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Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« on: June 12, 2021, 03:40:35 AM »
Many golfers thoughts and opinions seems to be generated by what they see on TV.
But TV coverage of tournaments essentially focus’s, with an occasional exception, on the top of the leaderboard.
What’s happening through the majority of the field, and particularly at the back of the field, isn’t something we get to view on TV.
Does this cause a misconception amongst golfers? We get to view the players playing well, hitting miraculous shots, holing loads of putts etc. We don’t get to see players hitting it fat, spraying shots into the gunch, leaving bunker shots in the sand, four putting etc, yet all these happen.
Does this disparity in viewing cause a misconception amongst viewing golfers and the public?
Would it be nice to view an event from the perspective of the players at the middle and particularly the back of the field? Whilst it might not make mainstream coverage there’s surely the potential for a one-off programme or a something along the lines of a documentary?
Thoughts?
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 07:36:50 AM »
Many golfers thoughts and opinions seems to be generated by what they see on TV.
But TV coverage of tournaments essentially focus’s, with an occasional exception, on the top of the leaderboard.
What’s happening through the majority of the field, and particularly at the back of the field, isn’t something we get to view on TV.
Does this cause a misconception amongst golfers? We get to view the players playing well, hitting miraculous shots, holing loads of putts etc. We don’t get to see players hitting it fat, spraying shots into the gunch, leaving bunker shots in the sand, four putting etc, yet all these happen.
Does this disparity in viewing cause a misconception amongst viewing golfers and the public?
Would it be nice to view an event from the perspective of the players at the middle and particularly the back of the field? Whilst it might not make mainstream coverage there’s surely the potential for a one-off programme or a something along the lines of a documentary?
Thoughts?
Atb


Furthermore, deciding of a course's "worthiness" of hosting a Championship by looking at winning score is ludicrous.
There are plenty of courses and setups that could produce a winning score of even par or higher(even without the cheap trick of coverting par 5's to par 4's)
But such courses may be unplayable for the bottom third of a field, even the bottom half in less elite events than a PGA Tour event.
It's hard to control how low the hottest player in an elite field on an other wise brutal course/setup will go(see Tiger at Pebble in 2000) but it's pretty easy to predict how well the filed in general will do.


There are certain events that are zero fun for competitors and spectators alike, played on awful courses/setups, due to organizers fixation on a certain winning score.
Modern courses, created to match the wide scale of today's game, often produce such golf(an then their organizers are lauded for using a forward tee to create an awkward "drivable" par 4.


Throw in the modern tolerance of Jordan Spiethlike antics with caddie commentary/interaction and everyone is running between shots to avoid a 6 hour round on the modern monstrocity.
UGH....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Felton

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2021, 07:50:02 AM »
Many golfers thoughts and opinions seems to be generated by what they see on TV.
But TV coverage of tournaments essentially focus’s, with an occasional exception, on the top of the leaderboard.
What’s happening through the majority of the field, and particularly at the back of the field, isn’t something we get to view on TV.
Does this cause a misconception amongst golfers? We get to view the players playing well, hitting miraculous shots, holing loads of putts etc. We don’t get to see players hitting it fat, spraying shots into the gunch, leaving bunker shots in the sand, four putting etc, yet all these happen.
Does this disparity in viewing cause a misconception amongst viewing golfers and the public?
Would it be nice to view an event from the perspective of the players at the middle and particularly the back of the field? Whilst it might not make mainstream coverage there’s surely the potential for a one-off programme or a something along the lines of a documentary?
Thoughts?
Atb


It absolutely does. It's why you watch 15 handicappers disgusted with themselves when they hit it 30 feet away from 100 yards. Lou Stagner on Twitter has lately been tweeting about the percentage of the time that Tiger hits it outside x feet from y yards away. It's quite surprisingly high generally speaking.


