Runoff areas that stop midway down the slope

[Jason Thurman]

At the Pfau Course a few weeks back I ran through 5 green and down a slope of slightly-longer-than-fairway zoysia turf that fed my ball an extra 7 yards down the hill, but it still settled on the slope leaving a pitch back to the slope from an uphill lie.


I played Traditions in Hebron, KY today. It featured plenty of runoff cuts of fairway-length turf that sent balls away from greens, but transitioning to rough before the downslope leveled out. Once again, the result is a pitch rather than a chip, but from an awkward uphill lie.


I think I like it. Give the tiger longer recoveries from imprecise lies while giving the duffer a little cushion under his ball. Where else do you see it? Do you like it?

[Sean_A]

Jason

Generally speaking fairways need be a bit higher cut and rough lower cut. If the surfaces are firm the ball will still roll plenty.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.


That’s certainly the way I like it on links land, widening out the green complex, making the whole area look more pleasing to the eye, and giving a putter option for higher handicappers whilst giving good players options / doubt. Even better if they go over the next high point so that the transition to rough is hidden to the approaching golfer’s eye.


You may be coming at it from a slightly different angle on US courses, Jason? But I can’t see what you describe being more than a half measure.

[Terry Lavin]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.

This seems like solid analysis. The overuse of runoffs is becoming all too tedious, IMHO.

[jeffwarne]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.

This seems like solid analysis. The overuse of runoffs is becoming all too tedious, IMHO.

this
jumped the shark a few years ago

[Sean_A]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.

This seems like solid analysis. The overuse of runoffs is becoming all too tedious, IMHO.

this
jumped the shark a few years ago

What is the better alternative to short grass feeding to lower areas?

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I’m envisaging what’s being described as a bit like a ‘collar’ of slightly higher grass part-way down a slope? Is this correct and won’t many shots settle up against the collar rather than roll further away from the green? Also, what are the maintenance implications of mowing such areas accurately especially on potentially slippery, dewy mornings?
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.

This seems like solid analysis. The overuse of runoffs is becoming all too tedious, IMHO.

this
jumped the shark a few years ago

What is the better alternative to short grass feeding to lower areas?

Ciao

Sorry poorly phrased on my part.
I was agreeing with Ally.


I was also agreeing with Terry that short grass has been over used in recent years(and hence has jumped the shark at many courses)
I see more chipping yips now than I ever used to.

[Thomas Dai]

I see more chipping yips now than I ever used to, and see balls running a long, long way from greens all too often

My Mother wasn’t a good chipper and she knew it so she used one of those ‘chipper’ clubs, ie a putter with 15*-30* loft. She was a genius with it, even using it from 30-40 yds off the green. I’ve played with a few poor chippers over the years but none of them were ever smart enough to realise it and use a specialist ‘chipper’ club. Pride maybe?
And didn’t Francis Ouimet give all his Walker Cup team members who were due to play TOC/StA a ‘jigger’, a short shafted but not hugely lofted iron and tell them to practice a lot with it prior to the event?
As to shots running a long, long way from greens I love it. The more the better and the further they roll the better. Each to their own though.
Atb

[Wayne_Kozun]

At the Pfau Course a few weeks back I ran through 5 green and down a slope of slightly-longer-than-fairway zoysia turf that fed my ball an extra 7 yards down the hill, but it still settled on the slope leaving a pitch back to the slope from an uphill lie.


I played Traditions in Hebron, KY today. It featured plenty of runoff cuts of fairway-length turf that sent balls away from greens, but transitioning to rough before the downslope leveled out. Once again, the result is a pitch rather than a chip, but from an awkward uphill lie.

Why do you consider uphill lies awkard?  I would prefer an uphill lie on a chip to an elevated green rather than a flat lie or downhill lie.  IMO having an uphill lie from medium length grass is far easier than a flat lie from tight grass where if you chunk it is coming right back to you.

[Jason Thurman]

Realizing the original post isn't the clearest description, here's what I'm talking about:


Imagine a tabletop green that sits 10 feet above its surroundings. And imagine that green surrounded by fairway-height grass. But imagine also that the fairway-height grass only extends halfway down the downslopes that surround the green before transitioning to rough.


The result is that imprecise shots get redirected away from the putting surface, but not all the way down to a flat basin full of divots. Balls end up in random spots on the sideslopes around the green. Some might stop on short grass. Most will roll into the rough. But there's a lot of variation in lies, especially compared to a more common "chipping area" where the ball gets shunted into basically the same spot for everybody.


The first time I saw it at Traditions, I thought it looked sorta awkward and half-finished - like a chipping area that somebody started to mow and then stopped halfway down the slope. But as they appeared on a few more holes out there, I started to sorta like them. I don't necessarily love the look, but all the ones at Traditions are hidden behind greens so there's no jarring visual from the fairway, but a ball that runs long on a few approaches might run 10-20 feet farther than you'd expect when it finds short grass and a downslope behind the green.

[Jason Thurman]

At the Pfau Course a few weeks back I ran through 5 green and down a slope of slightly-longer-than-fairway zoysia turf that fed my ball an extra 7 yards down the hill, but it still settled on the slope leaving a pitch back to the slope from an uphill lie.


I played Traditions in Hebron, KY today. It featured plenty of runoff cuts of fairway-length turf that sent balls away from greens, but transitioning to rough before the downslope leveled out. Once again, the result is a pitch rather than a chip, but from an awkward uphill lie.

Why do you consider uphill lies awkard?  I would prefer an uphill lie on a chip to an elevated green rather than a flat lie or downhill lie.  IMO having an uphill lie from medium length grass is far easier than a flat lie from tight grass where if you chunk it is coming right back to you.

Well, don't overestimate how awkward I think they are. At no point did I claim that an uphill lie to an elevated green is trickier than a lie off a downslope. And your final sentence is pretty much exactly my point with why I like these "halfway down the slope" runoff areas - the flat "collection areas" we see so often are always tightly cut, full of divots, usually a little damp since they're a low point, and they're really hard for an average player to hit a good shot from. Sure, they "allow options." But let's get real - the only option for most players is a putter, and I almost never see an average player get the ball inside 15 feet with a putter from a collection area.


Whereas a runoff that feeds the ball a little further from the green, but not all the way down to a flat spot, and leaves it lying in rough with an uphill lie - well, that's MUCH easier for the average player to navigate, but still reasonably challenging for the strong player. It makes it harder for him to use the bounce on his wedge to add some forgiveness to the shot, and a little harder to clip the ball perfectly. The weaker player just wants a chance at an up-and-down, and has a better chance of getting a plausibly-makeable putt than from a collection area. But the stronger player still gets challenged reasonably so that it takes a very good shot to leave an easy putt.

[Brett Meyer]

Generally, if you are going to include run-offs, then they are much better to be taken through the first low point at least; so that they stop on an upslope, promoting balls to remain on short grass.

What's becoming overused for me is not short grass run-offs per se, but short grass run-offs that are too steep and too long where just missing the edge of the green results in the ball being 10 feet down a hill 30 feet away from the green--often with a similar run-off on the other side. I still really like run-offs that drop 1-2 feet and take your ball 10 feet away from the green, but these subtler types of run-offs seem to be less common on the newer courses.


This seems like solid analysis. The overuse of runoffs is becoming all too tedious, IMHO.

this
jumped the shark a few years ago

What is the better alternative to short grass feeding to lower areas?

Ciao

Sorry poorly phrased on my part.
I was agreeing with Ally.


I was also agreeing with Terry that short grass has been over used in recent years(and hence has jumped the shark at many courses)
I see more chipping yips now than I ever used to.