Why I can't stand Florida golf?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I congratulate you on your achievements, unfortunately here is the approval for the permit to build on the wetlands on Immokalee and Collier.

JC,

That's not what the permit states.

It's obvious that you don't understand the approval you cited, nor do you understand the function of the South Florida Water Management Agency.

Say "Goodnight" Gracie.

[JC Jones]

I congratulate you on your achievements, unfortunately here is the approval for the permit to build on the wetlands on Immokalee and Collier.

JC,

That's not what the permit states.

It's obvious that you don't understand the approval you cited, nor do you understand the function of the South Florida Water Management Agency.

Say "Goodnight" Gracie.

I love your "I'm Pat Mucci" arguments.

What permit?  I didn't post a permit, I posted an approval of a permit that was referenced in a previous article that I posted as corroboration that a permit was granted to build housing and golf on wetlands.  Of course the Water Management District is concerned with water flow issues, which is why I posted articles referencing that issue; because you wondered how water could be diverted.

The army corps also issued a permit and based upon that permit, Collier County issued a permit.  For more info on the Army Corps permit see here:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/oct/11/army_corps_issues_permit_mirasol_golf_course/

Relevant part:

Mirasol would destroy 600 acres of wetlands

At some point you are going to have to support your arguments on this matter with something more than "I'm Pat Mucci."  I understand you may have worked with the governing agencies on the past on certain matters but that isn't going to be persuasive the face of actual proof. 

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, at this point do you feel like the waterboarder or the waterboardee?   

[JC Jones]

Jason, at this point do you feel like the waterboarder or the waterboardee?   

Well, considering I'm having fun, I guess I'd have to say the former.  I'm just hoping to be the guy who gets Pat Mucci, after 23000 posts, to say he was wrong.

[Sean Eidson]

Andy:

My point is that TPC / Sawgrass is routinely located in the top 50 in the USA -- Black Mesa doesn't even get a sniff. The issue is about visibility and one would hope the raters -- the braintrust of thinkers -- would be able to blow all the smoke and fog away from their faces and see the situation more clearly. TPC / Sawgrass has limited playability - anyone above a ten handicap is going to have major issues - and the H20 is just one part of that equation.

Matt, while I loved BM, as a 15 handicap, I found it pretty much impossible to play in the wind.  I was playing with two other guys, one a 14 and one an 11.  In the first round, the 14 didn't miss a shot and scored an 86 while the 11 had lots of trouble hitting fairways off the tee and scored 100+.  In the second round, when the wind really got going, we all had trouble matching our first round scores.

I found it to be awe-inspiring terrain and eye-opening architecture, ala Pacific Dunes.  However, I think I'd really struggle to enjoy the game if it was my home course.  It just wasn't as playable as I hoped. 

I recall a thread on BM playability that I found while researching my trip where Kalen and Garland were debating the merits of BM (with you?) for a higher handicap.  I found many of their comments rang true with me after playing there.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

The issue of wind is one that impacts any number of courses -- not just BM. If I placed you at Royal County Down or Dunluce at Portrush with the same amount of velocity that you outlined the net result would have been the same for you. People rave about links golf when the wind is blowing but if an American course has the same element then it can be panned as being unplayable or some such other thing.

Sean, I can't speak to your group and if there handicaps were true indicators of their ability -- you also didn't specific what tee boxes you played in either of the rounds there. Also, how much wind are we speaking about ?

Like I said above -- if you had the same wind velocity and played the two aforementioned courses above your scores would likely have been the same result -- yet practically no one views those two courses as being inferior or over-the-top.

Let me also point out -- BM is actually wider -- much w-i-d-e-r than either County Down or Dunluce.

Sean, if you can -- point out the wind speed and the tees played in a future post and we can dialogue further.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, at this point do you feel like the waterboarder or the waterboardee?   

Well, considering I'm having fun, I guess I'd have to say the former.  I'm just hoping to be the guy who gets Pat Mucci, after 23000 posts, to say he was wrong.

Rots of ruck!

[Norbert P]

    Why I can't stand Florida golf?

  It's too cold.



  Unless, of course, Billy McBridey's there.    Slainte'

[Andy Hughes]

I'm just hoping to be the guy who gets Pat Mucci, after 23000 posts, to say he was wrong. 

JC, please see my tag line. All it takes is some creative editing 

[JMEvensky]

Jason, at this point do you feel like the waterboarder or the waterboardee?   