This incidentally is why I like watching the featured group coverage and why I was never bothered by watching TV coverage when they showed every shot Tiger hit. It's much more interesting to me to watch a player work their way around the course than it is to watch every good-great shot that gets hit by the field. I followed DJ round Shinnecock in the US Open a couple of years ago and that was fascinating. He didn't really look like he did much, but he walked off having shot about 67 I think it was. Watching coverage it feels like they're making birdies everywhere, but they're not. They make 4 or 5 a round, mostly on par fives and they make a bunch of pars.


Scoring well is really about making fewer bogeys, but you'd never guess that from watching TV golf.


Funnily enough I also saw a tweet yesterday from an English player. He said (paraphrasing) "they talk about how the excitement in a golf tournament is back nine Sunday, but try back nine Friday when you've missed your last six cuts". I think it would be fascinating to follow a player who's around the 125 mark in the FedEx cup later in the season. Playing for their next year's privileges. Would be wonderful stuff.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 08:14:07 AM »
Thomas:


Absolutely correct.


Scott Verplank [whom I met the week he won the Western Open, as an amateur] was the first to tell me this.  He said people thought he was a long hitter because they remembered his drive on the 17th hole that week, when he was hitting the ball dead on the sweet spot and playing his best golf EVER.


The next year, I walked with Ben Crenshaw in a practice round at the Buick Open, and one of his playing partners [I can't remember who it was right now] looked at him on the tee of one of the par-3's and said "What club did you just hit there?"  Ben was hitting his irons about 15 yards farther than normal.  And he won the tournament that weekend.


So, darned near every tournament you watch, everyone you see is playing right at the peak of their games.  Oddly, Tiger is the exception.  He's on TV all of the time, so you are seeing him closer to his average!


The one tournament where this is NOT true is the Ryder Cup.  Some of the guys qualified for the team based on a hot streak they had a year ago, and they are playing like dogs when the bell rings, with all of that pressure on them.  You inevitably see some awful shots under the circumstances.  It can brand a player for life as a choker -- ask Mark Calcavecchia!

Brad Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 11:45:40 AM »



There are plenty of courses and setups that could produce a winning score of even par or higher(even without the cheap trick of coverting par 5's to par 4's)



Plenty?  There are few golf courses that can produce a winning score like that barring poor weather. A fifty year old shot six under at Kiawah.  Jason Day posted 20 under at Whistling Straits. The average winning score for the three majors played at Bethpage is five under. Bryson shot six under at Winged Foot. DJ was four under at Oakmont.


When a course is difficult enough to keep these guys around even par, many golf fans scream that the set up wasn’t fair ... which is ridiculous in my opinion.


There are certain events that are zero fun for competitors and spectators alike, played on awful courses/setups, due to organizers fixation on a certain winning score.



Not suggesting you’re wrong yet, but which courses, setups and organizers were these?


Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 11:56:28 AM »
Great point. It frustrates me to no end that "winning score" is always the focus as far as course difficulty. The winning score will be a player that is at the absolute height of their powers for the week. And this player is drawn from a subset of golfers that are at the absolute height of their powers for the season (sponsors exemptions and washed up former champions aside).
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2021, 12:21:41 PM »
Many golfers thoughts and opinions seems to be generated by what they see on TV.
But TV coverage of tournaments essentially focus’s, with an occasional exception, on the top of the leaderboard.
What’s happening through the majority of the field, and particularly at the back of the field, isn’t something we get to view on TV.
Does this cause a misconception amongst golfers? We get to view the players playing well, hitting miraculous shots, holing loads of putts etc. We don’t get to see players hitting it fat, spraying shots into the gunch, leaving bunker shots in the sand, four putting etc, yet all these happen.
Does this disparity in viewing cause a misconception amongst viewing golfers and the public?
Would it be nice to view an event from the perspective of the players at the middle and particularly the back of the field? Whilst it might not make mainstream coverage there’s surely the potential for a one-off programme or a something along the lines of a documentary?
Thoughts?
Atb


It absolutely does. It's why you watch 15 handicappers disgusted with themselves when they hit it 30 feet away from 100 yards. Lou Stagner on Twitter has lately been tweeting about the percentage of the time that Tiger hits it outside x feet from y yards away. It's quite surprisingly high generally speaking.


