[Norbert P]

Everyone who has looked at that property has commented that it is inferior to the first two pieces of land.  

Ooooh,  quote quote.

I think I commented on the land after I walked it last February.  I don't think I ever said it was inferior to other two sites but I might have said (and still feel) that it is the most challenging site of the three to design on.   I have plenty of confidence in the group to impress us with a grand result... again.  It's all very exciting to think that there'll be 3 fab courses to choose from.  That's strategic golf.  

[SPDB]

They built the bunkers the way they wanted to, irrespective of the site.  That's their style.

So you do agree with me. You've merely parroted what I said.

If you concede,
1) that the bit about building Mac style bunkers at Bandon is Keiser's idea
2) that the bunkers that will appear are Mac style bunkers

then you have to concede that they didn't build bunkers the way they want to, unless of course they came up with that idea independent of Keiser, which doesn't look to be the case.

Tom's right, I had forgot your cliche about "King's Shilling."
But thankfully Tom responded that if they don't like the concept, chances are Keiser will see their taillights. More likely, Keiser being the sensible man he is, will respect the fact that C&C have a well established track record of design, and they probably know what's best for the site, or what will bring out their best, even if that means scotching the Australian Bunkers Course at Bandon Dunes.

P.S.  I may get out to The Creek this weekend, and will bring my camera for ground level shots.

Were you aware, that when you play one of the great skyline greens in the world, the 18th at NGLA, that you can see trees behind the green and to the left, from certain angles in the fairway ?  Would that disqualify # 18 at NGLA as a skyline green in your opinion ??

Pat - you've made these photography promises before. I am well aware of NGLA's green. Unfortunately, #5 doesn't sit on a promontory, but merely on a gentle slope with old growth trees behind it. If you do go, I am relying on your integrity not to hit your 2nd shot onto the tennis courts merely to give yourself a beneficial angle from which to photographically capture #5 green. A simple shot from the center of the fairway will suffice.

I'm personally looking forward to going 2-up

[DPL11]

I don't think there are too many sites left that only require seeding and cutting cups to open for play.

Have C&C done anything more than the minimal amount of earthwork on any of their designs so far?

The think the term "minimalist" is a little overused, and has several degrees to it's definition. I don't think capping fairway features with sand, but keeping the same ground contours can be classified as not minamalist. It is simply creating a proper growing environment for turfgrass. If the native material was appropriate, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Have these guys done any work that could have been any more "minimal" than the site they were given? I don't think so, IMHO.


DPL11

[Norbert P]

Have these guys done any work that could have been any more "minimal" than the site they were given?

DPL11

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/talkingstick1.html

A perfect example of minimalistic land with minimalistic* results.  

* I mean that in highest regards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I my inimitable style, I concede nothing.
This is all speculation on your part and everyone else's part.
See my reference to Brad Klein to get my true feelings on this.

You label the falloff behind the 5th green as a gentle fall off ?

The clubhouse sits on a promontory and so does the 5th green which is almost parallel to the clubhouse, and next to the sixth tee.

Perhaps the photo on page 56 of "Golf Clubs of the MGA" will refresh your memory.  In describing the 6th hole Dr Quirin writes, "the hole plays from a tee elevated FAR above a tumbling fairway."   "Where one can enjoy one of the most breathtaking vistas in Met Area Golf, with both Greenwich and Stamford in sight across the sound."

I've lost my soft draw, so the tennis courts seem safe.
I would think that photos from the left rough line, centerline and right rough line shoud provide sufficient evidence for us to settle this.

[SPDB]

Pat - Tumbling is a far cry from sharp drop off. Unfortunately (for you), the 5th hole still occupies the high flat land of the property. If you are referring to the immediate drop behind the green, I'll concede that (see, its easy), but it is really only a 10 foot drop at most to the road that winds its way down to the beach club. And a 10 foot drop doesn't negate the view of the 100 foot high trees behind the green.

It's really a shame that you think its a skyline green. Part of the allure of the 6th Tee is it affords you for the first time a view of the sweep of the course as well as the Long Island Sound and Westchester. If the 5th Green were really a skyline green, as you insist, it would be on that green where the view is first made. Perhaps that sensorial reminder will stir your memory.  

A little chilly for linksmanship this wknd, wouldn't you say?

P.S. Did you know that Joe Dey had eliminated all but 3 bunkers at The Creek in order to make it fairer? I've tried to no avail to get Tom Doak to tell me which 3 were spared.

[Matthew Schulte]

"Greens on the new course might have annual blue grass, the type of grass used on nearly every course that has been in the rotation to host the U.S. Open, Russell said."

