Why I can't stand Florida golf?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

How were playing conditions in NJ in April, May and June of 2009 ?

The same spongey conditions you attribute to Florida golf in the summer ?

It rains almost every afternoon in South Florida in the summer, what would you expect in terms of playing conditions ?

But, from November to June, golf in Florida sure beats golf in NJ

[JC Jones]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run, etc. etc. etc.  In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation, etc., etc., etc.

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp.  Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run, etc. etc. etc. 

In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation, etc., etc., etc.

Have you played these courses ?

If not, in what context would you evaluate my answer ?

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp. 

Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?

I've never taken a poll to determine what people think about when people think about golf courses in Florida.

I think it's probably a function of their location.

I doubt that people in Lake Wales context golf courses as golf courses built out of swamps

I think the same it probably true of those east of the Turnpike in Palm Beach County and south, and maybe even Martin County.

Those west of the Turnpike probably think about swamps, although golf west of the Turnpike is a more recent occurance

[JC Jones]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run, etc. etc. etc. 

In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation, etc., etc., etc.

Have you played these courses ?

Many, not all.

If not, in what context would you evaluate my answer ?

They arent resort courses; which was the qualifier you put on the response

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp. 

Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?

I've never taken a poll to determine what people think about when people think about golf courses in Florida.

  This gives more perspective than anything.  You dont want your southeast courses lumped in with the rest of Florida   

I think it's probably a function of their location.

I doubt that people in Lake Wales context golf courses as golf courses built out of swamps

I think the same it probably true of those east of the Turnpike in Palm Beach County and south, and maybe even Martin County.

Those west of the Turnpike probably think about swamps, although golf west of the Turnpike is a more recent occurance

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run, etc. etc. etc. 

In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation, etc., etc., etc.

Have you played these courses ?

Many, not all.

If not, in what context would you evaluate my answer ?

They arent resort courses; which was the qualifier you put on the response

But, you haven't played Seminole, Pine Tree, Boca Rio, Doral and others I mentioned, so how would you context my response ?

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp. 

Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?

I've never taken a poll to determine what people think about when people think about golf courses in Florida.

  This gives more perspective than anything.  You dont want your southeast courses lumped in with the rest of Florida   

I think it's probably a function of their location.

I doubt that people in Lake Wales context golf courses as golf courses built out of swamps

I think the same it probably true of those east of the Turnpike in Palm Beach County and south, and maybe even Martin County.

Those west of the Turnpike probably think about swamps, although golf west of the Turnpike is a more recent occurance

[JC Jones]

Context your response?  I was just answering within the parameters you set.

I have repeatedly excluded Seminole et al. from my description of Florida golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I never said FL doesn't serve a purpose -- when you, I and others are freezing here there's no doubt it's better to have some golf than known at all.

I just opined that when one evaluates golf course design that the overall nature of what is there in FL is really not stellar. Oh, yes, there are a few exceptions to that but as I pointed out other areas of the USA which have some fantastic land have added their names to the listing -- places like Ballyneal, Black Mesa, Kingsley, Black Mesa, etc, etc -- the bar has risen for sure when nationwide elements are lumped into the picture.

Pat, NJ can certainly be wet -- but the nature of our terrain, the sheer greatness of the contributions made -- especially on the private side are far beyond what you see in FL. No doubt there are a few notable exceptios in FL -- but minus the likes of TPC / Sawgrass and Seminole -- I don't see any FL course really making a grand statement that it could jump into Jersey's top ten.

I do want to add that a few of the ones John C and Mike S mentioned I have not played and I will certainly be interested to see what they offer when I attend the upcoming PGA Show later this month.

Mike S:

Wrong amigo -- I enjoy a number of FL courses but frankly the state is more about mass quantity than anything else. There are a few exceptions but as you asked before -- NJ would not be impacted the least. Can't say the same for CT though.

[jeffwarne]

Any comments on Palma Ceia GC , Dunedin CC, Belleair CC(36), Bellevue Biltmore, Clearwater CC, Temple Terrace in the Tampa/Clearwater area?
A pretty amazing array of ODG's in that area (Bendelow,Strong, Ross)
amazing how unillustrative most American websites are compared to the ones in the UK/Ireland.

