Should golf course photography be held to a code of ethics?

[John Kavanaugh]

Curt Flood cost them the 68 series. Lucky you.

[Ira Fishman]

As a Cubs fan, there was not a World Series for which my parents could have left me home. But if there are three sports photos for which I would want a “real” version two would be Mays’s catch and Robinson stealing home on Yogi. The third is Hogan’s 1 iron at Merion.


Ira

[Tim_Weiman]

Art and architecture are different. If I get to 17 expecting to see a perfectly framed berm hole and come away subliminally disjointed I may go away disliking the course without even knowing why.

I get this.


Several people have told me they were "disappointed" in seeing Cape Kidnappers in person, because all they'd seen of it were aerial photos, and they didn't get the same perspective from the ground.  I don't know how to respond to that.  Expectations are a bitch.  But Cape Kidnappers is a spectacular place even without a drone.

Tom,


Thanks to the Renaissance Cup, I experienced Cape Kidnappers in person long before seeing any drone pictures.


Honestly, I don’t think drone pictures add anything compared to actually playing the course.

[Eric Smith]

One I'm sure Kavbone will better understand and I think agree that Walt Disney was a giant, but c'mon!
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[Blake Conant]

Thanks. Wow...I was wrong about that one. I did not know that with a camera alone you could create whatever image you want from almost nothing. While accurate in theory I still believe the picture to be make believe in reality.

It’s a bold move asking photographers to have a code of ethics while falsely accusing a photographer of doctoring a photo, but you’re a bold guy.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just blow up the pic that proves the angle does exist. I believe that I see a cart path next to the tree. I would also suggest that a limb was removed to make the photoshop easier. Further I find it odd that a wind strong enough to raise a flag is not strong enough to bend the prairie grass. Looks like a heavy pole to boot.

I just don't see how anyone can say this is a representation of reality. It's a montage of clever trickery.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Just blow up the pic that proves the angle does exist. I believe that I see a cart path next to the tree. I would also suggest that a limb was removed to make the photoshop easier. Further I find it odd that a wind strong enough to raise a flag is not strong enough to bend the prairie grass. Looks like a heavy pole to boot.

I just don't see how anyone can say this is a representation of reality. It's a montage of clever trickery.

Are all pictures supposed to represent reality? Sometimes a picture is an artistic adventure. I'll take pictures at Ballyhack periodically. So does my wife. Mine show the course. Hers are just pretty landscape pictures, some with a goat.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm sure, as I have just learned, that from the 18th tee at Ballyhack you could use a telephoto lens and make the huge tree on the right look like it required a carry similar to the now gone Eisenhower tree from Augusta. I sure you could even flip the image and make the tree to appear to be on the left side. I see no value in those shenanigans.

[Mike Sweeney]

I see no value in those shenanigans.

[John Kavanaugh]

https://www.hollywoodgolfclub.org/club/scripts/ImageAlbum/view_albums.asp?AID=30306&GRP=29587&NS=PUBLIC


I love the picture in the gallery in the above link of the berm hole + Cardinal. Seriously love it.

[David_Tepper]

John Kavanaugh -

Given your history of troll-ish nonsense, you have topped yourself with this thread.

Photography is both journalism and art.  Since well before Ansel Adams, photographers have been using lenses, filters, shutter speeds. light, shade, perspective, developing techniques, etc. to enhance, create and some times alter photo images.  And speaking of Ansel Adams, anyone expecting to visit Yosemite and see Half Dome exactly as he photographed it is likely to be disappointed.

John Cavalier has continued to display wonderful photos here over the years. There was no "trickery" involved in the berm photo. None. If his photos upset or disappoint you, perhaps you could simply ignore them and spare us your misinformed opinions.


DT     

[Mark Kiely]

If his photos upset or disappoint you, perhaps you could simply ignore them and spare us your misinformed opinions.

If? What are you, new? ;-)

[John Kavanaugh]

"Some photographers take reality... and impose the domination of their own thought and spirit. Others come before reality more tenderly and a photograph to them is an instrument of love and revelation."

Ansel Adams

[MClutterbuck]

While I am not saying there is no Photoshop, I dont see it. I think part of the confusion is that the cart path is seen from the aerial, but not from a lower angle, which is entirely possible. Photos are fantastic.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just blow up the pic that proves the angle does exist. I believe that I see a cart path next to the tree. I would also suggest that a limb was removed to make the photoshop easier. Further I find it odd that a wind strong enough to raise a flag is not strong enough to bend the prairie grass. Looks like a heavy pole to boot.

Here's a link to a photo with a similar angle, and you can see the tree that's showcased in Jon's photo. https://www.instagram.com/p/CPF8gPlt0JA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link










With a telephoto lens Jon could make that tree appear closer to the green than it actually is. Looks accurate to me, and I'm not sure how you could say the angle doesn't exist. Did you think it was another tree?

MC,


From above the tree in the picture is the one indicated by the yellow arrow. In reality it appears to be 200yds away.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Its a good thing you didn't take an Astronomy class, (or perhaps you did). The entire curriculum would have been held up on day 1 with the objections and such! 

