Why I can't stand Florida golf?

[Matt_Ward]

Common John -- let's be fair -- I have not played the courses mentioned by Derek and you're already a-s-s-u-m-i-n-g that I would trash them!

I'll repeat this for those who may have misunderstood me -- althogh I can't imagine how -- there are no doubt good golf courses in Florida. However, the issue is about the general sameness that pervades a high percentage of the total number of courses you find there. This is especially so with the vast amount of "new" courses that have come forward in say the last 10-15 years.

Derek:

When you say Orange County National was rated top 10 you are speaking to its selection as a "Top 10 You Can Play" pick by Golf Magazine -- not Golf Digest in 1998.

The pictures do indeed look most interesting. My next visit to Florida will coincide with the PGA Show in Orlando and if time permits I'll try to schedule a round there.

quassi:

I can't speak to the issue why certain architects (i.e. Doak, Crenshaw & Coore) have chosen not to work there. It's possible they may have turned down sites or believe the sites that have been offered do not rise to the level that interests them. Only asking them directly will provide a clear answer.

As I said to you previously you will need to play Tom Doak's new public effort at Texas Tech called The Rawls Course to show that he is quite capable in working with a dead flat site. The layout in Lubbock is well done and it emphasizes other features that you normally don't see in Florida. Unfortunately, the housing component of golf in Florida is the driving force -- the golf aspect is usually only nothing more than a convenient prop to push real estate. You also have the inability of developers and designers to add a bit more 'creativity' to their designs besides overdosing the use of internal OB, H20 and other contrived intereferences.

Clearly, certain areas of Florida that do have unique topography have produced some outstanding designs (i.e. Black Diamond and Innisbrook) are just two examples. I also enjoyed the "uniqueness" of The Ravines in Middleburg but I agree with Doak's analysis regarding the use of "head-on" forced carries. The McCumber design could have been better routed with that in mind.

quassi, I believe the challenge in designing on dead flat parcels is certainly demanding. You can't overdose the use of the bulldozer because it won't appear to be "natural." On the flip side if you decide to be a "minimalist" it's also likely you'll be accused in doing nothing of consequence. However, I do believe there's a happy medium but it depend upon the skill of the architect, the demands of the developer and the particulars related to the site in quesiton. One man who has done well with dead flat sites is Steve Smyers -- his work in NJ with Blue Heron Pines / East and Royce Brook / West are proof that good things can come about even with the most boring of sites.

The issue with plenty of Florida courses is following the same tired "forumla" of designs you now see (i.e. housing / OB on one side with H20 on the other, etc, etc). If you get a few layouts that opt to go in another direction it may spur more creative results down the pike. I'm not holding my breath that will happen but for now I'll take the Missouri approach -- shoe me.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

Your standard is for architectural excellence.  I'm afraid you won't find that at OCN.  The facility is pretty good and I do enjoy playing there - I've got at 10:50 AM teetime tomorrow - but the width of the fairways and expansive greens are too big to require any shotmaking.

I think it will be a great venue for Q-school.

Panther Lake is one of the best 10-15 courses in Orlando and Crooked Cat is not.  I'm basing this on the 100+ courses we have.  My personal ranking has Panther Lake in the top decile and Crooked Cat in the 4th.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Do you have any course info on Panther Lake -- yardage from the tips and other markers -- CR, SL?

Who designed the course? Opened when?

Many thanks ...

matt

P.S. Is it far from Orange County Civic where the PGA Show is held?

[Doug Sobieski]

Matt:

If you are down for The Show, Conley will probably agree that Victoria Hills would be the best new destination if you haven't seen it already and you wouldn't mind driving 45 minutes. I'm sure he's got it in his 1st decile. I know that finding availability during the show often poses a problem, but if you need help there e-mail me off-line at dsobieski@leasenet.us and I can probably hook you up.

All the best,

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

The only golf I definitely have scheduled thus far during my time at the PGA Show is at Southern Dunes. Riding 45 minites to a quality golf course is not an issue. Unless of course we define quality by "Florida" standards.

P.S. Thanks for your assist to help!

P.S. Plus -- Victoria Hills -- do you have info on a Website or have their course yardage, CR, SL - designed by who? Thanks!

[SteveTL]

Victoria Hills is good - but I don't think it will provide the "high octane" experience Matt is looking for.  It's still a real estate course - albeit with very dramatic bunkering and unique topography.  Definately worth seeing, but not remarkable.