[Sean_A]

Matt, right now it's -9 fahrenheit, we have 2 feet of snow, and I'm this close to booking World Woods in Feb.  Really could be a dog track, and I'd be happy to go.     In the CG, Tom D. puts Pine Barrens as an 8, and obviously for him, that says a lot.  I know that was 13 years ago, but would his scale change today?  The CG is a bit confusing, IMHO, with respect to Fla.  Obviously, it's "flatness" does not impress Tom D., in fact he says, "Fla., has 1,000 courses, I'll take Seminole, you can take the rest."  He is not impressed with the state but he then goes on to give Pine Barrens an 8.  In the CG, that is very high praise.  In his "Best Courses you can Play" he only has one 10, No. 2, two 9's, Pebble Beach and Casa, and Pine Barrens is one of 5 8's.  High praise, indeed.  Anyway, has TD ever explaiined that?

If we do go, I'll be excited to play PB and probably the Oaks course, as well.  I think we'll probably mix in Dunes at Seville.  In any event, with the wether we have right now, I think Fla. golf with be awesome.  TW

The weather doesnt make the architecture better.  Trust me.

JCJ

Of course the architecture doesn't change, but being able to play all year round has to count for something if a guy wants to play 12 months a year.  Well, its worth a few points in my book anyway.  A course shut down for weather isn't much good for a guy who wants to play. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

[
Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like[/size][/color]

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run, etc. etc. etc.  In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation, etc., etc., etc.

I've come to the conclusion that you just don't know what you're talking about and that you don't know the difference between native scrub areas and swamp areas.

Let's start with one of the courses you named in Naples, The Hole In The Wall course.
Have you ever played it ?
It doesn't now, and never has been a swamp.
So how did you come to determine that the course was built on a swamp ?

Most, if not ALL the courses you cited, were NOT built on swamps.

And, aren't most of those courses you listed, courses within or associated with residential communities ?

Didn't I previously state that you can't compare private courses to residential community courses and resort courses because they serve different purposes ?  Weren't you paying attention ?

I think you'll find that most of those courses you mention were built on farmlands and native scrub areas, not swamp.
And, as far as the QUARRY goes, they didn't name it The Quarry, because it was built on a swamp, it was built on an old Limestone Quarry.  If you had any common sense you would have figured that out.

Please get your facts right before you make wild, inaccurate generalizations, at least that way you'll reduce the number of erroneous posts you make



I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp. 



Which PRIVATE courses were built out of a swamp ?
So far, none that you've cited.
Just because a course borders a marsh or river doesn't mean it was bullt on a swamp.
Do some research BEFORE you type

Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?

When talking about PRIVATE courses they think about Seminole not the unnamed courses you originally alluded to.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I think it's safe to say that golf follows heavily populated areas, ergo the abundance of golf courses in the Met area.

Florida has pockets of populated areas, and those areas have their share of good golf courses, most of them older.
When a segment of the heavily populated areas in the Met area decided to winter in Florida, golf followed, at resorts and residential communities, but, I don't think those wintering or vacationing in Florida were looking for the severe tests they left behind in the north.

Those migrating to Florida, seasonally or on vacation, tended to be the older segment of the membership, not young bucks looking and yearning for a back breaking challenge.  In addition, I'd venture a guess that with all that time on their hands, more and more womaen began to play golf at those resorts and residential courses, hence, a less challenging design was prefered.

However, when you segregate resort and residential clubs from private clubs in Florida, I think the courses at the private clubs are a notch, or two or three above the courses found at resort and residential communities.  Doral might have been THE exception.


Hence, I think you have to make the comparison on a private club to private club comparison.
And, you have to consider the population densities of the areas considered

[Mike Sweeney]

Any comments on Palma Ceia GC , Dunedin CC, Belleair CC(36), Bellevue Biltmore, Clearwater CC, Temple Terrace in the Tampa/Clearwater area?
A pretty amazing array of ODG's in that area (Bendelow,Strong, Ross)
amazing how unillustrative most American websites are compared to the ones in the UK/Ireland.

Jeff,

Can you fill us in? The best of the bunch. Interested to see another Strong course at Clearwater.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Of the courses you cited, listed below, which ones have you played ?

Naples National, The Quarry, Grey Oaks, Old Collier, Hole In the Wall, Quail Run. 
In Orlando, Lake Nona, Isleworth, Alaqua Lakes, Heathrow, Magnolia Plantation.

[JC Jones]

I've come to the conclusion that you just don't know what you're talking about and that you don't know the difference between native scrub areas and swamp areas.

Let's start with one of the courses you named in Naples, The Hole In The Wall course.
Have you ever played it ?
It doesn't now, and never has been a swamp.
So how did you come to determine that the course was built on a swamp ?

Most, if not ALL the courses you cited, were NOT built on swamps.

