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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2003, 09:38:38 AM »
December 27, 2003

Spend the morning at Disney Animal Kingdom. Leave after lunch and drop my mother-in-law at her hotel and drive to a flat, cart-ball course with man-made lakes. 75 degrees (hopefully), playing in shorts, I love Florida golf !!

A_Clay_Man

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2003, 10:22:15 AM »
Matt- I suppose the facts will back up this assertion.  ;D

Most of these 1,000 course have been built in the last 40 years, correct? While there are of course exceptions, the standard fare is what I assume your talking about. You even site exceptions. But the point is that Florida's boom, during the creme de la crap era is likely the biggest reason "why" you can't stand Florida golf.

I don't think Doak even needs to build there, to prove that he could create something special like TRC.

Personally, I like the terrain in Florida, it's subtle movement should've made for great golf courses, and seven ain't enough for all the potential.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2003, 07:23:37 PM »
Adam,
Seven courses in the top 100 ain't bad considering, as you noted, the boom if Fla has only happened in recent times.
The population of Fla was only 2.7 mil people in 1950 but is 16.7 mil today.
NY had 14.8 mil in '50, 19.15mil today
NJ had 4.8mil in '50, 8.6 mil today
Ca. had 10.6 mil in '50 and 35 mil today.

None of these states except NY can boast more "exceptional" or ranked courses than Fla..
None of these states, with the possible exception of Ca., has a higher percentage of golf courses built with housing developments in mind.

I can name ten Fla courses that I've played which are very good anywhere you'd care to put them and I only visit the state for several weeks a year. Someone like John Conley or other contributors here could probably name many more.

Black Bear- Eustis
Harbor Hills- Leesburg?
El Diablo- the boondocks w/of Ocala
Dunes at Seville- Right near WWoods
St James- just N. of Ft. Pierce
Bloomingdale GC- Valrico
Diamond  PC- Clermont?
Palisades- Clermont
Twisted Oaks- Beverly Hills
Sandpiper- Lakeland
 
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2003, 07:26:32 PM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2003, 04:25:08 AM »
Matt:

Southern Florida is never going to have great courses because we lack both the terrain and the developer+architect who is willing to create the terrain out of the sand. It can be done, just hasn't been.

There are a number of course where the Bermuda grass on the greens are very fast, but that usually depends on the time of the year.

I would be curious to hear what you think of the new Ritz course in Jupiter. You would be pleasantly surprised at the conditioning.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt_Ward

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2003, 10:06:23 AM »
Jim Kennedy:

I could frankly care less what the magazines say because often times the link between advertising and editorial product is quite strong.

Let me also mention that when you name a few courses of distinction I would urge you to RE-READ the part where I included a selected listing of a few courses of high quality. Would they really make a top 100 in the USA -- I can only say a very small amount would (possibly 3-5) and given the fact that Florida leads the nation in courses it speaks VOLUMES about how low the bar is regarding course quality in the state. NJ has only 1/4 of the courses of the Sunshine State but the quality is like comparing a minor league team to a major league one. Not even remotely close.

Jim -- here's the MO on Florida golf ...

1). Houses flanking fairways like spectactors at a pararde. They vary in size but they clog the natural flow by simply overwhelming the landscape. When you mention the aspect of people living there I can understand the affinity for the warm weather and the desire to move away from snow, ice, etc, etc. But, how does that justify the piss-poor architecture? It doesn't. You're simply making excuses why people have decided to "invest" themselves into the state.

2). Since you have houses and since you also have people who want to maintain their closeness to the course but still be separate you must have OB on nearly every hole at so many Florida courses. I bet if one estimated the total number of OB stakes & signs in Florida you could dwarf several golf states put together. There is also more cart signage than on most interestates.

3). Of course, if you have OB on one side you get the obligatory overdosing of H20 on nearly every other hole. Let's also not forget the obligatory water in front of par-3 hole which is an absolute must on any course you play. ::)

4). The bermuda turf, with again a few exceptions, drains quite slowly and is VERY, VERY slow. Bermuda accentuates the aerial game -- it is simply point-to-point type stuff.

5). The greens are also so much "fun" to putt -- yes, there are some courses that keep the bermuda closely cropped but the added joy in figuring out the grain makes for nothing more than a "poke and hope" stroke. Again, for those who are not following me -- there are a select number of courses that try to keep the surface as tightly cropped as possible but Bermuda as still Bermuda.

Jim -- just because "live there" doesn't mean I can't opine on the golf component. If you read again my initial thrust I did say the weather and people are first rate. You must have skipped that part or simply paid no attention to it.