Well, considering I'm having fun, I guess I'd have to say the former.  I'm just hoping to be the guy who gets Pat Mucci, after 23000 posts, to say he was wrong.

JC Jones,I'm not sure if the search function will find it,but try the word "eristic" here.It should lead you to a Mucci response which might be of some help to you.IIRC,Tom Huckaby was a participant.I think it had something to do with playing the back tee markers at ANGC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I congratulate you on your achievements, unfortunately here is the approval for the permit to build on the wetlands on Immokalee and Collier.

JC,

That's not what the permit states.

It's obvious that you don't understand the approval you cited, nor do you understand the function of the South Florida Water Management Agency, which, isn't a west coast agency as you alluded to.

Say "Goodnight" Gracie.

I love your "I'm Pat Mucci" arguments.

Like the one where you insisted that the TPC site was a swamp ?
Where you were proven wrong but refused to admit it, choosing instead to try to weasel word your way out.

I also love those "Pat Mucci" arguments like the one over the TPC site where I present the facts versus your presentation of unsubstantiated hearsay.

What permit? 
I didn't post a permit, I posted an approval of a permit that was referenced in a previous article that I posted as corroboration that a permit was granted to build housing and golf on wetlands. 

It would be helpful if you knew what you were talking about, which you don't.
The Florida Environmental Resources Permit cited in the Board minutes has nothing to do with building homes.
Why don't you go to your computer and research what an ERP is and what function it's intended to perform.
It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about and are only learning about this subject each time you search the web looking to counter my position.

Your lack of knowledge regarding the agencies and their function/s is telling

As to "Wetlands" ?
I thought you claimed that these courses were built on "SWAMPS".
Wetlands aren't swamps

Here are just some of your quotes:

"I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp."

"Many Florida golf courses are built on swamps whether Pat thinks so or not"

"I wonder if the Florida Dept of Environment guy who gives the permit for a developer to turn a swamp into a golf course couldn't have an opinion because he didn't play the golf course"

You should know that it's the county that gives the permit to build a golf course, not the state.
As I stated previously, you just don't know what you're talking about when it comes to these issues.

You indicated that you've played very few courses in Florida, yet you stated that 963 out of 999 courses are bothersome.
Upon what personal, factual basis do you make that statement ?
Also, for how long have you been a full time Florida resident ?
Is the "Naples New.com" the sole source of your information ?

Of course the Water Management District is concerned with water flow issues, which is why I posted articles referencing that issue; because you wondered how water could be diverted.

I know how water is diverted, I asked you to explain how it's diverted.
Evidently, it was another question you couldn't answer.

The army corps also issued a permit and based upon that permit, Collier County issued a permit. 
For more info on the Army Corps permit see here:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/oct/11/army_corps_issues_permit_mirasol_golf_course/

Relevant part:

Mirasol would destroy 600 acres of wetlands

That's what the Naples News and opponents of the project stated, NOT what the ACE permit stated.

The opposition to the Mirasol project was more of a water discharge and pollutant issue, rather than a habitate issue, especially if you look at the neighboring residential communities and golf course communites that border Mirasol on three sides 

At some point you are going to have to support your arguments on this matter with something more than "I'm Pat Mucci."  I understand you may have worked with the governing agencies on the past on certain matters but that isn't going to be persuasive the face of actual proof. 

The sole resource for all of your argument seems to be the Naples News.

I supported my argument on TPC and other issues, with the facts, your sole source seems to be articles from the Naples News

Let me just repeat some of your wild unsubstantiated claims:

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp.

Many Florida golf courses are built on swamps whether Pat thinks so or not. 

I wonder if the Florida Dept of Environment guy who gives the permit for a developer to turn a swamp into a golf course couldn't have an opinion because he didn't play the golf course
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For the record, you've failed to cite one course built on a swamp, let alone 963 as you seem to claim

Say goodnight Gracie

[JC Jones]

Ummm, Pat

A swamp is any wetland dominated by woody plants.

http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/types/swamp.html

I'm sure you'll try and find a way to say that just because the EPA defines a swamp as X that because Pat Mucci defines it as X that Pat Mucci is right.

Moreover, regarding the TPC a quote from an article is not unsubstantiated hearsay.  You telling me what someone else told you would be unsubstantiated hearsay, look it up.  Telling me to talk to Bob Huntley and stating adamantly that you are right does not substantiate your hearsay.

