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Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -23
Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« on: July 15, 2021, 10:48:57 AM »
I think that one can be made.


It's possible that a thread on this topic, on GCA, exists.


It's certain that Tom Doak could give us pros and cons for this move.


I think that (from one, non-playing tour of the course) I'd like to finish by climbing that hill and playing that par three as my final hole of the day.


I know that current 4-9 are some of the most memorable golf holes I've ever seen (and current 1-3 lead into them perfectly.)


I think that the current back nine would set the current front nine up perfectly.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2021, 11:08:00 AM »
I suppose that a case could be made for it, but I like the finishing holes the way they are. I have always found the back nine more difficult and the 3,4,5,4,4 finish very satisfying. I normally had a good score going into the last nine. I like the way it builds. Sixteen is a really good par five and 17 a great risk reward hole. I don't like ending on a par three either.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -8
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2021, 11:53:40 AM »
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
H.P.S.

Jim Franklin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2021, 12:03:00 PM »
I love #1 as an opening hole.
Mr Hurricane

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2021, 12:11:41 PM »
I love #1 as an opening hole.


One of the very best in golf, at least among those I'm familiar with.


And I'm with Tommy - I also love the finish.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Mayhugh

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2021, 12:21:42 PM »
One walk around the course and you're ready to change the routing that MacKenzie & Maxwell came up with? I thought it worked well enough given their inexperience.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 17
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2021, 12:39:38 PM »
Is Pasa the only MacKenzie par three finish? I’d hate for it to become another fake template.

Jason Lietaer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2021, 01:35:20 PM »
I can think of a few reasons to keep them as they are (the incredible start that just punches you in the face; the flow of the course being nearly perfect) but my reason against it is emotional -- one of my favourite walks is the one between 13 and 14.  A terrific, brawny par 4 with one of the best greens I've ever seen followed by a walk to a short 3 that seems like it's at the end of the world with a completely different look and feel.  It's magic.


It feels like it's the perfect time for the spiritual experience that comes at 14, and then you turn for home, steadied for the homestretch.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2021, 01:56:10 PM »
The current 9th green is nearly touching the 10th tee.
To swap the nines and finish on the front, the current front nine would need to be so much better than the back (to negate the proximity aspect), it would relegate Crystal to a 9 hole course (I would only want to play the 9 great holes).
IMO




p.s.
If one could reverse the directions of 10 & 18 (so reverse 18 became #1) with good transitions to 11 (now 2) and from 17 (now 8 ), I'd consider the swap!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 02:02:21 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2021, 05:24:10 PM »
I agree that the front nine has more memorable holes.  But:


A). I don’t agree that you ought to save the best holes for the back nine


B). Current holes 10-11-12-13 would be a brutal start, and most importantly


C). When I go out there for a quick nine holes in the evening, it’s better if I have the front nine to myself  ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2021, 05:41:11 PM »
Based on the Sat. Images I've studied a few times over the years, seems like the current routing benefits from:

-  Having a much better transition from 9 to 10, vs 18 to 1.
-  As Tom mentions a much gentler start to spray it a bit as you figure out the swing before the back 9.
-  Assuming it was built when match play was still a thing, several combinations to pick from after finishing 18.
  1)  Play the par 3 3rd a few times and stay close to the clubhouse,
  2)  Do the 1-2 loop and repeat as needed.
  3)  Even the 1, 7 ,8, 9 - 4 hole loop would probably be pretty interesting.

Only thing I can't figure is what the hell they were thinking by putting the Range so far away!  ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -23
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2021, 11:16:48 PM »
Great to see that everyone agrees with me. My work is done. Here goes:


John Mayhugh: ... for blocking my PMs. Good of you to insult me off the bat. That says loads about you.


Tom and Kalen: Of the first five holes on the current back nine, other than 11, which ones are so much more difficult than one and three?


Mike N: I'm a fan of reversing holes. I find 18 to be a gentle handshake, much more so than 1. I might be wrong.


Jason L: There's plenty of spirituality on the current front nine.


Jason T: What makes one such a good hole? Straight par four, downhill, green benched into a hillside. I've seen it before.