The Watson Course at Reunion IMO is more interesting - all green surrounds are mowed close and the greens are varied.  Multitudes of recovery opportunities and angles of approach...  The Palmer Course at Reunion (when I played this past summer it was 9-Palmer and 9-Watson) is much of the typical Palmer.  There is a sporty little drivable par 4.

[SteveTL]

Matt,

I replied before I saw yours...

Ron Garl designed it... From memory (not necessarily a good memory) its less than 7,000 from the tips - par 72.

It was developed by Arvida - probably on www.arvida.com.  Search for Victoria Park community.

Hope this helps...

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Let me make matters a bit more simpler -- can anyone with knowledge of Orlando golf outline their "five must play" courses that are within 45-60 minutes of the PGA Show. I have played quite a few courses but don't have the time, patience and desire to do a major league dog and pony show visit to the ones that are well worth passing.

If someone can also provide a five most overrated listing of layouts in that same area it would be also appreciated.

Thanks ...

[rgkeller]

I played a course once in Orlando that was rented for the day by Rachels, a favorite spot for "gentlemen" who admire a certain type of "lady." The occasion was a fundraiser scramble for some charity - perhaps for unwed mothers.

Little about the course stuck in my memory, including its name, but it was of the memorable rounds of my life. Each foursome team had a couple of Rachels "dancers" as caddies. The caddy dress code was quite flexible. Our two were, without doubt, the best caddies I have ever had, bringing the concept of helping the golfer to a level I had not previously contemplated.

You might stop by Rachels - it may have been on your itinerary already - and ask if they have any golf tournaments scheduled that week.

However, I do remember that the course was flat and had bermuda greens, so you might not enjoy the day in any case.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

Dave Harman designed the two courses at Orange County, although Isao Aoki and Phil Ritson also get a credit.  Harman's Magnolia Plantation is about as awful as I've seen anywhere, but I've heard great things about Kauri Cliffs.

Both are about 7400 yards.  You can get all the info you want on the Orange County National website.  I posted their website's comment about it having 18 signature holes last week!

Doug is right about Vickie Hills, the best course named for an adult film star anywhere.  I have it #1 in O-town.

Here's your list of our best:

Victoria Hills
Southern Dunes
Mystic Dunes
Watson course at Reunion (if you can count this)
Mission Inn - El Campeon - (most difficult from back tees by far)
Grand Cypress N/S/E
Isleworth
Panther Lake
Osprey Ridge
and possibly the International at Champions Gate (depending on your taste)

The Legends at Orange Lake misses by a shade and embodies that real estate look you don't like.

My overrateds go to Disney's Magnolia, Bay Hill, Lake Nona, the New at Grand Cypress, and LPGA's or Falcon's Fire's courses designed by Rees Jones.

The true strength of Orlando is when you go "off the beaten path" with lesser expecations and lower green fees and play some of our other courses.  I'd suggest Highlands Reserve, Eagle Dunes (a dose of Sand Hills near Black Bear), Harbor Hills, North Shore, Deltona Hills, the Diamond Player's Club in Clermont, Errol Estate, Palisades, Rock Springs Ridge, Sugar Mill, the Arthur Hills courses at LPGA or Cypress Head, Swiss Fairways, Green Valley, or Forest Lake.  

And Matt, please don't take the sample of Orlando courses as indicative of all of Florida.  If you were coming down for the golf I would send you to one of the best affordable public-access swings in North America by catching Lake Jovita, Rolling Oaks and Pine Barrens at World Woods, the Dunes at Seville, and El Diablo.  Toss in privates Black Diamond Ranch's Quarry, the CC of Ocala, and Golden Ocala and it is pretty impressive "golf per (lack of) population".  There are a few courses in these parts that I have not yet seen and are on my wish list.  Off the top of my head, Twisted Oak in Beverly Hills, Rainbow Springs, and a couple others including the UF course.

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

I'm punch drunk reading this thread.  Aren't we all missing Matt's real point?

A finished golf course product is comprised of two parts:
a) the land he has to work with
b) the work he does with that land.

a+b=the golf course

I believe Matt's point is (not to speak for him and please correct me where I am wrong) the "A" part in the equation is usually a 1 to 3 out of a possible 10.  No matter how good a job the architect does (out of a 10 score) it will hard to be a 20 out of 20 or even above 15 score.  The land just isn't that interesting.  Period.  

That coupled with the homes they are stacking on the courses like firewood (which is happening all over but more down there).  