And, aren't most of those courses you listed, courses within or associated with residential communities ?

Didn't I previously state that you can't compare private courses to residential community courses and resort courses because they serve different purposes ?  Weren't you paying attention ?

I think you'll find that most of those courses you mention were built on farmlands and native scrub areas, not swamp.
And, as far as the QUARRY goes, they didn't name it The Quarry, because it was built on a swamp, it was built on an old Limestone Quarry.  If you had any common sense you would have figured that out.

Please get your facts right before you make wild, inaccurate generalizations, at least that way you'll reduce the number of erroneous posts you make

[/b][/size][/color]



Which PRIVATE courses were built out of a swamp ?
So far, none that you've cited.
Just because a course borders a marsh or river doesn't mean it was bullt on a swamp.
Do some research BEFORE you type

When talking about PRIVATE courses they think about Seminole not the unnamed courses you originally alluded to.
[/quote]

Sometimes I wonder if you are having a conversation with me or with a strawman.  Pat, let me introduce a little bit of reality into Mucci's fantasy world.

In Naples, everything west of US-41 and including US-41 was a swamp.  From the Collier county drainage district website:

State Road 29 and U.S.-41 where constructed in Collier County in 1926 and 1928 respectively, by excavating a canal and using the excavated material to build a road above the surrounding water level. This process was repeated during ensuing years to produce a haphazard series of canals for logging trams. This “ditch and drain” method picked up speed with ditches dug to drain land for agriculture and drain wetlands for mosquito control. By the early 1960’s residential projects had been built by excavating canals to lower the water table and raise the ground elevation of houses.

So, Pat, I've come to the conclusion that you have no idea what you are talking about and are suffering from Palm Beach Myopia.  Do some research BEFORE you type.

By the way have YOU played the Quarry?  I have and had you have played the Quarry you would know that there are 3 holes on the course where the quarry used to be and the rest, um, you guessed it, swamp.  What was that again about doing research before you type?

Pat, regardless of what you think, private courses aren't built with different bulldozers and on different land than the residential community that is right next door.  Do you think that the Quarry, because it is residential, was built on a swamp yet the land for Calusa Pines across the street was somehow different?  In Mucci's fantasy world is that how it works?  The private courses are all built on sandy soil perfect for golf and the residential courses next door are on swamp or other land not suitable for the game?

Pat, maybe in Palm Beach they think about Seminole but since very very few people have had the honor to play it and very very few people even know what it is let alone what it looks like, my guess is that when they think Florida private, they think Florida golf and people don't think Seminole when they think Florida Golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've come to the conclusion that you just don't know what you're talking about and that you don't know the difference between native scrub areas and swamp areas.

Let's start with one of the courses you named in Naples, The Hole In The Wall course.
Have you ever played it ?
It doesn't now, and never has been a swamp.
So how did you come to determine that the course was built on a swamp ?

Most, if not ALL the courses you cited, were NOT built on swamps.

And, aren't most of those courses you listed, courses within or associated with residential communities ?

Didn't I previously state that you can't compare private courses to residential community courses and resort courses because they serve different purposes ?  Weren't you paying attention ?

I think you'll find that most of those courses you mention were built on farmlands and native scrub areas, not swamp.
And, as far as the QUARRY goes, they didn't name it The Quarry, because it was built on a swamp, it was built on an old Limestone Quarry.  If you had any common sense you would have figured that out.

Please get your facts right before you make wild, inaccurate generalizations, at least that way you'll reduce the number of erroneous posts you make

[/b][/size][/color]



Which PRIVATE courses were built out of a swamp ?
So far, none that you've cited.
Just because a course borders a marsh or river doesn't mean it was bullt on a swamp.
Do some research BEFORE you type

When talking about PRIVATE courses they think about Seminole not the unnamed courses you originally alluded to.

Sometimes I wonder if you are having a conversation with me or with a strawman. 
Pat, let me introduce a little bit of reality into Mucci's fantasy world.

In Naples, everything west of US-41 and including US-41 was a swamp. 


How did a limestone quarry come into existance if everything east of 41 was a swamp ?  ?  ?

How long ago was it a swamp, 1,000,000 years ?  Did you know that before that it was an ocean ?
Secondly, answer the question I asked you, of the clubs you cited, which ones have you played ?