P.S.  Google "Telephoto Lens" if you wanna know how/why its works. I'm sure there are tons of forums similar to GCA that would love to debate your grievances.

[John Kavanaugh]

The only people who will ever see this view will be getting their ass out of a cart.

[Mike Sweeney]

The only people who will ever see this view will be getting their ass out of a cart.

Well, the Cadets of the United States Military Academy that protect your freedom to say nonsense will be walking Hollywood from all angels along with me (at #4). And yes, one of the Cadets was taller than me.



This is quietly a great Club that you should be supporting with all your private club bravado. Hollywood host West Point often, and they are trying to host an Army Navy match to complement Pine Valley hosting the 2019 Army Navy match. And here we are, again... Your sadness continues John.

#GoNavyBeatArmy

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you not get out of a cart and walk through the berm to the 17th green? I would thing those fine young men would walk the course.

[Kevin Lynch]

Art and architecture are different. If I get to 17 expecting to see a perfectly framed berm hole and come away subliminally disjointed I may go away disliking the course without even knowing why.

I get this.


Several people have told me they were "disappointed" in seeing Cape Kidnappers in person, because all they'd seen of it were aerial photos, and they didn't get the same perspective from the ground.  I don't know how to respond to that.  Expectations are a bitch.  But Cape Kidnappers is a spectacular place even without a drone.

Couldn't agree more - one of my favorite quotes is "expectations are the enemy of happiness."  While it's tough when you use this forum, I do as much as I can to avoid any pictures or even detailed descriptions of courses that I may have a chance to play.  You can never recreate the "discovery" of a vista or hole design that you didn't expect.  Pulling into Ballyhack without having the first clue of what type of course I was headed towards was one of my greatest golf experiences. 


But I don't mind if some photographers present it in an optimal or enhanced format.  Before visiting a course, I should expect that a picture isn't going to necessarily be the standard experience.  I'm not just a hapless victim being exposed to one representation of a course without any ability to understand the editorial process.  Unless you play a course at dusk or dawn, you're probably not going to get the same picture, even without any doctoring.  And after I've played a course, an enhanced photo isn't tricking me - it's serves more as art and a trigger to recollect what I've already experienced.




Tom,
While not specific solely to photography, how much of the "expectations are a bitch" comes into play when you decide to take on a course like Old MacDonald?  Designing an "intentional" template hole seems to do nothing but create expectations.  You know many may hold every hole up against the ideal image of a template they've come to expect.  It seems rather daunting.


Is there a small part of you that would have liked Old Macdonald to be named something completely different so as not to create an expectation and just have golfers discover what you put on the property (rather than focus on what didn't meet up with an expectation)?  Of course, that question is setting aside the reality of marketing - but curious as to your thoughts.

[Ronald Montesano]

I interviewed Jon Cavalier for a non-BuffaloGolfer piece a few years back. The interview was held up because some delinquent troll had accused him of certain things. For those not in the know, Cavalier is a lawyer by trade, and does not risk his chosen professional life for unapproved access. He also makes his photos available to folks, unless he is fundraising for a charitable endeavor, which he does often.


I've communicated with Jon often, via message and email, and he never fails to write back. He is a good guy with ambition, and if any of you decries him for that, the shame is your own. As pointed out, Jon made many photo threads on GCA, before the tiny fellow who began this thread, initiated his unfounded attacks. I don't understand anyone's beef with Jon Cavalier.


DM me if you wish to take up the Kross and the Krusade. It has no place on a publicly-viewed thread.


On to that photo of the flag. It is fncking awesome. It is a frozen moment in time. It is reality in that moment; not the ones before nor after. If you expect to access that course and catch the same moment, well, you might, if the winds and the sun act in your favor.


Go to @linksgems on Instagram if you're still not convinced. A good 70% of his posts begin with "By Request." Jon acts on his followers' requests. They ask for a certain course, and if he has it in his storehouse, he creates a 4 to 6 image post.

[John Kavanaugh]

How many trolls are in that story?

[Scott Warren]

I don't understand anyone's beef with Jon Cavalier.

I would suggest that John Kavanaugh’s real beef is only with himself, it just manifests through pot-shots at whomever he notices on a given day — it seems especially if they seem to be experiencing success and loving life as Jon Cavalier is.


I try to be understanding as the last 18 months has taken a lot out of everyone, but John K’s been like this the whole 13 years I’ve been on this website (absent the period he was banned for exactly this type of carry-on).


If anyone is struggling mentally, there’s services online, on phone and in-person to deal with that constructively and try to heal. Bullying others on the internet is not going to help you and will likely just have an impact on the other person’s wellbeing.

[John Kavanaugh]

The PhoBro love is strong this morning. Is it unethical to move a tree 200 yds in a golf course photograph to create an image more pleasing to your eye? Yes or no?

[John Kavanaugh]

How difficult would it be to come up with five rules for golf course photography? Permission and pace of play are givens.