The golf side in Florida, however, is simply dreadful stuff -- what's wrong in acknowledging the obviousness of that comment? Might it be that you live there and are simply validating your personal situation? Nothing wrong with living there -- but the golf side?? Only Texas and California can made a valid claim that they have nearly as many boring and uneventful golf courses as the Sunshine State. But, there are a number of places in the other two states that have solid topography and do offer a much deeper stream of quality layouts than the Sunshine State.

SPDB:

Please realize the gentleman in question knows full well how to contact me and since he is knowledgable about Jersey golf I simply mentioned that nature of what has been said about plenty of layouts by the publication regarding the overdosing of trees that clog various golf courses in the Garden State. Anyone desiring back articles / issues can simply contact me. Sad to say -- we're not at Barnes & Nobles magazine rack just yet. ;D

Adam C:

Please send me the weefer you're smoking following the comments you made. ;D Florida is an architectural wasteland (with few exceptions). The designs are simply pro forma "excuses" in order to promote housing -- pure and simple. It's nothing more than the same tired variation of the menus you see with fast food restaurants.

I simply "enjoy" the "clever" design schemes that favor housing (with OB next to them) on one side of the hole and H20 on the other. Then the braintrusts that put these places together flip the pattern to the other side of the hole. Solid creativity! ;)

quassi:

Appreciate your comments -- Florida has plenty of golf courses. The issue of architectural quality is simply not present (with a very, very few exceptions). I wish people well who decide to make Florida their home because they are generally going to be playing nothing more than "fast food" courses that are nothing more than props to sell the homes there. If that floats their boat (no pun intended) so be it.

Just realize this -- just because people have to legitimize their "investment" choices doesn't mean I need to validate the golf course "merits" or lack thereof.

S. Huffstutler

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2003, 11:45:50 AM »
Funny......given the state of traffic around here lately, I guess a whole lot of people don't agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion, but I might suggest that you haven't even scratched the surface of Florida golf. Come over to the west coast sometime and try Naples National (if you can get on). Central Florida has World Woods, Sarastoa has Gator Creek...and on, and on....there are many fine layouts here, but no matter what we do, it will still be pretty flat and you will be playing on Bermuda until we are all growing Paspalum. You probably won't like that either, though.

Steve
Naples

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2003, 12:13:09 PM »
Matt,
I am not doubting the fact that Fla. has more junk than jewels. I am only saying that there are a number of good courses to play down there.  
You may not care what the magazines say but what other methods of rating exist to gauge the quality of the offerings in the state? You cite Tom Doak's CG. If I recall correctly he didn't spend any time looking around down there as he was fairly sure there were no 10's. Same for poor old Ct.(outside of Yale).
Fla. has seven courses in the top 100. You offer no proof that they don't belong.        
 
You wrote: "Jim -- just because(I don't) "live there" doesn't mean I can't opine on the golf component. If you read again my initial thrust I did say the weather and people are first rate. You must have skipped that part or simply paid no attention to it."

I said nothing to that effect. What I did write was in response to your statement that people from Northern/Midwestern states "RUN BACK HOME ASAP" in the spring.
You attribute their exodus to these people's desire to thankfully go back to good golf courses. I said these people leave because they come from those Northern/Midwestern states.

I named ten courses accessible to the public market that I would consider to be worthwhile places to play, that is my opinion of them.  
If any of those courses were located in NY,NJ,or CA they would be no better or no worse than they are at their present locations.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MargaretC

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2003, 01:22:18 PM »
...Florida golf is better than no golf, and you can wear shorts.  A very important point.  What are you going to do?  It is what it is.

Well said!   :)

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2003, 01:49:36 PM »
Someone like John Conley or other contributors here could probably name many more.

Jim:

I could, but once Matt makes a post like this he's already made up his mind!

Ben_Hogan_NJ

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2003, 03:39:55 PM »
Matt-
God Bless you for this post.  I couldn't agree more.  Yes, there are a FEW solid courses down there but I think it is the worst state with a highest proportion of quantity of courses to quality golf courses.  

Florida Golf=OVERRATED.

SteveTL

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2003, 04:59:17 PM »
Good point John...

By the way - during a brief visit to the northeast last summer during rush hour I decided that all northeasterners are arrogant jerks.

Your posts on this thread perpetuates my opinion.  

Golf is a great game - it's great in Florida, New York, Nebraska, and every other place it is played.  On the best and worst courses it is a great game...

Florida IS different than just about anywhere else - basically a flat sand bar hung onto the southeastern corner of the US.  As such, it has limitations.  It also has a disproportionate amount of mosquitos, humidity, roadside alligator farms, and fried food.  So what?  