From the Collier county drainage district website:

State Road 29 and U.S.-41 where constructed in Collier County in 1926 and 1928 respectively, by excavating a canal and using the excavated material to build a road above the surrounding water level. This process was repeated during ensuing years to produce a haphazard series of canals for logging trams. This “ditch and drain” method picked up speed with ditches dug to drain land for agriculture and drain wetlands for mosquito control. By the early 1960’s residential projects had been built by excavating canals to lower the water table and raise the ground elevation of houses.

Did it ever occur to you that the reference above is to the water TABLE ?
There's not enough dirt in the State of Floirda to cover, to depth of 4 feet or more, the areas you allude to.
The ditch and drain method served numerous purposes in South Florida.
By the time the golf courses you cited were built, those lands were, long ago, farmlands and/or native scrub, they weren't swamps.

In case you didn't know it, you CAN'T build a golf course on a swamp in Florida, for a number of reasons, municipal, county, state and federal

So, Pat, I've come to the conclusion that you have no idea what you are talking about and are suffering from Palm Beach Myopia. 
Do some research BEFORE you type.

I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about geological conditions in south Florida

By the way have YOU played the Quarry?  I have and had you have played the Quarry you would know that there are 3 holes on the course where the quarry used to be and the rest, um, you guessed it, swamp.  What was that again about doing research before you type?

I thought you said that everything East of 41 was a swamp ?  How is it that there's a quarry in the middle of a swamp ?

Why don't you tell us how they built The Quarry golf course on a swamp, especially since the Florida DEP prohibited such activity in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

Pat, regardless of what you think, private courses aren't built with different bulldozers and on different land than the residential community that is right next door.  Do you think that the Quarry, because it is residential, was built on a swamp yet the land for Calusa Pines across the street was somehow different?  In Mucci's fantasy world is that how it works?  The private courses are all built on sandy soil perfect for golf and the residential courses next door are on swamp or other land not suitable for the game?

So you're telling us that  all those residents who paid hundreds of thousands, and millons of dollars for a home, spent that money on a house built on a swamp ?

Did I sum up your position correctly ?

Are you aware that the Florida DEP prohibits building a home on swampland ?

Why don't you do the research before typing

Pat, maybe in Palm Beach they think about Seminole but since very very few people have had the honor to play it and very very few people even know what it is let alone what it looks like, my guess is that when they think Florida private, they think Florida golf and people don't think Seminole when they think Florida Golf.

Then what do they think when they think, "PRIVATE GOLF" ?

Could you tell us how the Florida DEP allowed homes and golf courses to be built on swamps, as recently as 2006 ?
Thanks
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

How long ago did you move to Florida ?

When you say everything east of 41 was a swamp, are you sure you don't mean everything NORTH of 41 ?

Would you also look at a map and see where Rt's 41 and 29 intersect ?
Would you say that that intersection is in the heart of Naples ?  Or far, far removed from Naples ?

Are you aware that the East-West canal (well south of Naples) was excavated using close to 3 million sticks of dynamite ?
Why would they use dynamite to excavate a swamp ?

[JC Jones]

Pat, for the sake of everyone here let me say this:

You're smart. I was wrong. You were right. You're the best. I'm the worst. You're very good-looking. I'm not attractive. ...

I look forward to the day when we can play a round together or have a beer.  As long as the round isn't on some course built on a swamp

[John_Cullum]

Any comments on Palma Ceia GC , Dunedin CC, Belleair CC(36), Bellevue Biltmore, Clearwater CC, Temple Terrace in the Tampa/Clearwater area?
A pretty amazing array of ODG's in that area (Bendelow,Strong, Ross)
amazing how unillustrative most American websites are compared to the ones in the UK/Ireland.

No comment from me. I'm not wading into this swamp

[jeffwarne]

Any comments on Palma Ceia GC , Dunedin CC, Belleair CC(36), Bellevue Biltmore, Clearwater CC, Temple Terrace in the Tampa/Clearwater area?
A pretty amazing array of ODG's in that area (Bendelow,Strong, Ross)
amazing how unillustrative most American websites are compared to the ones in the UK/Ireland.

Jeff,

Can you fill us in? The best of the bunch. Interested to see another Strong course at Clearwater.

Mike,
I haven't played any of them! I was just shocked to see the pedigree of the courses in such a small area (there were other nearby ODG courses but the renovators were the usual Florida suspects and the pictures scared me )
I was trying to get some info about the courses from the Discussion Board and see what if any was left of the original designs (or frankly how the redesigns/renovations play)

Note to webdesigners----- pictures, (as they appear from the golf course as the holes are played) are useful.
UK/Ireland websites almost universally do this.
Many of our websites here have a lot of garbage pictures of non golf stuff and the few of the golf courses are of fountains from odd angles accross the course

[Ben Kodadek]

Jeff,

With regard to the course you've mentioned, I would say that Palma Ceia has held the line on keeping "what they had."  It's on old country club with old Tampa money.  The course could use a tree removal initiative, but most courses could 

I personally don't think either of the Belleair courses are that strong and certainly have been modified (not in a good way) over the years.  As for the Biltmore, I won't comment as, I haven't played there in years. 