PCCraig: Never my point. Don't know why you would write that.


John K: No one would ever suggest that 18 at Pasatiempo and NEW 18 at Crystal Downs are the same template.


I believe that's everyone. Now, for a bit more from me.


1. Current 10 is a better opening hole than current 1;


2. While current 11 is a bear of a hole, is it that much tougher than current 2?


3. Current 3 is a bear of a par three. Lots of room for doubles and triples there. Just comes one hole later than #11.


4. After the tumble of the front nine, the flatness of stretches of the back nine are a let down. Had a great baseball conversation the entire length of


5. 17 is a quirky and fickle hole. It can destroy your spirit for the closer.


6. The front nine is flawless. Why not finish with flawless, rather than peak at 9?


7. The current back nine, tucked away in the woods, is more of a series of parts than a whole. The current front nine is an entirety, as every hole can be seen from every other hole. That's how I'd like to finish.


7 is a lucky number in Azebaijan. I'll end with seven points and let those with interest agree or disagree.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2021, 11:54:42 PM »
Ron
I don't remember CD quite well enough to know if flipping the 9s would make it 'better'. But on this thread and many others, I often find myself asking a) what makes for 'better'? and b) why do we need to make everything 'better', instead of leaving things alone to be what they already are? 
But:
Yes, the 8th would be an other-worldly 17th hole. But I really like all the Par 3s, right where they are -- and have a particular fondness for the 9th (as 9th) and the 14th especially. And as others have said, but for reasons I can't quite figure out, I think the 1st is a truly wonderful golf hole and (in my rather limited experience) the best opening hole I have ever played -- and proof that the notion of the 'gentle handshake' is misguided.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 12:15:37 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -23
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2021, 06:18:07 AM »
Peter: I don't think that there is a gentle handshake at the 1st or the 10th. From an aesthetic, the quick departure from professional's shop to first tee is comfortable. I believe it would be just as easy to move to the other side of the building, and go off the current 10th. I agree that better is in the eye of the one who beholds. I'll make an odd case for my version of better: A Chorus Line. When it was written, the audience was meant to participate and determine which dancers made the final chorus line. When Cassie did not make the final cut, despite audience support, the audience went home gutted, as if they had suffered the disappointment themselves. There was a palpable heaviness to the air as the public departed. Brecht would have loved it, no doubt, but it wasn't right for Broadway.


The question for me is, Brecht or non-Brecht. While walking and photographing, as my mates played their golf, my anticipation for the three sisters, the bridge hole, and the L Green were palpable. I knew of the lore of 9, but had no idea yet of the brawniness of 8. It punched me in the face, but I wiped the blood away and marveled at its strength. I grew too fond of the tumble of that nine holes. I don't believe that there is a flattish hole among the bunch.


Let's reverse the nines. You get the tumble at the 10th, then you face the 11th as your second hole of the day. So be it. The second at Merion East is a bear. This is a top 20 course in the USA, after all. The course lulls you into a bit of quiet at the 12th and 13th, you have your spiritual moment at 14, then you turn back toward the west to run on home. Some flat at 15 and 16, then more tumble at 17 and 18. Around the clubhouse you go, and you play the incredible other half.


The notion of the ace in golf is vastly overrated. We know that as many bad ones as good ones are made. And yet...to have the opportunity with one swing of your club to finish the round with perfection, is an aesthetic like others mentioned, and yet to be mentioned. In matches, it is the ultimate bye hole.


Crystal Downs is not a professional tournament course. It holds the odd USGA event, and I don't know that its membership does or does want to attract events like the Walker Cup or the Mid-Amateur; it would hold both with incredible success. As such, it need not pander to outside agencies. Does its greatness enhance or subside, based on which nine is played first?
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

John Mayhugh

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2021, 06:57:10 AM »

John Mayhugh: ... for blocking my PMs. Good of you to insult me off the bat. That says loads about you.


Ron,
Aren't you some sort of educator? Surely you understand that there is a difference between "insulting" an IDEA and a person? Here's all that I wrote:
One walk around the course and you're ready to change the routing that MacKenzie & Maxwell came up with? I thought it worked well enough given their inexperience.