Perhaps you should seek to critque specifics.  It would be more enlightening than your largely ignorant blanket opinion.  Sure Florida has many crappy golf courses - probably more than most any other state.  Look harder and you will find many GREAT golf courses - and not all with homes, OB, and the obligatory H20 on each hole.

Open your mind - with a different perspective and a little more exploration I'm sure that you WILL be able to "stand Florida golf"!

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2003, 06:31:45 PM »
Containment mounding on the right and water on the left.......for variation lets put the containment on the left and the water on the right.

That is what I don't like about much of Florida Golf.

But the weather looks really good this time of year and there are the Seminoles, World Woods, Mountain Lakes and Hole in the Walls.  


Derek_Duncan

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Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2003, 07:39:58 PM »
Another way to look at it is Florida gives you more of an opportunity than other states to exercise choice and discretion.

I think you're too hung up in numbers Matt. What if you eliminated all the "bad" and "boring" golf courses--would it make the good courses any better (or is your point that there's only about a dozen good courses)? Does the fact that there are so many below average courses really diminish the quality courses ?

What if you didn't waste your time playing the bad and boring golf courses and concentrated on the good and interesting courses you've not yet played?

I'm not sure the value of your points about playing conditions either. They seem to come from an A-player perspective and have to do with scoring, which is a pretty arbitrary criteria considering how many people play golf and how many play well. And criticizing the state because of its bermuda grasses is about as useful as condemning the rain in Washington or the heat in Arizona, or the earth because it's round.

I share your views on the standardness of the architecture but I think you're giving middle tier courses way too much attention. I believe the best 50 or so courses in Florida show quite a lot of variety, intrigue, challenge, quality conditioning, and beauty. After that I'm not sure, but what do you get in New Jersey or Michigan or New York after 50? Anything better?

For most who live in Florida it's a blessing that the state has a bottom 500 best (or worst) courses.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Matt_Ward

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2003, 07:59:01 PM »
Jim:

You say I offer "no proof" about the courses that make up the top 100 in the USA. Jim -- you must have skipped the arguments I made in GREAT DETAIL. The state has some of the most hideous land that a golf course can inhabit. In addition, you have the tedious quality of courses that have only one purpose -- sell REAL ESTATE. Therefore you get the predictable houses (OB) on one side with H20 on the other. Every once and awhile they vary the package but the end result is the same. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. If it wasn't for the weather many people would simply skip the place -- witness the exodus during the summer months.

My dear man, with all due respect, I don't need the magazines to tell me what is great and what isn't. I've been to Florida countless times since I was in high school. I've played nearly all of the top courses in Florida (save for the ones that may have opened within the last few years -- i.e. Calusa Pines, to name just one example) and the MO I previously mentioned still holds true to form.

Off the top of my head the only courses capable of cracking my personal top 100 would include:

Seminole
TPC / Stadium
World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Black Diamond (Quarry)

I'll leave room out for possibly one more but Jim don't forget what I said -- Florida has nearly 1,100 courses and you only have a very, very small handful that merits serious discussion. Tom Doak described the situation very clearly and in my mind -- accurately. You have the capital of the Flat Earth Society in the Sunshine State and the golf designs (with very few exceptions) is dullsville. I don't doubt the weather and the wonderful people who inhabit the state -- the golf is simply bow-wow stuff.

Steve from Naples:

Whose opinion are you referrring to when you say so many others disagree with me? I heard yours and you do mention a few places -- I have played Naples National and it's a fine Hurdzan / Fry design, however, it's not in the same league as the five courses (see above) I mentioned in my response to Jim K. The explosion of golf in the SW corner of Florida is simply duplicating the "successful" golf development formula that envelopes SE Florida. It simply is more of the cookie-cutter designs with housing / OB and H20 on nearly every hole. Please send me a pillow while I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

John C / Jim K:

I have mentioned a few courses that I enjoy in Florida (I even mentioned how much I enjoy Ocean Hammock in Palm Coast --I've also enjoyed the several times I played the former Key Biscayne GC -- now called Crandon Park)) but the state is merely a way station in allowing people to play golf while the rest of the country hits the deep freeze months. Sadly, architectural quality layouts have been "frozen out" because of the desire to build houses.

Even funnier still is how people who have "invested" into these developments take umbrage when others mention how piss poor the architecture is. I guess if you live long enough the taste of McDonald's food (golf) can be quite enjoyable. I have not acquired that "taste" and hope I never do. ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2003, 08:17:24 PM »
Derek:

I hear your point and I do concentrate on all types of courses but my main argument still stands -- Florida has over 1,100 courses and when you add up the perceived "great" ones you get a very small number of courses that can really stand up against the likes of others with better topography, design / routing and turf considerations.