If you look at my last post, I said Collier County gave the permit to build based on the ACE permit.  Its clear you've had some experience with a golf club doing some work and needing some permits and its clear you think that experience translates to every issue you deem similar.

What is better yet is that you said the South Florida Water Management District didn't cover the west coast; yet it covers Orlando to the Keys; hence why they are even discussing and approving permits in Naples.  Then again, you say the SFWMD doesn't cover Naples so it must not. 

You claim that the Mirasol issue isn't habitat related yet a Federal Judge just struck down part of the permit based on the protection of the habitat for some bird.  Then again, you probably knew that given your intimate involvement with the project.

You've again gone back to the straw grasping of asking me to name 993 courses built on swamps when we've already been over the fact that the number was an exaggeration to spark debate.  Keep grasping though, Pat. 

[Steve Lang]

 

from FL DEP website.. just so gca folks can understand this most interesting discussion.. of Dredge and Fill under Clean Water Act Section 404 the COE or delegated authorities..

Florida wetlands are areas saturated by surface or ground water with much vegetation. Some examples of Florida wetlands include swamps, marshes, mangrove swamps and wet prairies. The Office of Submerged Lands and Environmental Resources addresses the dredging, filling and construction in wetlands. The Office also ensures that activities in uplands, wetlands or other surface waters do not degrade water quality or the habitat for wetland dependant wildlife..

What is the Environmental Resource Permit Program (ERP)?
The Environmental Resource Permit Program regulates activities involving the alteration of surface water flows. This includes new activities in uplands that generate stormwater runoff from upland construction, as well as dredging and filling in wetlands and other surface waters. Two wetlands regulatory programs exist at the state level: a dredge and fill (wetland resource) permit program (WRP) within the limits of the Northwest Water Management District and an environmental resource permit (ERP) program throughout the rest of the state.  Environmental Resource Permit applications are processed by either the Department or one of the state's water management districts, in accordance with the division of responsibilities specified in operating agreements between the Department and the water management districts. The Environmental Resource Permit Program is in effect throughout the State except for the Florida panhandle (within the limits of the Northwest Florida Water Management District).  

What is the Wetland Resource Permitting Program (WRP)?

The Wetland Resource Permit program for the Florida panhandle is implemented by the FLDEP and regulates dredging and filling in waters of the state, which generally consist of waters connected to other “named” waters, including lakes of more than ten acres in size, but excluding isolated wetlands.1 The Northwest ERP rulemaking was authorized through amendments to S. 373.4145, F.S. in the 2006 legislative session to develop rules addressing stormwater quality and quantity. Rules for the Northwest ERP stormwater program were effective October 1, 2007. Additionally, the remaining components of the comprehensive ERP program, including isolated wetlands, are currently being written and are scheduled for completion no sooner than January 2008.  

Local Program Delegation
To implement this statutory authority, the Department adopted a rule, Chapter 62-344 of the Florida Administrative Code, to guide local governments in the application process, and the criteria that will be used to approve or deny a delegation request.

Permitting Activities in conjunction with the US Army Corps of Engineers

Nationwide Permits
State Programmatic General Permit
ERP Operating Agreements with FDEP, US Army Corps of Engineers & WMDs
  
For more detailed information on permitting please go to the Summary of the Wetland and Other Surface Water Regulatory and Proprietary Programs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1It should be noted that a separate stormwater program also regulates construction of new sources of stormwater runoff throughout the panhandle. See FL. ADMIN. CODE § 62-25.

[JC Jones]

Steve,

I don't care what the facts are, have you played golf at Seminole?  Have you worked with the SFWMD in relation to a golf course?  If not, then you wouldn't know the difference between a swamp and a wetland.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ummm, Pat

A swamp is any wetland dominated by woody plants.

http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/types/swamp.html

I'm sure you'll try and find a way to say that just because the EPA defines a swamp as X that because Pat Mucci defines it as X that Pat Mucci is right.

I cited Webster's Dictionary, and I informed you of that.
Why would you lie and state that I used my own definition ?
Then, you cited the USGS definition, which clearly distinguishes a "swamp" from a "wetland".  Evidently your source definition, from the USGS undermines and defeats your position, so now you're attempting to reject your OWN definition and substitute another.
How convenient  

Moreover, regarding the TPC a quote from an article is not unsubstantiated hearsay.  You telling me what someone else told you would be unsubstantiated hearsay, look it up.  Telling me to talk to Bob Huntley and stating adamantly that you are right does not substantiate your hearsay.