Does anyone else interpret this to mean they see this being the course (not the first two) that would host a big event (no slight against the Walker Cup) in the future?  It is hard to tell based on how that quote is typed where Russell's quote ends.  Was he making the point about annual blue grass be used on nearly every course on the US Open rotation or was that the journalist providing background?  

 

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
If you only take two projects a year, you can choose your site and your employer.
When you're well to do it's easy to turn down jobs with bad sites, and employers with bad ideas.  Try doing it when you've got a wife and three kids to feed and $ 14,500 in your bank account.
Ask Tom Doak about Atlantic City and doing the King's bidding.
Walking away from a project or showing your taillights is a luxury reserved for the well to do."

Well, Pat, I guess it just might have to be said then that one of the more interesting ironies of really great architecture is that Coore and Crenshaw are well to do.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Erdman:

Thanks for your report. Amidst all the speculation, it is nice to hear from someone who has actually walked the property.

I'm going to remember your comments. Much of the rest just seems like noise.

[MargaretC]

...I am a fan of golf courses that "play" well. I have found that courses that "play" well are those that fit the land that they occupy and that are designed with an understanding of the weather to which the courses are subject and the grasses that prosper in the climate and the soil.  My pet peeves are trees and flowers on a golf course and bunkers at the turning point of a dogleg.

My favorite courses are those that feature greens than lie on the land rather than of artificial construct. Greens with "hole positions" and swales created by bulldozers leave me cold while those greens with undulations that are part and parcel of  the surrounding terrain give me goosebumps. The greatest green I have ever played is the fourth at Garden City.

When courses and locations proudly take the mantle of greatness, then they have an obligation to that appellation if they wish to keep it.

Pinehurst was once a great golf location. Bandon Dunes is one now.

Gentlemen:

My house should be quiet and I should be getting ready to go to sleep.  Instead, here I sit with baby Erin, "our wild" 5-month-old-twin, who seems to be ready for a marathon; missing the company of my business traveling much-better-half and trying to fully grasp the magnitude of a travesty that has yet to take place at a golf resort on the Southern coast of the State of Oregon.      

Mr. Keller, if I comprehend your comment that I've quoted above, I agree with everything with the exception of the 4th green at Garden City (I haven't played it) and I also have never played Pinehurst.

I can only speak for myself; however, when it comes to the courses I love -- Oakmont, many courses on the British Isles, Bandon Dunes, etc. -- I have no idea what the land really looked like prior to the opening of those golf courses or how the land really looked in the years preceeding my first visit.  

So, for example with Oakmont, I have absolutely no idea what, if any, land was "moved" or "artificially constructed" by Mr. Fownes, but IMO, the course looks as if it fits the land it occupies -- Oakmont is exquisite and it gives me goosebumps.

I am aware that the 2 courses at Bandon Dunes required "prep work."  I couldn't tell you if that "prep work" was more or less typical, but I can tell you that I also love Bandon and Pacific Dunes and, to me, they also appear to fit the land that they occupy.  

I respect your right to your opinion, but with all due respect, your angst seems a bit premature, but, hey, it's your right to fret.  

And Mr. Mucci, you appear to be distressed that this article indicates that Mike Keiser has expressed his desire to have "Australian-type" bunkers in the design of this new course.    

How dare the owner of the property express a preference!  That is simply outrageous.  

Patrick, Patrick, Patrick first of all, C&C are still in the prep stage.  But, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that C&C chooses to accomodate the preference expressed by Mike Keiser and they build "Australian-type" bunkers on this new course.  Are you saying that the end result can never be acceptable, no matter how natual-looking and exquisite, because C&C "pandered" to the client?    Give me a break!

If it weren't for "wild baby Erin" on my lap, I wouldn't even be trying to understand this thread.  Actually, I think "wild Erin" may be able to read because I think this thread has gotten to her, too.  Her eyes have glazed-over and I think that she may be falling to sleep.  Hooray!  

If "wild Erin" falls asleep for the remainder of the night, my heartfelt thanks go to Messrs. Keller and Mucci.

Maybe I am a bit cynical; however, I doubt if C&C are the first architects or first consultants to pay attention to preferences expressed by a client if that, indeed, is the end result.

However, until demonstrated otherwise, I choose to defer to the track record of Mike Keiser -- he's demonstrated that he's earned it.  The rest of this is anticipatory criticism based upon little, if any, facts.

Mission accomplished!  "Wild Erin" sleeps in my lap!  Good night, all!  Sleep well!  