Temple Terrace has nice bones but has struggled financially of late, and is very poorly conditioned.  Clearwater CC has turned into a flat, mindless muni, with many of the bunkers filled and water features added.

Dunedin CC green complexes have been "flattened" over the years, but I believe they've done a decent job of keeping the Ross heritage.  I'm playing there next week, so I'll keep you posted.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

With regard to the course you've mentioned, I would say that Palma Ceia has held the line on keeping "what they had."  It's on old country club with old Tampa money.  The course could use a tree removal initiative, but most courses could 

I personally don't think either of the Belleair courses are that strong and certainly have been modified (not in a good way) over the years.  As for the Biltmore, I won't comment as, I haven't played there in years. 

Temple Terrace has nice bones but has struggled financially of late, and is very poorly conditioned.  Clearwater CC has turned into a flat, mindless muni, with many of the bunkers filled and water features added.

Dunedin CC green complexes have been "flattened" over the years, but I believe they've done a decent job of keeping the Ross heritage.  I'm playing there next week, so I'll keep you posted.

Ben,
Thanks-
Dunedin looks nice, as does Palma Ceia.
Disappointing to hear about Clearwater (Strong):  and Belleair as there are 36 holes there (1 stop shopping)
Biltmore Hotel is undergoing a hotel renovation and is closed, but the golf course is open (having been recently renovated)
Temple Terrace uses aerial photos on their website which do a good job of highlighting the urban blight around it
Probably much less noticeable from the course, so why highlight it with an aerial?
Hopefully it will warm up there in the next few weeks

[JC Jones]

I should know better but I was reading an old thread on Florida golf and came across this post, which I found interesting in light of Mr. Mucci's comments:

Patrick_Mucci
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    Re:Seeking Greatness in Florida
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2007, 11:09:52 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie,

For all the tinkering, he just can't seem to get The Medalist "just right"..  Sometimes it looks more like Fazio's work

As a daily diet, I think it's too hard.
There is no rough, just swamp or woods off the fairway and when the wind picks up, it's even narrower.

I liked some of the early versions of # 3, and the changes to # 17 and # 18 haven't been appealing, or an improvement IMO.

It's a terrific spot and they run things exceptionally well, but, it needs a little more tweaking to get it right.

I'd bring Pete back for another look, but, I doubt that would happen.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I should know better but I was reading an old thread on Florida golf and came across this post, which I found interesting in light of Mr. Mucci's comments:

Patrick_Mucci
YaBB God

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Posts: 21720


I love YaBB 1 Gold!


    Re:Seeking Greatness in Florida
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2007, 11:09:52 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie,

For all the tinkering, he just can't seem to get The Medalist "just right"..  Sometimes it looks more like Fazio's work

As a daily diet, I think it's too hard.
There is no rough, just swamp or woods off the fairway and when the wind picks up, it's even narrower.

I liked some of the early versions of # 3, and the changes to # 17 and # 18 haven't been appealing, or an improvement IMO.

It's a terrific spot and they run things exceptionally well, but, it needs a little more tweaking to get it right.

I'd bring Pete back for another look, but, I doubt that would happen.

JC,
  Are you referring to the SWAMP comment? If that's the case, MEdalist is just located near the Jonathan Dickinson State Park, a park that features protected areas, swamps, pines trees and scrub...same as what you find off the fairways at Medalist AND McCarther...similar to Old Marsh-you're either in the swamp or the waste areas....

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

The issue I originally raised wasn't that FL doesn't have quality golf -- in particular spots.

The real issue is that from the courses I have played nationwide there are very few that really have the goods to be rated nationally in whatever category they are within.

I said this before -- what's amazing is how other areas of the county have now risen the bar dramatically and are now pushing out the least of the elite best -- in many ways, that's less of a knock towards FL and more of a push upwards for other areas -- most notably the mountain time zone.

[John_Cullum]

Guys:

The issue I originally raised wasn't that FL doesn't have quality golf

Yes Matt. That is certainly clear just from the title of your thread.


BTW-Are you a cameraman for Fox?