I didn't cite a vague "someone else" as you falsely claim.  I cited the owner of the TPC property.
You cited a random article in the Naples News.
You're delusional if you think that your source is more reliable  

If you look at my last post, I said Collier County gave the permit to build based on the ACE permit.  Its clear you've had some experience with a golf club doing some work and needing some permits and its clear you think that experience translates to every issue you deem similar.

Not at all, that's your rationale

What is better yet is that you said the South Florida Water Management District didn't cover the west coast; yet it covers Orlando to the Keys; hence why they are even discussing and approving permits in Naples.  Then again, you say the SFWMD doesn't cover Naples so it must not. 

You're wrong again.  Something you seem to make a habit of.
That's NOT what I stated.  You need to bone up on your reading comprehesnion skills.
You were the one who implied that the South Florida Water Management agency was solely repsonsible for the west coast,  the South Florida Water Management is responsible for South Florida, including BOTH the east and west coast, not JUST the west coast as you implied.
Please get your facts right..... for once.   And, if you're going to quote me, get the citation right, not in some convoluted form you create to suit your own needs

You claim that the Mirasol issue isn't habitat related yet a Federal Judge just struck down part of the permit based on the protection of the habitat for some bird.  Then again, you probably knew that given your intimate involvement with the project.

I NEVER said it wasn't habitate related, what I said was that the PRIMARY objections took the form of Water Discharge and Pollutant issues.  Here's my quote:
"The opposition to the Mirasol project was MORE of a water discharge and pollutant issue, rather than a habitat issue",

Please get your facts right.
Your reading comprehension skills are terrible.  If they're not, then you're deliberately attempting to misquote me.
Without running and looking it up, Do you even know what the USACE does ?
It's primarily a water management agency.


You've again gone back to the straw grasping of asking me to name 993 courses built on swamps when we've already been over the fact that the number was an exaggeration to spark debate.  Keep grasping though, Pat. 

If anything is grasping it's the evidenced based noose around your neck.
Either that or the latest edition of the Naples News
Name 50 or just 10 courses built on a swamp

You've avoided answering my questions....... again.

I realize that they compromise your position, but, could you tell us, for how long have you been a full time Florida resident ?

Thanks

[JC Jones]

Ummm, Pat

A swamp is any wetland dominated by woody plants.

http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/types/swamp.html

I'm sure you'll try and find a way to say that just because the EPA defines a swamp as X that because Pat Mucci defines it as X that Pat Mucci is right.

I cited Webster's Dictionary, and I informed you of that.
Why would you lie and state that I used my own definition ?
Then, you cited the USGS definition, which clearly distinguishes a "swamp" from a "wetland".  Evidently your source definition, from the USGS undermines and defeats your position, so now you're attempting to reject your OWN definition and substitute another.
How convenient 

Pat, did you read the USGS definitions?  A swamp fits within the definition of a wetland.  Then you asked to use the State agency definition.  Steve just posted that and it proved your wrong, again.  Just admit that a swamp is a wetland, you'll feel better.

Moreover, regarding the TPC a quote from an article is not unsubstantiated hearsay.  You telling me what someone else told you would be unsubstantiated hearsay, look it up.  Telling me to talk to Bob Huntley and stating adamantly that you are right does not substantiate your hearsay.

I didn't cite a vague "someone else" as you falsely claim.  I cited the owner of the TPC property.
You cited a random article in the Naples News.
You're delusional if you think that your source is more reliable 

Firstly, I didn't cite an article from the Naples News for the Pete Dye quote.  Get your facts straight.  Secondly, your use of what the former owner of the TPC property told you is unsubstantiated hearsay.  Look up what unsubstantiated means and then look up what hearsay is.  Feel free to use Websters or Blacks Legal Dictionary.

If you look at my last post, I said Collier County gave the permit to build based on the ACE permit.  Its clear you've had some experience with a golf club doing some work and needing some permits and its clear you think that experience translates to every issue you deem similar.

Not at all, that's your rationale

Umm, no Pat.  It's not.  I've not claimed expertise on these matters based upon work with various state and federal agencies like you have, repeatedly.  Nice try.

What is better yet is that you said the South Florida Water Management District didn't cover the west coast; yet it covers Orlando to the Keys; hence why they are even discussing and approving permits in Naples.  Then again, you say the SFWMD doesn't cover Naples so it must not. 

