Are perfectly uniform "fescue" areas the white sand bunkers of the 2020's?

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm with John Emerson that seeding rates are key. One of the issues with fescue anywhere is that you need patience while it establishes. If you want quick results, don't use fescue in any location. If you try to push fescue on with water and fertiliser you get Non-Fescue.


The best native roughs I've ever seen were at Royal Dublin, where they had invested in scarifying machines to thin the grass. This was because, during their renovation, a lot of material was imported, and it was more fertile than the native sand. Hence the roughs got thick.


If you're seeding you can get round this by keeping the seeding rate low. You'll still get the tall, waving grass that you are looking for, but it will be open enough to find balls. But it will take several years to establish properly, and lots of clubs aren't prepared to wait that long.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Pat,


Great post.


"Out of play areas" should be native species requiring as little maintenance as possible and reflecting the "sense of place", but are too often "out of place areas".

There is only one turf grass that is native to the United States and I’ve never seen it on a golf course.

Buffalograss? Kansas maybe?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,


Great post.


"Out of play areas" should be native species requiring as little maintenance as possible and reflecting the "sense of place", but are too often "out of place areas".

There is only one turf grass that is native to the United States and I’ve never seen it on a golf course.

Buffalograss? Kansas maybe?

Bingo. Just haven’t played golf in the the plains yet.

[Michael Felton]

I do get a kick out of the words "natural areas" as if they require no maintenance.
And when you take out all the trees, invariably they are replaced with "natural areas" which take a lot of work, OR are complained about because they are unplayable and/or lead to ball hunting .
then, throw in Lymes/ticks multiple tickborne diseases and you are going to hear about such areas.


The phrase "Out of play areas" cracks me up too
Pat has nailed it.

Do folks have photos of these out of play native areas? I haven't seen many courses where there was that much space between fairways that there was room for native areas which are out of play. Are the fairways wide enough on these courses? It all sounds very odd to me.


Ciao

Sean - Here is a link to the Google Image page for my course which gives you a sense of where I come from:  https://www.google.com/search?q=windsong+farm&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS909US909&sxsrf=ALeKk02S7UIY3jR6DZHl3A8NSQpi4H7EpQ:1626205622208&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi21sWD6ODxAhVmAZ0JHaXAD1MQ_AUoA3oECAEQBQ&biw=1366&bih=625


Fairways are plenty wide - when I have looked the playing corridors are around 60 yards wide but in a low handicap group you have one or two searches a round, which a mid-teen handicap group you probably have 5-6 and with guests that are not used to the course, you can have endless searches by the end of the round.  On links courses, the grass is sparse enough that the searches are perfectly fine.  In most of the US, the rich soils mean that the plants grow thick.  It looks pretty but you pretty much walk back to the tee or concede the hole. 


Our superintendent has done a good job mitigating the problem by cutting things back in heavily trafficked spots but the wrong day can be a long day.

Thanks

60 yard playing corridor plus native area out of play? What's that, another 20 yards or is it 60 and a search?  If it's 60 with a search that is definitely not out of play! 30 yards wide of the centre of the fairway should not be an area requiring harsh searches. Every member course should overwhelming accommodate 30 yard wide of the centre of the fairway. It doesn't matter the type of grass, terrain or weather. 60 yards with near death is begging for the game to be slowed down.

Ciao

60 yards with near death would have PGA tour players searching frequently. I read something recently and I can't remember where it was. It basically said that you need 80 yards if you want four C players to not be searching on virtually every hole. 100 yards for four D players. Thick fescue just off the playing corridors is a recipe for long rounds, lost balls and upset golfers IMO.

[Mark_Fine]

I believe it was Pete Dye who used to talk about the beautiful hues across different golf courses.  He was talking about the different types/colors of the grasses and the different textures.  These days, this is missing on some golf courses.  As you pan your view across some layouts (even some of the great ones), now all you see is a Monostand of the same cultivars. Everything is the same and so uniform


Regarding Royal Dublin, I love the look but that might be the toughest "native areas" I have ever played in.  You will find your ball, but it wraps around the golf club and you are lucky to hack the ball back out in play.  It is a real hazard. 


By the way, out of play areas are not out of maintenance areas.  These areas do need maintenance but hopefully a lot less water and fertilizer and cutting than normal rough.  They should be areas where not many golf balls end up. 

[Thomas Dai]

By the way, out of play areas are not out of maintenance areas.  These areas do need maintenance but hopefully a lot less water and fertilizer and cutting than normal rough.  They should be areas where not many golf balls end up.

“..a lot less water and fertilizer....” or no water and fertiliser?
If the areas are areas where not many golf balls end up why water and fertiliser it?
Seems like doing so would be maintenance for maintenances sake with all the consequences in terms of manpower, machinery, fertiliser and money that that brings. Unless the watering and fertilisering (manicuring?) is purely for looks and photography purposes.
Also such watering and fertilisering are likely not a good place for golf as a whole to be in relation to the environment and the anti-golf brigade.
Atb

[Ken Moum]

Pat,


Great post.