Derek -- I don't post with a desire to be "homer" for my state (i.e. NJ). I'm a golfer first and foremost. It is recognized by nearly all students of golf course architecture that the Northeast quadrant (the area strecthing from Phillie through NYC and in selected locations along I-95 beyond to the Boston area is the premier resting spot for America's finest courses. When the courses in Florida were / are being built did anyone bother to take a visit and see if they could replicate what was done there? One other point you made -- I have to say the top 50 courses in Florida would not stand a lick up against the 50 best in either NJ, NY or PA. Not even close IMHO.

Derek -- when you say it's unfair to criticize the turf because it would be similar to what the rain is like in Washington or the heat in AZ -- well, you know what -- that's life. You look at places and assess based on what IS there. There is an ideal and then there is the second and third levels. Unfortunately, I don't cut slack simply because of "local" conditions. When I see Florida my view is the epitome of the "dumb-down version of design" for the sake of a quick and easy buck. It's the mentality of milking people by building housing that simply envelopes the golf courses with pre-packaged cookie-cutter designs. The bermuda plays a key role in this and whether or not you want to accept my critique as fair is certainly a debatable point but I stand behind what I said regarding the fact that in-season bermuda accentuates the aerial game.

SteveTL

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2003, 08:46:16 PM »
Matt,

You are right about the dumbed down design ruling in Florida.  I dislike the fact that you put the entire state in one general category, the "production for the masses" philosophy has run rampant everywhere.  It's why WalMart is taking over the world - much to my dismay.

The weather in Florida is intoxicating to those from northern colder climes.  Because of this, the need to provide a decent product -whether it be golf or homes or restaurants, or anything else - is reduced.  It hasn't been a good indictment on Florida, or many (maybe most?) other places.

Henry Flagler and Donald Ross produced the St. Augustine Links (a.k.a Ponce de Leon Golf Course) in this area in 1916.  I have discussed this golf course on this site several months back.  A couple of months ago, it closed, and is giving way to "progress" - disguised as a bullshit cookie-cutter housing development and opportunistic intracoastal waterfront development.  Many awful golf courses have been produced in this area in recent years - which I suppose will replace the rounds taken from this classic golf course.

There are many fine examples to cite in this state, and the bane of development has not solely cast its shadow onto Florida - it just happens to be the flattest and wettest recipient!  Ocean Hammock is very good, but the 18th hole is plagued with a 12-story condominium "pimple" directly to the right of it's green.  Look around the state and you will find many wonderful golf courses - maybe not the best - but very fine courses.  Pablo Creek, Old Memorial, and Sharks Tooth are three I have played which are wonderful despite their Florida address.    

Florida is proof that quantity doesn't equal quality - but there IS quality to be found.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2003, 09:31:29 PM »
The 17th at Prestwick is a great hole and the 5th at Old Marsh is a bad hole because one offers reasonable and interesting recovery  opportunities after a blind approach and the other doesn't. And, by the way, the one that doesn't is also the hole most often played in strong winds.


Are you really trying to claim that Old Marsh is played in a strong wind more often than PRESTWICK?  You might need a refresher visit 8)


As for the thread, I gotta agree with Matt Ward on this.  If weather and travel cost/difficulty wasn't a factor, would anyone really put Florida above the NE, CA or even Arizona or Nebraska(!) as a destination that a UK golfer should visit for some golf in the states?

There's a course in town I play about a quarter of my rounds on that advertises itself as a "Florida style" course.  I have to agree.  It is flat as a pancake (except for one hill) is about two foot above the water table so its soggy after anything more than 1/4" of rain, has an overabundance of unnecessary water hazards, uses bunkers in the most predictable ways possible and needs about 20 more acres of land to avoid being a severe head injury waiting to happen.

Ever since a new course opened out a bit outside of town that's got a nice Scottish thing going, with firm-n-fast conditions, windswept, plenty of elevation changes, trees don't come much into play, etc. I find myself wanting to visit the "Florida style" course less and less.  I'd probably only go there a few times a year but unfortunately not everyone has come around to my viewpoint yet.  If it was a bit more challenging (only 70.7/127 or so from the tips) I could see possibly preferring it over my home course, or at least doing half/half.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2003, 11:43:57 PM »
Matt,

The point isn't that the best courses in Florida compare to the best courses in the "Northeast quadrant," it's that once you clear the best 50 or so in any state you get pretty average golf. You only pick on Florida because of its quantity, because it's got 700 more crappy courses to be offended by than Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Nevada, South Carolina, Washington, Maryland...