You're wrong again.  Something you seem to make a habit of.
That's NOT what I stated.  You need to bone up on your reading comprehesnion skills.
You were the one who implied that the South Florida Water Management agency was solely repsonsible for the west coast,  the South Florida Water Management is responsible for South Florida, including BOTH the east and west coast, not JUST the west coast as you implied.
Please get your facts right..... for once.   And, if you're going to quote me, get the citation right, not in some convoluted form you create to suit your own needs

Point to where I made that implication.  You won't because you can't. 

You claim that the Mirasol issue isn't habitat related yet a Federal Judge just struck down part of the permit based on the protection of the habitat for some bird.  Then again, you probably knew that given your intimate involvement with the project.

I NEVER said it wasn't habitate related, what I said was that the PRIMARY objections took the form of Water Discharge and Pollutant issues.  Here's my quote:
"The opposition to the Mirasol project was MORE of a water discharge and pollutant issue, rather than a habitat issue",

Please get your facts right.
Your reading comprehension skills are terrible.  If they're not, then you're deliberately attempting to misquote me.
Without running and looking it up, Do you even know what the USACE does ?
It's primarily a water management agency.


You've again gone back to the straw grasping of asking me to name 993 courses built on swamps when we've already been over the fact that the number was an exaggeration to spark debate.  Keep grasping though, Pat. 

If anything is grasping it's the evidenced based noose around your neck.

Point to your evidence.  Point to your citations.  Point to anything other than "I'm Pat Mucci" arguments.

Either that or the latest edition of the Naples News
Name 50 or just 10 courses built on a swamp

I can't, there are no swamps in Florida.  Only wetlands.

You've avoided answering my questions....... again.

I realize that they compromise your position, but, could you tell us, for how long have you been a full time Florida resident ?

Thanks

6 months.  Unfortunately your irrelevant questioning in attempt to obfuscate is as obvious as your southeast Florida myopia.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ummm, Pat

A swamp is any wetland dominated by woody plants.

http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/types/swamp.html

I'm sure you'll try and find a way to say that just because the EPA defines a swamp as X that because Pat Mucci defines it as X that Pat Mucci is right.

I cited Webster's Dictionary, and I informed you of that.
Why would you lie and state that I used my own definition ?
Then, you cited the USGS definition, which clearly distinguishes a "swamp" from a "wetland".  Evidently your source definition, from the USGS undermines and defeats your position, so now you're attempting to reject your OWN definition and substitute another.
How convenient 

Pat, did you read the USGS definitions?YES, and they're quite DISTINCT

A swamp fits within the definition of a wetland. 

But, a Wetland DOESN'T fit the definition of a SWAMP, and you said that most of the courses in Florida were built on a SWAMP.  In fact you made that statement repeatedly.

Then you asked to use the State agency definition. 

No I didn't.  That's another fabrication on your part, and a clear indication that your reading comprehension skills are lacking.  I asked, making a jibe, why NOT use the State DEP definition, which everyone but you knows is a more stringent definition

Steve just posted that and it proved your wrong, again. 

Steve posted the EPA definition, which has morphed considerably over the years to suit their agenda, just ask anyone who's dealt with the EPA over the last few decades.  This is just another indication that you don't know what you're talking about, and that you're trying desperately to change your original position to save face.  Admit it, you were wrong, most of the courses in Florida were NOT built on swamps as you claimed, over and over again. 

Just admit that a swamp is a wetland, you'll feel better.

That was never the issue. 
And now you've become so desperate that you're being intellectually dishonest.
A wetland is NOT a SWAMP, which is what you claimed the courses in Florida were built on.
You were and continue to be wrong.
Oh, that's right, you said you were "exaggerating".  That's OK, just admit that you were wrong and that most of the golf courses in Florida were NOT built on swamps.

Webster's dictionary's definition is what "people" accept as the definition of a swamp.
As to the EPA's changing definitions, perhaps you've never heard of the relevance of the definition of a waterway, and a popsicle stick

Moreover, regarding the TPC a quote from an article is not unsubstantiated hearsay.  You telling me what someone else told you would be unsubstantiated hearsay, look it up.  Telling me to talk to Bob Huntley and stating adamantly that you are right does not substantiate your hearsay.

