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Karl Jensen

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I have an 1894 newspaper article that reports Tom Dunn laid out the original nine hole course at Chislehurst. I also have a 1900 "Golf Illustrated" magazine that reports Chislehurst Club captain Mr. Easton Devonshire laid out the extended course to eighteen holes. What did Willie Park Jr. have to do with the course? Chislehurst spelled Chiselhurst is listed on the Willie Park 1920's advertisement brochure. Also what did Harry Colt have to do with the course? The Chislehurst GC website states "The present layout is attributed to the legendary course designer Harry S. Colt".

David_Tepper

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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2021, 10:18:05 AM »
Basically a Harry Colt which unless changed has some typical bunkering.


Its a nice little course eight par 3 holes, nice course to break 70. Few crossovers and an impressive club house where Napoleon once stayed.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Karl Jensen

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Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 12:20:36 PM »
I'm looking for some kind of contemporaneous document that links Colt and / or Park to Chislehurst. Thanks for your interest.

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2021, 04:45:40 AM »
I had a discussion with their historian about the design background of Chislehurst. The club has always believed that Colt was involved, but the hard fact is that there is no evidence to support this conjecture.

The club was founded in 1894, a nine hole course. Obviously too early for Colt involvement, he was studying for his solicitors exams in London at the time. It was extended to eighteen in 1900, with a member, Easton Devonshire, generally regarded as being responsible. Again, no real possibility of Colt involvement; he was working as a solicitor in Hastings, although by then he had clearly decided he wanted to be a part of the nascent golf business, given his application in 1899 for the R&A secretary's job.

The final major alterations to the course were in 1913/4, and are credited to James Braid. It is not impossible that Colt might have had some involvement in this work -- I have a couple of examples of courses where he and Braid were both involved. But there is no prima facie evidence that he did.

To quote club historian David Hatton (who I thank for his help): "We are not sure how this speculative link between our course and Harry Colt started, but the bottom line is that in our research we could find no evidence of any connection."

Conclusion: unless evidence emerges, NOT COLT.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 04:48:57 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2021, 07:19:49 AM »
It certainly looks a Colt. I was there a lot in the late 70s. The pro told me it was originally Willie Dunn when it was 9 holes then Colt changed it, but obviously he was wrong.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2021, 07:31:01 AM »
Adam,

The historian made no mention of Willie Park ? This seems another good example of how frequently these early courses were tweaked and altered.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2021, 07:36:03 AM »
Just checked the Braid book and according to it Braid was there in 1914 when he lengthened 1, 2, 3, 11, 12, 15, 18. He also put in 5 new greens (presumably on some of the aforementioned holes but the book doesn't elaborate) as well adding 60 bunkers. Hawtree did the construction.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2021, 07:50:31 AM »
Adam,

The historian made no mention of Willie Park ? This seems another good example of how frequently these early courses were tweaked and altered.

Niall


So far as I am aware, the only evidence of Park involvement is his 1920 brochure (which I haven’t seen).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Karl Jensen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2021, 08:38:16 AM »
Here is the early 1920's Willie Park Jr. golf course list advertisement. I have outlined Chiselhurst in red.



Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 08:46:21 AM »
Spurred on by Karl's Park list, I checked the 1930 Colt & Co list: no mention of Chislehurst on it.


I'm pretty confident he wasn't there, though always open to persuasion by new evidence, of course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Karl Jensen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2021, 09:39:45 AM »
The only link I could find of Colt to Chislehurst is this website that has an extensive Colt list but may not be accurate. Claims Colt advised Chislehurst in 1950.


https://evalu18.com/harry-colt-golf-courses/

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2021, 09:51:26 AM »
The only link I could find of Colt to Chislehurst is this website that has an extensive Colt list but may not be accurate. Claims Colt advised Chislehurst in 1950.

https://evalu18.com/harry-colt-golf-courses/


Not possible. He did no golf work at all after WW2, was basically totally deaf, and died a year later. I'll have a word with Jasper (whose site it is).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Chislehurst Golf Club in Kent, England - Who designed it?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2021, 09:52:23 AM »
The only link I could find of Colt to Chislehurst is this website that has an extensive Colt list but may not be accurate. Claims Colt advised Chislehurst in 1950.

https://evalu18.com/harry-colt-golf-courses/


Not possible. He did no golf work at all after WW2, was basically totally deaf, and died a year later. I'll have a word with Jasper (whose site it is).


Ah, the site is saying that Morrison was there in 1950. That's possible.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.