P.S.  Hey, Mr. Mucci, deciphering one of your posts may be an antidote to baby Erin's occasional late-night burst of energy.  Thank you, my friend.  I may only have minor dark circles under my eyes when I get up later!  

You, of course, know that I am only joking with you.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Pat -If you are referring to the immediate drop behind the green, I'll concede that (see, its easy), but it is really only a 10 foot drop at most to the road that winds its way down to the beach club. And a 10 foot drop doesn't negate the view of the 100 foot high trees behind the green.

Ten foot drop ?  Look at the picture, and then tell me how far below the 5th green, the sixth green sits ??
And then tell me how much lower the beach club sits relative to the sixth and fifth greens.  When I was a kid, we searched our lives to find a steep drop off like that for toboganing and sledding


It's really a shame that you think its a skyline green. Part of the allure of the 6th Tee is it affords you for the first time a view of the sweep of the course as well as the Long Island Sound and Westchester.

AHA, now you're starting to get it.  On the 5th, all you see is skyline, not the horizon, hence, it's a skyline green.
A skyline green means that you don't see the horizon.
You're clearly confused  

If the 5th Green were really a skyline green, as you insist, it would be on that green where the view is first made.
 
WRONG, then it wouldn't be a skyline green, but a vista including everything in sight to the horizon  

Are you sure that you understand the nature of a skyline green

P.S. Did you know that Joe Dey had eliminated all but 3 bunkers at The Creek in order to make it fairer? I've tried to no avail to get Tom Doak to tell me which 3 were spared.

Sadly, as nice a fellow and a good administrator, Joe Dey fell victim of the need to make the course fairer, not really grasping the architectural intent.  One would think that visits to nearby Piping Rock and NGLA would have created a greater sense of awareness.

He reminds me a lot of TEPaul, great guys, but they just don't get it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Margaret C,

Would you cite for me, exactly where I appear distressed that Mike Keiser wants Australian type bunkers

I fear that your maternal duties have exhausted you and you're now hallucinating.  I am now concerned about your children.  Do you know the local number for DYFUS ?

If you had read this thread more thoroughly, you would have seen where I indicated that C&C would build the bunkers just fine.

You may also want to reread my comments regarding Mike Keisers work to date, and my confidence that he'll continue to produce a terrific product.

It would seem that exhaustion has you confusing my posts with those of others.  After a good night's sleep, re-read this thread and let me know if you find the error of your ways ?

[TEPaul]

"P.S. Did you know that Joe Dey had eliminated all but 3 bunkers at The Creek in order to make it fairer? I've tried to no avail to get Tom Doak to tell me which 3 were spared."

and,

"Sadly, as nice a fellow and a good administrator, Joe Dey fell victim of the need to make the course fairer, not really grasping the architectural intent.  One would think that visits to nearby Piping Rock and NGLA would have created a greater sense of awareness."

You must be joking--Joe Dey eliminated all but three bunkers at The Creek? I don't think so. He eliminated some bunkers maybe even a lot of bunkers but I sure didn't hear he eliminated all the bunkers but three. I spent a couple of days there a few weeks ago and it seems like I met and spoke to everyone there who's responsible for the golf course and nobody said he eliminated all but three bunkers. Nobody said he eliminated those bunkers in the name of fairness either and this from people who knew Joe Dey well and worked with him on the green committee and such. Joe Dey eliminated some bunkers simply because he didn't like spending the money to maintain some of the bunkers. Joe Dey also apparently couldn't stand to even hear the name C.B. Macdonald--basically he couldn't stand the guy, saying things like;

"Don't talk about that man--he didn't know anything about golf course architecture."

The word is during the tenure of Joe Dey's oversight of the course at the Creek the course became somewhat neglected and sort of rundown and Joe did the things he did at the Creek not in the name of fairness but because he was an unusually penurious man! There's a story that Joe recommended (a recommendation the club accepted) dropping a land option the Creek held for eons that was so attractive I don't even want to think about it much less talk about it. But in fairness to Joe Dey and the Creek at that time they just felt they did not have the money and did not feel like going into debt. Easy for us to say they should've excercised it back then and gone into debt at that time but then again Joe Dey was an unusually penurious man. Damn shame, though, because had they excerised that option back then they could've sold a single acre of that massive chunk today and payed for that whole chunk of land about four times over! And with all that money they could've done God knows what to the course--certainly they could've used some of it to restore the sand to the bunkers Joe Dey removed the sand from in the name of saving money! Probably would've had a ton left over too for all kinds of whiskey and wine money to keep people like me oiled for free when I was there and when I go back. But Joe Dey was just an unusually penurious man so it wasn't to be. That kinda thing happens in the annals of some clubs sometimes.