Perhaps if you had played CD for years and brought up this idea along some reasoning behind it (besides Doak could come up with pros & cons), I might have been less amused.

As for "blocking my PMs"   years ago there was some option to "ignore this user." I applied that to you with the idea that I wouldn't see posts with fund raising requests and GolfWrx articles. It never really worked, and I'm not sure how to un-ignore. Don't assign too much significance to this.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2021, 08:00:20 AM »

Only thing I can't figure is what the hell they were thinking by putting the Range so far away!  ;)


The range tee was originally to the right of the 10th fairway, hitting across the 10th and 18th up the hill.  Obviously, when the course got busier, that didn’t hold up.  But, I am eternally grateful that they prioritized the best 18 golf holes above having a convenient range, which I almost never use anyway.

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Crystal Downs: A case for reversing the nines
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 09:44:47 AM »
Ron, you're correct that 1 at Crystal Downs is a straight, downhill par 4 with a benched green. That description is as accurate as calling the Mackinac Bridge a suspension bridge.


So why is it special?


Start with the sweeping view. Because it's not just the hole that's all "right there in front of you," but the entirety of the front 9, with morning shadows cast over the rumbling ground and Crystal Lake off in the distance. Those iconic and often funky moments to come can all be picked out in the distance. It's distracting and even breathtaking.


Your focus narrows, at least if you're playing golf. Because that straight, downhill hole is also 450+ yards. The unmistakably Mackenzie bunker looming to your right reminds you of just how cool the next 4 hours could be, but the green looks far enough away that you sorta believe you'll spend all that time just trying to reach it. And even from 450 yards away, it looks pretty damn severe.


You swing. If you're good, you hit a drive that traces itself against that magnificent background on a beeline for the center of the fairway and it's one of the most satisfying shots you've ever hit. If you're smart, you bail out a little bit left to stay the hell away from that bunker. If you're dumb and lucky, maybe you flirt with it and open up the preferred angle of approach. If you're bad, you hit into it. I might have been right of it even. There's oodles of room to play. You're encouraged to open the shoulders and let it fly - that's my favorite kind of opener. You might even get to do it three times before you reach the green. And yet, in all that space, there's still strategy. If you just want to be able to find your ball and hit it again, you can hit it damn near anywhere. But if you want to play golf, you still have to make choices, commit, and execute. Now, doesn't that sound like the type of hole that has appeal for all sorts of players of different skill levels drawn to the game for all sorts of reasons?


If you were smart, you arrive to your approach from the left and realize that you've created a really odd angle to try to hold a green that looks wholly designed to shrug your ball away. You might even consider playing short right and trying to get up and down. Your opponent who hugged the bunker has a much better angle today, but a swing 3 yards looser tomorrow will call his "winning strategy" into question. If you're Josh Tarble, you go ahead and hole the approach from just left of center because you can't eagle 'em all if you don't eagle the first one. For the rest of us, there's probably a pitch shot to hit. Hopefully not a hit-and-hope from one of the bunkers long. Even if your opponent is on the green, don't lose hope. He's only slightly less likely to take 3-or-more to get down than you are.


I could go on, but here's the point: it's a hole that introduces its course wonderfully, with a magnificent sweeping view across its surroundings and trademarkable features. Strategy calls on every shot, and yet the features of the hole itself are subtle enough that you can almost lose sight of them while taking in the view and your mind onto the round of golf at hand. And you're right. It's not a "gentle handshake," and whatever 20 handicapper opined that an opening hole should be a "gentle handshake" might be overwhelmed by it. But I'm a huge fan of Donald Ross' ideal that an opening hole should be a "firm handshake." The opener at Crystal is perfect in that it demonstrates its strength but it also won't punch you right in the face, and while par might be hard to come by, it's also not a hole where you feel like you've botched your start if you make 5. By the time you reach 2 tee you've played one thoroughly engaging hole, have a great idea of what's ahead of you, and have been imbued with a sense of place. I can't think of much more that an opening hole is supposed to do.


I'd be curious to know what holes you've played that make you look at it and say it's a hole you've "seen before."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.