I didn't cite a vague "someone else" as you falsely claim.  I cited the owner of the TPC property.
You cited a random article in the Naples News.
You're delusional if you think that your source is more reliable 

Firstly, I didn't cite an article from the Naples News for the Pete Dye quote.  Get your facts straight.  Secondly, your use of what the former owner of the TPC property told you is unsubstantiated hearsay.  Look up what unsubstantiated means and then look up what hearsay is.  Feel free to use Websters or Blacks Legal Dictionary.

Unlike others, in desperate attempts to prove their point I won't distort the truth.
My source is not unsubstantiated, he was the owner of record.  The public deeds reflect that.
The public records also confirm the commercial and residential zoning of the property.
They DON'T zone SWAMPS for commercial and residential use.
Just admit that you were wrong, again.
Or, if you insist with your bogus claim, let's engage in a wager to see who's right and who's wrong on this issue.
Name your price.  Get Steve Lang, JMEvansky and others and form a syndicate.  I'll take all the action you can come up with .

If you look at my last post, I said Collier County gave the permit to build based on the ACE permit.  Its clear you've had some experience with a golf club doing some work and needing some permits and its clear you think that experience translates to every issue you deem similar.

Not at all, that's your rationale

Umm, no Pat.  It's not.  I've not claimed expertise on these matters based upon work with various state and federal agencies like you have, repeatedly.  Nice try.

Could you cite where I claimed "expertise", or, is that just another fabrication on your part ?

What is better yet is that you said the South Florida Water Management District didn't cover the west coast; yet it covers Orlando to the Keys; hence why they are even discussing and approving permits in Naples.  Then again, you say the SFWMD doesn't cover Naples so it must not. 

You're wrong again.  Something you seem to make a habit of.
That's NOT what I stated.  You need to bone up on your reading comprehesnion skills.
You were the one who implied that the South Florida Water Management agency was solely repsonsible for the west coast,  the South Florida Water Management is responsible for South Florida, including BOTH the east and west coast, not JUST the west coast as you implied.
Please get your facts right..... for once.   And, if you're going to quote me, get the citation right, not in some convoluted form you create to suit your own needs

Point to where I made that implication.  You won't because you can't. 

I can and I will.
You indicated on several occassions that things were done differently on the Southeast coast of Florida versus the Southwest coast, when the exact same agency has jurisdiction over both coasts and more.  Something you were completely unaware of.
The last line in your most recent post alludes to a Southeastern Florida myopia, a clear indication that you weren't aware that the same Federal, State and South Florida Water Management regulations apply to both the East and West Coast of Southern Florida

You claim that the Mirasol issue isn't habitat related yet a Federal Judge just struck down part of the permit based on the protection of the habitat for some bird.  Then again, you probably knew that given your intimate involvement with the project.

I NEVER said it wasn't habitate related, what I said was that the PRIMARY objections took the form of Water Discharge and Pollutant issues.  Here's my quote:
"The opposition to the Mirasol project was MORE of a water discharge and pollutant issue, rather than a habitat issue",

Please get your facts right.
Your reading comprehension skills are terrible.  If they're not, then you're deliberately attempting to misquote me.
Without running and looking it up, Do you even know what the USACE does ?
It's primarily a water management agency.


You've again gone back to the straw grasping of asking me to name 993 courses built on swamps when we've already been over the fact that the number was an exaggeration to spark debate.  Keep grasping though, Pat. 

If anything is grasping it's the evidenced based noose around your neck.

Point to your evidence.  Point to your citations.  Point to anything other than "I'm Pat Mucci" arguments.

I've done that time and time again.
But, the burden of proof is on you.
You said that most of the courses in Florida were built on SWAMPS, yet, you haven't produced one shred of evidence to support that claim.

I've asked you to provide evidence to support your claim and you cited some article allegedly quoting Pete Dye.
I provided information that refutes your citation.
Then you claimed that I stated that The Medalist was built on a swamp, another fabrication on your part that was proven wrong.
To date, you haven't provided any proof that 963 courses, 50 courses or 10 courses were built on swamps.
Knowing that you can't prove that foolish claim, you disengenuously tried to substitute wetlands for swamps, and we know that a wetland isn't a swamp, by your own sourced definition, the USGS.

So please, provide the information that supports that 963 courses or most golf courses in Florida were built on swamps, which is what you claimed, over and over and over again.   The burden of proof lies with you, not me.



Either that or the latest edition of the Naples News
Name 50 or just 10 courses built on a swamp

I can't, there are no swamps in Florida.  Only wetlands.