All this penuriousness at the Creek is frankly unbelievably ironic as the group of men who founded the Creek Club back in the 1920s were without question the biggest collection of heavy hitters the world of golf clubs has ever known, bar none, end of story, period, exclamation mark! They were the absolute creme de la creme of the New York and Long Island financial, legal and social world. So it's ironic as hell that the Creek would've ever devolved into penuriousness of any kind but they did under Joe Dey's tenure.

For any of you out there who don't know what penuriousness means---it means rock bottom, bottom of the barrel Scottish/Calvinist CHEAP! But what the hell, maybe none of us need to get on Joe Dey's case at this point particularly the way some of you Golfclubatlas.com contributors and brilliant golf architecture analysts are throwing some terms around recently. Maybe it'd just be a better and a more proper thing at this point to call Joe Dey a "Minimalist" and leave it at that!"    
 

[rgkeller]

It does seem certain that Mr. Dey would not be a fan of the proposed Australian bunkers at BD.

[Tom_Doak]

This whole thread is ridiculous, and I've tried not to say anything about it (I haven't even read the middle half).  But, as to the above, when we restored The Creek it still had a lot of bunkers, though quite a few had been changed.

We were told by the superintendent (Bill Jones, now at Friar's Head) that when Mr. Dey was green chairman, he had his own master plan for the course, and that eventually he would have eliminated all but four of the bunkers.  Bill never said which four; he just said that Mr. Dey liked to talk about how Augusta only had 22 bunkers to start with, and he thought that was the right idea (even though Macdonald's Creek had about 150).

As for the new course at Bandon, I think it's absolutely pointless for any of you to be speculating and arguing about it.  Unless Bill Coore or Mike Keiser comes on here to discuss what they're doing, everything is pure gossip.  All you can do is wait and see what they come up with.

I'll be excited to see the result.

P.S.  For the record, the most-photographed hole at Pacific Dunes, #13, was blown down to the sandstone when we started, and we had to cap it.  We didn't have any trouble tying it in, though ... we capped it from the cliff on the left to the edge of the bunkers all along the right.  Is that minimalist?  Why should I care??

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Mr. Doak,

I agree with the fact that the topic has gotten a bit long winded.  I was drawn to the article becuase of the topic of minimalism.

Your last statement on sand capping the hole near a cliff, is an interesting point.  I am sure you had to do this and you were probably not worried about minimalist discussion boards.

I just have a hard time when some GCAers hold definitions of minimalism to different designers.  And I am not typing to get attacked.  It just seems that minimalist design can only be achieved when all facets of the design allign...ie:  the designers intentions, the sites characterisitcs, routing, etc.

Do I think that your design @ Bandon is not minimalist?  I dont know, I was not involved in the project nor have I been there....I would warrant a guess that its a design with the above facets.

Do you think that changing the entire land composition to achieve a certain design/playability is truly minimalist....this is off the subject of the new #3 Bandon Course?  I know when it is all said and done if the project looks like it has sat on the land forever then you have made grand steps in a minimalist approach but if you have taken a cliff/ridge down and it is never to be seen again but looks like it was never there etc...is this minimalist?

Just would like to hear your points on minimalist approach in design...can it mean something different for certain sites???

[Dan Herrmann]

This whole thread is ridiculous... I'll be excited to see the result.

Mr. Doak,
Thank you for the "Posting of the Year"  

[MargaretC]

Margaret C,

Would you cite for me, exactly where I appear distressed that Mike Keiser wants Australian type bunkers

...If you had read this thread more thoroughly, you would have seen where I indicated that C&C would build the bunkers just fine.

You may also want to reread my comments regarding Mike Keisers work to date, and my confidence that he'll continue to produce a terrific product.

It would seem that exhaustion has you confusing my posts with those of others.  After a good night's sleep, re-read this thread and let me know if you find the error of your ways ?

Patrick:

My "bunker example" probably did not clearly articulate the essence of the non-issues you seemed to try to make into big deals.  However, my comment: Are you saying that the end result can never be acceptable, no matter how natual-looking and exquisite? should have been directed to your concern regarding the amount of dirt, etc. that C&C moves during the process.

"...If the natural topography is maintained through massive earth moving, does that still allow the design process to be labeled minimalist ??..."

You've also taken shots and C&C because they limit their client load.  You seem to consider their self-imposed limit unfair.  To whom?  

"...If you only pick ideal sites for your work, you can be choosey, but when you have to work with less then an ideal site, perhaps your design and construction methods will become more varied, more flexible, like others..."

Patrick, any business can choose to limit their client load.