"Out of play areas" should be native species requiring as little maintenance as possible and reflecting the "sense of place", but are too often "out of place areas".

There is only one turf grass that is native to the United States and I’ve never seen it on a golf course.

Out on the prairie buffalgrass is native, and while rare, there are some courses with it in the fairways.


It's a lovely, tight turf if you can get male clones which don't have flowers.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Pat,


Great post.


"Out of play areas" should be native species requiring as little maintenance as possible and reflecting the "sense of place", but are too often "out of place areas".

There is only one turf grass that is native to the United States and I’ve never seen it on a golf course.

Out on the prairie buffalgrass is native, and while rare, there are some courses with it in the fairways.


It's a lovely, tight turf if you can get male clones which don't have flowers.

What mowing height will it flower at?

[Ken Moum]

Pat,


Great post.


"Out of play areas" should be native species requiring as little maintenance as possible and reflecting the "sense of place", but are too often "out of place areas".

There is only one turf grass that is native to the United States and I’ve never seen it on a golf course.

Out on the prairie buffalgrass is native, and while rare, there are some courses with it in the fairways.


It's a lovely, tight turf if you can get male clones which don't have flowers.

I transplanted a bunch of it to my yard in Pierre,  SD about 30 years ago and IIRC I'd get some mowing at about 1.5 inches. But that height is just a guess as I was using an old corded electric mower.


The prairie course I know had it was really rustic and I only played it once a looong time ago.


There are several cultivars.


What mowing height will it flower at?

[Mark Mammel]

I think Pat's point is that where fescue is not the native grass for the type of soil, creating the artificial effect of pure fescue contradicts the effort to play the land as it is. If fescue doesn't grow in the soil, is it right for the course? Native grasses are a reflection of the local ecology- but as Ran noted ion the original 147 description, Prairie Dunes missed out because of the gunch. Native, yes. Golf-friendly? no. Another trend is tree removal, but I would put this in a completely different category for most courses. During the 50s-70s, many clubs had aggressive tree planting programs, with memorial tree committees. Many of the older courses from pre-1940 were essentially treeless when they were built. Removing the trees now is restoration, not imposing as artificial look based on current fashion. I love the look of fescue in Scotland, but if it means killing all the grasses, sand-capping and replanting I can't see that as improvement.

[Sean_A]

By the way, out of play areas are not out of maintenance areas.  These areas do need maintenance but hopefully a lot less water and fertilizer and cutting than normal rough.  They should be areas where not many golf balls end up.

“..a lot less water and fertilizer....” or no water and fertiliser?
If the areas are areas where not many golf balls end up why water and fertiliser it?
Seems like doing so would be maintenance for maintenances sake with all the consequences in terms of manpower, machinery, fertiliser and money that that brings. Unless the watering and fertilisering (manicuring?) is purely for looks and photography purposes.
Also such watering and fertilisering are likely not a good place for golf as a whole to be in relation to the environment and the anti-golf brigade.
Atb

In the 70s I often played munis and county courses. It was very common for the wide areas to be 2ish inches of patchy rough-hard pan. Areas were obviously only cut and probably weed sprayed, but not watered or fertilised unless there were extreme circumstances. Seemed to work fine. It wasn't pretty mind you...and I think eye candy is a big driver for this recent native area push. Although, the promise of added wildlife seems a reasonable tradeoff if the areas are more like 50 yards from the centre of fairways.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

By the way, out of play areas are not out of maintenance areas.  These areas do need maintenance but hopefully a lot less water and fertilizer and cutting than normal rough.  They should be areas where not many golf balls end up.

“..a lot less water and fertilizer....” or no water and fertiliser?
If the areas are areas where not many golf balls end up why water and fertiliser it?
Seems like doing so would be maintenance for maintenances sake with all the consequences in terms of manpower, machinery, fertiliser and money that that brings. Unless the watering and fertilisering (manicuring?) is purely for looks and photography purposes.
Also such watering and fertilisering are likely not a good place for golf as a whole to be in relation to the environment and the anti-golf brigade.
Atb

In the 70s I often played munis and county courses. It was very common for the wide areas to be 2ish inches of patchy rough-hard pan. Areas were obviously only cut and probably weed sprayed, but not watered or fertilised unless there were extreme circumstances. Seemed to work fine. It wasn't pretty mind you...and I think eye candy is a big driver for this recent native area push. Although, the promise of added wildlife seems a reasonable tradeoff if the areas are more like 50 yards from the centre of fairways.

Ciao

+1
Real patchy "rough" which natural lack of formal irrigation limits how much mowing it needs.And can create interesting recovery options.