[SteveTL]

John's got it about right - the authoritative word on O-town.  I'm not as big a fan of Vickie Hills (the golf course), but it's a top 4 on the list.  Hopefully by the time the PGA show rolls around Watson's 18 will be open at Reunion.

Alaqua Lakes is a decent Fazio, might crack the bottom of the top 10. - Alaqua is an overrated Player...

[frank_D]

florida golf news (edward travis, editor 863-401-9744 winter haven) does an annual survey of "florida's favorite" courses and publishes the results - the latest survey responses were due in by oct 15th and the results by REGION should be available soon - the website is flgolfnews.com

OR

golfpactravel.com (central florida) publishes online an alphabetical list by geographic region also and seem to include ALL courses

OR

yahoo yellow pages lists course by miles from the address you use as your starting point but may be limited to include site SPONSOR courses only

[Matt_Ward]

Ben Hogan NJ:

You are correct about the necessity for a superior site (prior to the golf course being created). Florida is home to, as Tom Doak describes in "CG," the capital of the Flat Earth Society. If I had to weigh particular categories I would go with (1) land (2) routing and (3) creation of comprehensive shot values.

However, as John and Steve have pointed out there are certain locations within the state that are aberations and the golf can be quite good -- even outstanding (i.e. Innisbrook / Cpperhead, Black Diamond / Quarry, to name just two exceptions).

John / Steve:

Thanks for the info on the courses in and around Orlano. I've played about a dozen or so of the ones mentioned. I sill thoroughly enjoy Southern Dunes and believe it's one of the finest you can play in the state.

It also seems to this Jurseee guy that too much attention goes to the SW and SE corners of the state but little of real info is ever provided on what happens in the general Orlando area.

Don't know how much time

[SteveTL]

Golf in the SW and SE is largely forgetable - despite the $$$ thrown at some of the courses.  There are a few exceptions - but they are few indeed.

Southern Dunes is quite good golf - it's a shame the housing and community is so awful.  You have to drive past so many McMansions (cookie cutter homes) to get to the clubhouse - it really compromises "the place".

[John_Conley]

Frank D:

With all due respect, Charley Stine's list isn't worth the paper on which it's printed.  Grenelfe, Bay Hill, the TPC, and Copperhead will be Top 4 with the state's finest private clubs unseen by most casting a vote.

Matt:

Like Southern Dunes?  Try Highlands Reserve just N.  First solo design by Mike Dasher, who left Art Hills.  His three Orlando courses are solid golf - North Shore and Eagle Dunes (the newest and best) are the other two.

I just saw Alaqua "overrated", which dumbfounds me because I've NEVER heard one good word about the place.  One of about 4 courses in town I haven't played and I don't care if I ever do.

[SteveTL]

I've played Alaqua - it IS overrated, even if it has never been rated positively!

You have missed nothing John.  It's debatable whether a bad day of work is better than a good day at Alaqua!

Alaqua Lakes next door (The Legacy Club) is a good golf course, worth playing.  Not a life-changing experience, but not bad...

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

If you're referring to West Palm Beach CC -- yes -- I have played it. I liked the course -- I remember reading about in 1981 when Frank Hannigan authored an article for GD on the best public courses in the USA and WPB CC was listed amont the ten best in the USA -- if memory serves. The course was / is good but it wasn't even remotely top ten in the USA even back then.

Above average layout and the rates when I was there (no less than 15-17 years ago) were very affordable -- even for those snowbirds like myself who are not residents of the town.

Can't make any recent comments but would be interested to hear from people who play it frequently.

I hope I answered your question ...

[frank_D]

John_Conley

I don't know who Charley Stine is and a course you indicated - Grenelfe - i believe has filed bankruptcy and closed

If you mean Ed Travis editor of Florida Golf News (FGN) "Favorites" voting - i objected to that result in a letter to the editor last year - but you know how "Voting" results in florida go

FGN drop ships hundreds of newspapers for free distribution to players to clubs like Tiburon and none to some others - well guess who has a better chance of getting a vote ?

also the inducement for voting is the possibility of being selelcted for a free round(s) somewhere in orlando - well is this really an inducement to a seminole club member ?

i don't think there would be enough computer memory to hold a thread entitled "why i can't stand florida golf voting"

all i really was intending to suggest were sources listing ALL courses available - not limited to site sponsor listings

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

If memory serves I believe West Palm Beach CC was Dick Wilson's first solo design. I also believe the course formerly hosted a PGA tour stop many years ago.