I misstated your shot at Mike Keiser.

"...If you think the Bandon Resort is all about the golf, perhaps you should re-read the master plan filed on it's behalf.
A contributor was kind enough to provide it.  It might open up your eyes with regard to the reality of the situation.
There's a lot more then golf going on..."

What in the heck does that mean?  If you are complimenting Mike Keiser, I apologize; however, it sure sounds like a "shot."

BTW, it is DYFS not DYFUS.  Neither a cute nor funny remark and I chose not to grace it with a reply.

Thank heavens for Tom Doak!  

[SPDB]

Pat -

How is this possible, really? Think about it for a second. We are not talking about the view from the fairway (the criteria for a skyline green), but the view once you reach the green. If you think about it, your response is absurd. :

If the 5th Green were really a skyline green, as you insist, it would be on that green where the view is first made.

WRONG, then it wouldn't be a skyline green, but a vista including everything in sight to the horizon  

This whole time I have been laboring under the assumption that you knew what a skyline green was.

Let me ask you a quick question:

If you had to characterize the shape of #5 would you call it gentle left, straight or gentle right? Same question as to the green orientation.

[RJ_Daley]

You know who I envy in all of this.  Baby Erin.  Here we are, a bunch of middle aged+ white men typing away in our pajamas.  We were here when Baby Erin finally fell asleep, and we are here before she wakes.  Now Margaret, are you sure you want to get yourself tangled up in this sort of sleepless exchange of prattle?  

Dr Katz, what do you have for inducing a coma? I'll take a years supply, thanks...

[TEPaul]

"P.S.  For the record, the most-photographed hole at Pacific Dunes, #13, was blown down to the sandstone when we started, and we had to cap it.  We didn't have any trouble tying it in, though ... we capped it from the cliff on the left to the edge of the bunkers all along the right.  Is that minimalist?  Why should I care??"

TomD;

You definitely should not care--no one should. This whole subject and discussion of "minimalism" is going on quite a ride--a really ridiculous ride on here!

[TEPaul]

The new and purer definition of "minimalism" in golf architecture inspired by some of our contributors is do not touch any natural contours on a site even if they don't work that well for golf. Do not sand-cap any fairways as that might disturb natural contours. If a question arises as to the prospect of disturbing natural contours with sand-capping in the name of better turf conditions and better playing conditions in the future the prudent and proper thing to do is to forget about turf conditions and playing conditions in the future. The absolute purest form of "minimalism" is for architects to require golfers to play into fairways of dense underbrush and dense trees so as never to disturb any natural contours or anything else on the natural site. The first and greatest anti-hero of all "minimalist" architecture and the creator of destructive man-made golf architecture was Alan Roberston when he thoughtlessly cleared back the narrow corridors of TOC to make room for wide and double fairway areas in 1848!

[MargaretC]

You know who I envy in all of this.  Baby Erin.  Here we are, a bunch of middle aged+ white men typing away in our pajamas.  We were here when Baby Erin finally fell asleep, and we are here before she wakes.  Now Margaret, are you sure you want to get yourself tangled up in this sort of sleepless exchange of prattle?  

Dr Katz, what do you have for inducing a coma? I'll take a years supply, thanks...

RJ:

Absolutely!  What's not to love about being cuddled, kissed and spoken to in warm, lovey hushed tones the majority of your waking hours intermingled with food and warm baths?

I really enjoy this web site and wish that I had more time to lurk & learn and occasionally post.  That said, regardless of my degree of interest, were it not for precious Erin, I can assure you that I would not have been on this site late last evening/early this morning.  She is a wonderfully good-natured baby.  Neither she nor her twin brother cry unless it is really important, but, at least once a week, Erin wakes up between 10p-11p full of energy and just wants some action for a few hours.  No matter how long she stays awake, her wake up time never changes.  Thankfully, twin brother, Ennis, seldom wakes up during the night.    

Strangely, last night, she fell asleep well-within 90 minutes of getting up.  I assure you, that the next time Erin wants some late night action, either Mom or Dad will again sign onto this web site!  She was really engrossed for about 30 minutes.  She fought sleep for a while, but not too long.  Magic!    

I'll never argue with success!  

[Michael Dugger]

Everyone who has looked at that property has commented that it is inferior to the first two pieces of land.  

Ooooh,  quote quote.

I haven't ever been more pleased to be mistaken.

This thread is stupid

[Jeff Goldman]

My curiosity is, what will he build on the fourth site, and who will he choose to design it.

Pat, I know one thing:

Coore and Crenshaw won't do it

Someone had to.

Jeff Goldman

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