretty amazing stuff.

Why should it never happen?

You’d have to ask him.

[Thomas Dai]

Seems somewhat of a ‘First World Issue’ in golfing terms?
Maybe bunkers should be filled with snow not sand? ‘Snowflake bunkers’ might be a suitable description given how the game and some player attitudes have morphed over the last few decades (sic).
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Seems somewhat of a ‘First World Issue’ in golfing terms?
Maybe bunkers should be filled with snow not sand? ‘Snowflake bunkers’ might be a suitable description given how the game and some player attitudes have morphed over the last few decades (sic).
Atb

Thomas,

I've actually done that a couple times here in Utah.  Played out of bunkers with snow in them, which I actually quite preferred over a fried egg.

P.S.  Perhaps we need bunkers with fine flour, so every lie is a bad one! 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Is there a slope angle range which is conducive to balls plugging in the faces of greenside bunkers? That architects should avoid using?

Two comments. The course I caddie at this happens often, quite frustrating. Always to me seems like there’s far too much sand in them but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.
Second one, I saw it happen once at Augusta. The maintenance/grounds person was there and apologized to the player. Pretty amazing.

As a greenkeeper, if I ever apologize to a golfer for a plugged lie in a bunker I give you full permission to shoot me in the head.

[Rob Marshall]

What player would expect you? Not me.

[Sean_A]

Much of the angst about bunker conditions could be easily solved if they were treated like water hazards and far fewer of damn things. I say fewer bunkers, more efficiently placed and gnarly difficult. If we can take a water like penalty drop...there should be zero complaints.

Ciao

[Buck Wolter]

I think there is a lot of poor bunker maintenance that gets way too much sand up in the faces of the bunker and not enough in the bottoms, my guess its caused by flying around in a sand pro and moving the sand up onto the faces. It really sucks when the bottoms of the bunkers are dirt and the faces have 6" of sand in them making the whole bunker basically unplayable (plugged in the faces and bare lies in the bottoms). I also think many courses have way too much sand in their bunkers overall which leads to fried eggs everywhere.

Royal Melbourne style bunkers look to be ideal with almost no sand in the faces which lets balls run down into the bottoms (I know not attainable everywhere) --my guess why the Augusta Super would apologize, he's shooting for that.

[Pete_Pittock]

A bit of the backstory.  In the past two years all of the bunkers on the course were re-worked and BetterBillyBunkers installed in those that remained. We were told that this would stop balls plugging on the up-slopes, or at least make them less likely. That didn't occur.
I do not hit a "high" ball, and it seems that my shots descend close to perpendicular to the slope, which would lead to a higher percentage of buried balls than a high ball player. Was it my cross to bear? 


If it not the slope, then sand depth, moisture, sand choice and sand compaction need to be addressed. Thanks for the technical feedback.

.

[Thomas Dai]

Much of the angst about bunker conditions could be easily solved if they were treated like water hazards and far fewer of damn things. I say fewer bunkers, more efficiently placed and gnarly difficult. If we can take a water like penalty drop...there should be zero complaints.
Ciao

+1
Spot on.
Well said Sean.
atb