FINALLY.

If only you could have admitted that in the begining you would have saved me hours of typing, but, some good things came of this.
And, you're still invitted to play Pine Tree and have a beer afterwards.

You've avoided answering my questions....... again.

I realize that they compromise your position, but, could you tell us, for how long have you been a full time Florida resident ?

Thanks

6 months. 
Unfortunately your irrelevant questioning in attempt to obfuscate is as obvious as your southeast Florida myopia.

Don't worry, when you frequent a place long enough, you'll develop your own myopias

[Matt_Ward]

If I can change the subject just a tad --

does anyone know how The Ravines (located in Middleburg) is doing ?

ditto the qualities of Golden Ocala?

I have played them both a few times -- but from years ago.

The Ravines was clearly very different and the elevation changes - especially when playing the 9th hole there with Black Creek on your right was quite entertaining. The main weak link was the overly narrow corridors.

[Steve Lang]

  What ever happened to Grenelefe?  How does the Black Diamond Quarry stack up these days?


JC,  No I've never played indian  , but I've delineated things before and you're potentially gonna be called an obligate specie on some of this legal-beagle-viral-logic-word-parsing.. .. and no, never dealt with them FL folks on this type issue.. and i hope i never have to.. they appear crazier that those in CA.. and environmental permitting is a blood sport there!

PM, FWIW.. my "court observer" posting was entirely from FL DEP website..

Federal and state definitions have shifted over the years and never have been fully aligned within or between the various authorities.. hell, I've created wetlands under my feet by jumping up and down    or was it just casual water?  

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Grenelefe from what I can recall was sold not too long ago and I have to congratulate the facility from years ago when they were so smart in creating such a buzz about the place -- if memory serves, Grenelefe / West was rated among the best courses years ago -- Digest had it in its top 100 too if I am correct.

I was never really impressed with the layout -- more long than anything else.

There was talk that the Palmer group would come in and bring back the layout but maybe someone can update that here.

[JC Jones]

Sir Mucci,

Your response above makes me seriously question your ability to comprehend what you are reading.  You can't possibly be arguing that swamps are not wetlands; at least not seriously, so I will assume you are doing so as to not give ground on your position.

Since you probably didn't look it up, here is Webster's dictionary definition of a swamp:

1 : a wetland often partially or intermittently covered with water; especially : one dominated by woody vegetation

Goodnight gracie

I never indicated things were done differently on the east and west coasts in relation to the SFWMD.  I said they had distinct terrains which meant your experiences on the east side did not translate to how things are done on the west side.  That had absolutely nothing to do with the jurisdiction of the SFWMD. 

Telling me who your source is, repeatedly, does not substantiate the hearsay.  Again, try websters.

Why would I want to save you hours of typing?  Im having too much fun

I look forward to our round and our beer; but I assure you I will enjoy the discourse more than the course and that would be the same no matter where we played.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sir Mucci,

Your response above makes me seriously question your ability to comprehend what you are reading.  You can't possibly be arguing that swamps are not wetlands; at least not seriously, so I will assume you are doing so as to not give ground on your position.


JC, Have someone read my postings to you as you clearly don't understand them.

ALL "Swamps" qualify as "Wetlands", BUT, ALL "Wetlands" don't qualify as "Swamps"

As to that distinction, which is quite pronounced, just look at the definition you posted vis a vis the USGS

Since you probably didn't look it up, here is Webster's dictionary definition of a swamp:

1 : a wetland often partially or intermittently covered with water; especially : one dominated by woody vegetation

SWAMP: a piece of wet, spongy land that is permanently or periodically covered with water, characterized by growths of shrubs and trees; marsh; bog

Would you name 10 courses that were built on wet, spongy land that was under water ?

Goodnight gracie

I never indicated things were done differently on the east and west coasts in relation to the SFWMD. 
I said they had distinct terrains which meant your experiences on the east side did not translate to how things are done on the west side.  That had absolutely nothing to do with the jurisdiction of the SFWMD. 

What's distinct about them ?

THINGS can't be done differently because the regulations are universal throughout the jurisdiction of the SFWMD, and not applied independently and seperately depending upon which side of Florida they're being applied to.

Telling me who your source is, repeatedly, does not substantiate the hearsay.  Again, try websters.