This incidentally is why I like watching the featured group coverage and why I was never bothered by watching TV coverage when they showed every shot Tiger hit. It's much more interesting to me to watch a player work their way around the course than it is to watch every good-great shot that gets hit by the field. I followed DJ round Shinnecock in the US Open a couple of years ago and that was fascinating. He didn't really look like he did much, but he walked off having shot about 67 I think it was. Watching coverage it feels like they're making birdies everywhere, but they're not. They make 4 or 5 a round, mostly on par fives and they make a bunch of pars.


Scoring well is really about making fewer bogeys, but you'd never guess that from watching TV golf.


Funnily enough I also saw a tweet yesterday from an English player. He said (paraphrasing) "they talk about how the excitement in a golf tournament is back nine Sunday, but try back nine Friday when you've missed your last six cuts". I think it would be fascinating to follow a player who's around the 125 mark in the FedEx cup later in the season. Playing for their next year's privileges. Would be wonderful stuff.


Nailed it.
Lou's got some good stuff
Welcome to my world.
(wait till you see the drama and choke of a club pro fighting to make a cut simply for one more day out of the asylum ;) )
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 12:25:14 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brad Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2021, 12:42:25 PM »
Great point. It frustrates me to no end that "winning score" is always the focus as far as course difficulty. The winning score will be a player that is at the absolute height of their powers for the week. And this player is drawn from a subset of golfers that are at the absolute height of their powers for the season (sponsors exemptions and washed up former champions aside).


We could have a major championship at 6800 yds with flat soft greens.  The winning score would be -32 and the best player that week would win, but would that be the best way to identify a national champion?   The USGA wants to thoroughly challenge these guys, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally as well.  The narrow fairway and deep rough tests your heart and guts as much as your ability to control a driver.  The iron shot you thought was ideal that bounces into a bunker tests your patience and attitude.  It’s not about seeing the best players struggle; it’s about weeding out the weak.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 12:45:14 PM by Brad Lawrence »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2021, 01:14:34 PM »
While what Thomas says is very true of weekend coverage of the third and fourth rounds, it often is not true of Thursday and Friday coverage of tournaments where the coverage is more likely to be of name players, even if they are not playing well. 

Same thing with early round coverage of the weekend at the majors where TV coverage often starts several hours before the leaders tee off, and you get to see the guys that just barely made the cut.  I would say that these TV misconceptions is much less today than it would have been 30 years ago when we got, at best, 2-3 hours of third and fourth round coverage, not wall-to-wall coverage on the Golf Channel and then 3-4 hours of coverage on major networks, or more like 6 hours of coverage of majors.
For example, for the US Open a week from now I see the TV listings show coverage from 9:45EDT to 22:00EDT.  That may not be all live golf but there will be more than 12 hours per day of the first two rounds and I am sure that the coverage will include guys that are struggling.  And on Saturday and Sunday there is at least 8 hours of coverage per day on NBC.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2021, 01:50:25 PM »
Yes, it skews perception a bunch, so great topic!  Some marvel at how a long hitter "only" averages 299 or 305 when they see him busting drives over 325 when in contention.  Those other weeks, when they aren't on top of their game, it is much lower, accounting for some of the averages.  Some say measuring only two drives per round affects it, but they do try to measure driving holes with reasonable width, etc. (BTW, I joked that the first sign that Rahm had covid was a drive under 320 yards......)


And, let's not forget that the perception issue is even greater at lesser events, including college golf, regional tourneys am and pro, etc., where the course needs to be set up to "protect the bottom half of the field."