The Hannigan article in GD highlighted top courses from around the nation but it was more a Zagat's guide to securing info.

[Matt_Ward]

For those "in the know" can anyone comment on the quality of golf in the Panhandle section of the state -- specicially from Pensacola to Talahassee?

I know Bill McBride lives in the Pensacola area and the only layouts I've played there include Perdido Bay and Bluewater Bay in Niceville. Is there anything in that region (not counting southern Alabama and Mississippi) that could make a top 25 in the Sunshine State?

Or are the bulk of the layouts a cut and paste of the same "scintilating" design you see often in SW and SE Florida?

Any info is appreciated since I will be traveling to that area sometime in the late spring.

[SteveTL]

From my personal experience in several recent business/personal travels to the panhandle...  

Sharks Tooth is a private Greg Norman course in the Wild Heron community.  Its been open a little over a year, and plays several holes along Lake Powell, the largest of the "dunes lakes" a few hundred yards from the Gulf of Mexico.  It is quite good - far surpassing his work which I am familiar with at Oldfield, Doral, and Championsgate (not that that says much, but it is very good).  

Camp Creek is a Fazio layout developed by the St. Joe Company as a golf destination for residents and guests at their panhandle development.  It is hard, and far from the usual Florida fare.  While there, I'd suggest staying at the Watercolor Inn if you have the chance.  It's a terrific boutique hotel on the Gulf.  It is located between Destin and Panama City Beach - adjacent Seaside.  While associated with real estate, it is NOT a real estate course - it is conceived as a stand alone strictly golf facility.

In Talahassee, there is a new Couples/Bates golf course called Southwood.  I saw it before it opened, it looked pretty good, and has had positive reviews from friends who have played it.  Both Camp Creek and Southwood are Arvida/St. Joe projects, you might be able to get information from www.arvida.com.  

Panama City Beach has the '80s vintage "Lagoon Legend" at Baypointe.  It was a tour de force of earthmoving, water and sand everywhere.  At one time I believe it had the most difficult rating in the US...  I'm not endorsing it - perhaps someone who has been there more recently can respond...

Steve

[John_Conley]

Frank D:

Charley Stine owned Golfweek and sold it to Rance Crain.  He then started another rag focusing on the region.  Editorial quality is nonexistant and stories often pretend to cover golf but are actually shilling for his friends or sons.  He has a readers favorites ranking and it is pretty bad if you are looking at serious golf design - like Matt is.  The list is his readers' favorites.  Nothing more.

I've played South at Grenelefe and they are planning on opening East soon.  West looks to be a couple years away.  All of this could change if Siegel sells it and I've heard he might.  Don't for a moment think that such issues would prevent Stine's readers from voting for the three courses.  If Siegel buys and ad I can bet you even the worse Grenelefe course makes the Top 50.

Matt:

Near Destin, Camp Creek is awfully good.  Shark's Tooth has opened since I visited and is considered the equal or better.  Local favorites Regatta Bay (pretty bad) and Kelly Plantation (okay, but bland) are skippable.  I think you'll like Burnt Pine and the Raven at Sandestin.  I thoroughly enjoyed Lagoon Legend and encourage any fan of golf design to see it for a view at what almost caught on 20 years ago.  They don't design 'em like that any more and it is probably a good thing.  (This opened just after TPC Stadium.)

Enjoy.  I loved the Destin area.  DO NOT MISS the Red Bar near Grayson Beach.  One of the greatest restaurants I've ever been fortunate enough to visit.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

Appreciate the info on Panhandle recommendations. Maybe we can hook up during the PGA Show.

Ditto your comments on Charley because I can remember his Florida GolfWeek pubs ratings back in the mid-80's and it was a routine that Grenelefe was rated #1 and a few other resort / public courses (i.e. The Ravines, to name just one) also got a good rating. I found it amusing when Seminole had a hard time cracking into the top five, however, I am well aware that many regional / state publication have a difficult time in separating advertorial from editorial matters. When pubs walk too closely with their advertisers the end result of such state / regional rating polls can be blurred and their meaning really lost to the person interested in getting info that hasn't already been slanted by those running the publication.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

How can a "Readers Favorites" list do justice when the reader can't play Seminole (not that I can either), Mountain Lake (that place is like a fortress), Isleworth (ditto), and others?  Of course it was bound not to work.  PGA Tour sites win out as evidenced by Grenelefe, Innisbrook, Bay Hill, the TPC, and Doral.  Ugh.

Nonetheless, these are the readers favorites.