My source is THE ULTIMATE source, the owner and developer of the property, supported by the public records with respect to deeds and zoning, whereas your source is an aritcle allegedly quoting Pete Dye.  You don't even know if the author of your article actually spoke to Pete Dye or was merely quoting or paraphrasing yet another article.  I've had direct conversations with THE source, have you had direct conversations with the author or Pete Dye ?

Why would I want to save you hours of typing?  Im having too much fun

Ditto, but, I must admit, your learning curve is far more gradual than that idiot savant's, TEPaul

I look forward to our round and our beer; but I assure you I will enjoy the discourse more than the course and that would be the same no matter where we played.

Do you remember the movie, "Michael" ?

I too, love "battle"

[Matt_Ward]

Just wanted to find out -- asked previously -- if anyone has played The Ravines in Middleburg or Golden Ocala recently and what type of shape were they in ?

I liked certain dimensions of The Ravines -- but the extreme narrow corridors would make it a tough day for most high handicap types. The par-5 9th there has got be one of the coolest par-5's in all of FL.

[Roger Wolfe]

Matt,

We used to take an annual trip to Florida in the Boca area.  Every year we would plot
out our matches for AM and PM.  At least one day during the trip for about 5 years the wind
and glare would get so bad we voted to play scramble and drink beer in the afternoon because
it was so miserable.  These aren't the fancy privates... Polo Trace, Emerald Dunes, Binks Forest
come to mind.  A trip to Sawgrass in 2000 was a lot better.  The wind seems to not be so BIG
in Northern FL.

But your post is right on time !!  Buggy... Blinding... Windy... Muggy... Sandy....  The only reason
to CHOOSE to play down there is because the weather sucks up North.

[jeffwarne]

Matt:

Dave Harman designed the two courses at Orange County, although Isao Aoki and Phil Ritson also get a credit.  Harman's Magnolia Plantation is about as awful as I've seen anywhere, but I've heard great things about Kauri Cliffs.

Both are about 7400 yards.  You can get all the info you want on the Orange County National website.  I posted their website's comment about it having 18 signature holes last week!

Doug is right about Vickie Hills, the best course named for an adult film star anywhere.  I have it #1 in O-town.

Here's your list of our best:

Victoria Hills
Southern Dunes
Mystic Dunes
Watson course at Reunion (if you can count this)
Mission Inn - El Campeon - (most difficult from back tees by far)
Grand Cypress N/S/E
Isleworth
Panther Lake
Osprey Ridge
and possibly the International at Champions Gate (depending on your taste)

The Legends at Orange Lake misses by a shade and embodies that real estate look you don't like.

My overrateds go to Disney's Magnolia, Bay Hill, Lake Nona, the New at Grand Cypress, and LPGA's or Falcon's Fire's courses designed by Rees Jones.

The true strength of Orlando is when you go "off the beaten path" with lesser expecations and lower green fees and play some of our other courses.  I'd suggest Highlands Reserve, Eagle Dunes (a dose of Sand Hills near Black Bear), Harbor Hills, North Shore, Deltona Hills, the Diamond Player's Club in Clermont, Errol Estate, Palisades, Rock Springs Ridge, Sugar Mill, the Arthur Hills courses at LPGA or Cypress Head, Swiss Fairways, Green Valley, or Forest Lake.  

And Matt, please don't take the sample of Orlando courses as indicative of all of Florida.  If you were coming down for the golf I would send you to one of the best affordable public-access swings in North America by catching Lake Jovita, Rolling Oaks and Pine Barrens at World Woods, the Dunes at Seville, and El Diablo.  Toss in privates Black Diamond Ranch's Quarry, the CC of Ocala, and Golden Ocala and it is pretty impressive "golf per (lack of) population".  There are a few courses in these parts that I have not yet seen and are on my wish list.  Off the top of my head, Twisted Oak in Beverly Hills, Rainbow Springs, and a couple others including the UF course.

That time of year again (PGA Show)
Given John's choices...

Day 1-18 holes off the plane -----Eagle Dunes or Diamond Players Club (called Sanctuary Ridge? now)

Day 2-36 holes  Golden Hills,  El Diablo, Golden Ocala ,Juliette Falls or Ocala Golf Club (the muni)
kind've leaning toward El Diablo and the muni as we're 8 players who may get a bit muni late in the day but am open to suggestion and/or updates (Juliette Falls, Golden Ocala's, and Golden Hill's websites gave me chills-why do people think we want to see knickers and the word spa?)

day 3-36 Deltona Hills and Victoria Hills (done deal)