If you want to list all the states that aren't as strong as New York, Pennsylvania, and Mass you better have a lot of paper. But if you stopped counting at 50 or even 100 courses how many states would show as strong as Florida? A few certainly would, but the test shows that sheer numbers drop the state in the estimation of many. How else do you explain that when you think of golf in the Northeast you think of the best and most evocative courses, and when you think of golf in Florida you think of the worst--flat housing tract courses.

I also never said it was unfair to criticize Florida for it's grasses. I said it was about as useful as criticizing the sky for being blue and not red.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2003, 02:26:01 AM »
Matt Ward,

If we excluded golf courses within residential communities or resorts, and just look at PRIVATE CLUBS like the ones that exist in the northeast, then what happens to the equation ???

I think it's only fair to compare apples to apples.

Randy Van Sickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2003, 06:17:01 AM »
While I have not seen a great number of Florida golf courses, I find the incorporation of the natural contours of the massive sand ridge into the many strong holes at John's Island West to be very interesting. It is a course that I alway look forward to playing.  I suppose this is an exception, and read the subject of the post to mean MOST Florida golf, not the exceptions here and there, but I think the same could be said about most other states.
Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

S. Huffstutler

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2003, 07:31:16 AM »
Matt: Hate is a strong emotion and if your standards for design are so high as to make a golf outing unpleasant, I would suggest that you might need to find an alternate pastime. Personally, I like to play golf. I love to play at great courses, but I like to play no matter what, good design or not.
Might I suggest that the next time you visit the Sunshine State, you take advantage of our fine beaches, go water skiing or just hang out and enjoy the pretty girls who aren't all bundled up for the weather. Florida golf is what it is, and regardless of your feelings, there are many fine golf experiences to be had here. Try not to be so serious.

Steve

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2003, 10:25:20 AM »
Matt:

Like the body of work from Prince or Madonna, there's just so much "Florida golf" that you are bound to find many courses you like if you'd take the time to sample more of it.

You are saying you don't want to and that's fine.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2003, 10:45:21 AM »
Matt- It appears that your bar is very high. Your emphasis on turf conditions is a poster boy for high maintenance costs which results in a proliferation of high green fees, ergo the need for more housing projects, to make the numbers work.  

Have you even been to WW lately? Talk about turf conditions. Try El Diablo, next time there. JF has some real movement and the narrowing aspect of the courses flow, is sure to be to your liking.

Also, Did you mis-understand my earlier post or do you really think the land in and around the Ocala area is flat and boring? There are also many other regions in the state with decent movement. Maybe they are not near the populous but the all is not flat. I'd even go so far as to say perfect terrain to build walkable golf.


Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2003, 10:50:04 AM »
Matt,
You said to Pat; "The rest of those who play golf don't have the luxury" when referring to Florida's private golf.

Aren't "Northeast quadrant" courses just as private - if not more so?

I miss the correlation here.

Pat Mucci:

I don't doubt there are exceptional clubs in Florida -- but when you add in the fact that the state has over 1,000 courses the very minimal number one can mention as "exceptional" is very, very small indeed. You are blessed to play Boca Rio and Pine Tree as a continual basis. The rest of those who play golf don't have the luxury.

It is recognized by nearly all students of golf course architecture that the Northeast quadrant (the area strecthing from Phillie through NYC and in selected locations along I-95 beyond to the Boston area is the premier resting spot for America's finest courses.

frank_D

Re:Why I can't stand Florida golf?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2003, 05:11:34 PM »

well i've also read of american tour professionals knocking british courses so your opinion, as well as many others, is understandable - however - if you MUST be stuck in FLA may i offer some suggestions - (keep in mind - when in rome)

1) avoid the typical tourist traps and play where the "local's" play

2) walk the course and look at it as a workout - bring extra shirts to change - schedule to have a cold beer / martini and shower and hot tub afterwards

3) use the "services" of the female caddies - may i suggest from Hooters or Solid Gold or Pure Platinum

4) forget the architecture - so the place is flat as a pancake - what can be done anyway about the topography or the severe weather including downpours, tornados and hurricanes neccessitating flood and storm drains and canals ? the entire everglades were destroyed trying to re-route nature (and now Billions are going to be spent to put it back as near to what it was before it was built on)

for some specific public access courses by region [not meant in any order or priority only examples]
orlando - falcon's fire / rees jones / country club feel
miami - the Biltmore / donald ross / historic classic
naples - tiburon / greg norman / newcomer
tampa - world woods / tom fazio / best of show reviews
panhandle - indian bayou

otherwise go play somewhere else - and leave the courses here less crowded for me