Eye candy has been a huge driver since the 80's.
The wildlife areas can be be nice too if just thought out where they aren't symetrically framing both sides every single hole, where inevitably someone is looking every single hole.
and those "wildlife areas"

[Thomas Dai]

Just let nature determine the set-up. It did a pretty good job for 100+ yrs.
Atb

[Joe Hancock]

Just let nature determine the set-up. It did a pretty good job for 100+ yrs.
Atb

Except irrigation systems have crept out to property lines now, rather than just being necessary for tees, fairways and greens. We, as a species, aren’t very content with *function* as the priority.

[John Emerson]

Just let nature determine the set-up. It did a pretty good job for 100+ yrs.
Atb

The problem with that statement is that anthropogenic activity has introduced so many damn invasive species.  Those same species have decades of seeds in the seed bank.  Those must be controlled either chemically or by hand.  Large areas (golf course no-mow areas) by hand is not really an option at most courses.  Just letting nature “happen” is a poor idea.  Get the right seeds and the right rates and you can have a successful native area with little to no inputs that looks good and plays well.

[Sean_A]

By the way, out of play areas are not out of maintenance areas.  These areas do need maintenance but hopefully a lot less water and fertilizer and cutting than normal rough.  They should be areas where not many golf balls end up.

“..a lot less water and fertilizer....” or no water and fertiliser?
If the areas are areas where not many golf balls end up why water and fertiliser it?
Seems like doing so would be maintenance for maintenances sake with all the consequences in terms of manpower, machinery, fertiliser and money that that brings. Unless the watering and fertilisering (manicuring?) is purely for looks and photography purposes.
Also such watering and fertilisering are likely not a good place for golf as a whole to be in relation to the environment and the anti-golf brigade.
Atb

In the 70s I often played munis and county courses. It was very common for the wide areas to be 2ish inches of patchy rough-hard pan. Areas were obviously only cut and probably weed sprayed, but not watered or fertilised unless there were extreme circumstances. Seemed to work fine. It wasn't pretty mind you...and I think eye candy is a big driver for this recent native area push. Although, the promise of added wildlife seems a reasonable tradeoff if the areas are more like 50 yards from the centre of fairways.

Ciao

+1
Real patchy "rough" which natural lack of formal irrigation limits how much mowing it needs.And can create interesting recovery options.


Eye candy has been a huge driver since the 80's.
The wildlife areas can be be nice too if just thought out where they aren't symetrically framing both sides every single hole, where inevitably someone is looking every single hole.
and those "wildlife areas"

I agree. A lot of old courses probably only have a few realistic areas to give over to wildlife. Most have most of the property as realistically in play areas. It's been the huge reduce fairway width movement which has created the illusion of out of play areas.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Letting nature 'just happen' isn't where I'm coming from and I appreciate that irrigation water does spread wider than we might like it too.
If the space is there however, let the native grass just grow in places where shots are unlikely to go. As I mentioned in an earlier post mow such areas once (or maybe twice?) annually at the most appropriate time of year for both golf and wildlife to keep the area in check and prevent self-seeders and invasive species from getting a hold.
Maybe this approach isn't appropriate in some parts of the World but if allowed to happen it seems to work just fine at courses in the UK (on all sorts type of course).
atb



PS - yee olde day approach (couldn't resist posting!)

[Ken Moum]

Native grasses are a reflection of the local ecology- but as Ran noted ion the original 147 description, Prairie Dunes missed out because of the gunch. Native, yes. Golf-friendly? no.

The truth is, that stuff at Prairie Dunes isn't can't possibly be technically actually native.  Real prairie was defined by a fire ecology, or buffalo grazing in some areas. This periodically took everything down to the ground and removed trees and brush.


Go look at the nearby Flint Hills where the ranchers have regular burns to maintain the


Here's a quote from https://www.epa.gov/ks/epa-region-7-research-spotlight-studying-fire-flint-hills


"The Flint Hills, which span from northern Kansas into Oklahoma, are a tallgrass prairie ecosystem forged by fire. Native Americans routinely burned prairie to entice bison, who were attracted to the fresh grass sprouting up from scorched hills. Mother Nature also set fires through lightning strikes and wildfires. As a result, a lush but delicate ecosystem of grasses emerged, becoming dependent on fire to sustain a treeless ecosystem."


When the Women's Open was at Prairie Dunes, I talked to an ecologist who'd been working with PD and he said they were trying to do some burns, but the simple fact is that places like that have been surrounded by civilization, and the course itself has too much infrastructure to do the below, despite the fact that I think it would be a MUCH better golf course if they could.

[Jeff Schley]

I really like the fescue look for several reasons. First it means you don’t have trees dominating the course and I prefer fescue over heavily treed. It shouldn’t have to be irrigated and one place that stands out to me in the courses I have played (other than PD) is Onwentsia Club.