TD mentions the Ryder Cup, and I recall the 1995 event, where I opted not to follow the crowds and followed at different times, either Sevy or Ben.  Sevy was all over the place, and the sound of Ben's shots was a real "clank" I would expect of a hack, so no, they weren't playing well that week.  Ben went 3-5-1 and Seve was 1-2.


The median PGA Tour drive is still in the 290's (i.e., the 100th player on a list of about 200 at least sometimes competitors.  The senior PGA Tour driving distances are about 275 on average. I once calculated the average as well, because sometimes they can be much different, but that turned out to be similar (and I'm not doing that math again)


So, design wise, I wonder how much TV affects one of the basic decisions in routing - Where to put the theoretical dog leg point as a starting point (yes, you have to adjust for wind, slope, elevation changes at some point, but for construction convenience, we usually try to keep them consistent for real golfers and every day play?


Some gca's use 300 yards/900 feet, others use 283/(850), and still, others remain at 267/ (800 feet) for regulation courses.  I know one who uses 840 feet for some reason, which is 280 yards.  It probably depends on the makeup of the course.


We know only 1% of golfers really hit it over even 283 or 267.  Actually, the most recent RA and USGA average drive by handicap puts the average drive of even A players at 258.  So, how do we best represent those back tee players when laying out a hole?


-Design for the relative few who hit it over 320?
-Design for about 300 yards (which Dr. Broadie charts as a typical A player distance at 297, not much different than the Tour)
-Design for the 280+ range, i.e., an average of PGA and Senior tour distances (i.e., 295+274/2 = 284.5) as more realistic for most courses?


Just talking back tees here for so called "championship courses" at least 7,000 or similar.  Just want to get some other takes, since the question came up.  And, given only 1% of play comes from the back tees at most courses, at least my clients would balk at building more than 1000 SF of back tee, so a long tee stretching from 280 to 350 is probably out.  (even at just 20 feet wide that is over 4,000 SF, about the same size you would devote to the middle tees where 50% of play occurs.


Will be interesting to hear opinions.  Obviously, the "right" answer will vary by course type, but if you are hesitant to chime in, I will stipulate that there really are no wrong answers, at least conceptually.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 01:54:19 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2021, 03:41:55 PM »
TV golf broadcasts are possibly responsible for the notion that bunkers are too easy. It would be interesting to compare to sand save ratios of the players who make the cut vs. the players who do not. Players who are not putting well usually have trouble converting sand saves and making cuts.   

ward peyronnin

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Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 04:13:41 PM »
One of my great golf disappointments is that I was unable to watch any of Tom Byrum's astounding performance at Bethpage Black in 2002.

His T-8 at our Open was charted over a course lengthened to the point his 240 yd driving avg barely allowed him to clear some forced carries and required him to wedge in multiple times on his third shot for one putt pars. I think he went 72-70-72-70 or something like that and what a show that would have been AND an example for us chops who grind like that day in and day out
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

JohnVDB

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Re: Back of the field and TV misconceptions
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 05:17:39 PM »
One of my great golf disappointments is that I was unable to watch any of Tom Byrum's astounding performance at Bethpage Black in 2002.

His T-8 at our Open was charted over a course lengthened to the point his 240 yd driving avg barely allowed him to clear some forced carries and required him to wedge in multiple times on his third shot for one putt pars. I think he went 72-70-72-70 or something like that and what a show that would have been AND an example for us chops who grind like that day in and day out


I was the referee with Hubert Green for the first round of the 2004 Senior Open at Bellerive.  He was coming back from cancer treatment and could barely hit it 230.  If he got it in the rough he could just wedge it out.  He shot 73 as I recall and it was amazing to watch him get around that course.  16 was playing about 230 and he hit a 3-wood to the front edge. A spectator yelled that he needed more club.  He replied, “I’ve only got one club longer than that and I’m too much of a man to hit driver on a par 3”
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 05:20:30 PM by JohnVDB »