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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Life as a Shaper
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:38:00 AM »
I just saw Angela Moser’s post in the Hickory Club thread, and it struck me that the “club” of shapers must be a small and elite one. What is it like to pick up and spend extended time in new locations where one probably does not know anyone? And often they are in remote places where people show up only after the work is done and the shapers have departed. Do they even get to play the finished course?


It must take real passion for architecture and the journey.


Ira

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2021, 12:01:34 PM »
Ira,


After spending countless years working with some of the finest artists, I am glad you brought up this subject. For me being able to work with the unsung heroes of Golf course architecture I think they deserve the most credit right next to golf course superintendents.


 The shapers create the vision and the superintendents maintain that vision, without their contribution its just an idea.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2021, 02:11:46 PM »
I have been a farrier for 50+ years and can evaluate a shoeing job on many different levels and pick apart even the most seemingly mundane aspects.  Most would look at the hoof and see a shoe. Most of us are like that with golf courses, some more sophisticated than others. Playing #2 with 3 shapers who were discussing the subtleties of the shaping was eye opening. It gave me a greater appreciation of the work they do, the pride they take in it and how little I knew.[/font]
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2021, 02:29:07 PM »
Jay,


That would be such a cool experience.


As I have mentioned before, I thought I knew something about American Football until I spent time with NFL players.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2021, 04:00:06 PM »
They do get some compensation for their lifestyle.  Back in the day, the contracts for shapers going to Asia often stipulated that they fly first class.....most architects flew business class when at the client's expense. :(
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2021, 05:07:05 PM »
Jeff,


That would be entirely on point with JC's post about relative importance. Plus the developer probably was paying you more compensation so they figured you could decide if you wanted to upgrade.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2021, 05:12:03 PM »
Ira,


Yes, they are.  Couldn't live without them.  Of course, there are a few prima donnas (not many) that I couldn't live with, but too few too mention, as the song goes.  I got on a job and was told the main shaper was a bit of an ego.  I introduced myself, and said I had heard great things about him.  He beamed.  Then I followed up, "I hear you are the best ladies tee shaper in the business!"  He frowned, but realized immediately I was joking, and we got along great.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joshua Pettit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2021, 07:41:52 PM »
If there was ever a great concept for a golf-industry-themed "Gold Rush"-esque reality TV show it would be "Shaper Life".  You could easily do 10 seasons and never run out of good material.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 07:49:19 PM by Joshua Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2021, 09:22:16 PM »
 8)  Paging Grandpa Joe Hancock, Please pick up the white courtesy phone!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2021, 10:00:44 PM »
8)  Paging Grandpa Joe Hancock, Please pick up the white courtesy phone!


I feel like I’m one of the lucky ones:


A) I didn’t start doing the traveling shaper thing until our kids were grown, not because I’m that smart to plan it that way, it just worked out.


B) I was intercepted at the beginning of my career by Mike DeVries, whose teaching passion is only rivaled by his abilities as an architect.


C) My wife (and this should have been the first, most important point) is my biggest fan and cheerleader.


D) I have been very fortunate to work alongside a lot of talented guys….like Jim Urbina, for instance.


The positives outweigh the negatives, for instance:


A) Live on the road for over 300 days per year(if you work hard and are good at what you do).


B) Sometimes, roommates……


C) COVID. Last year, I was on a project when everything shut down. I didn’t get home or see my wife/ family for almost 90 days straight. I also contracted the little bugger this year, but had it pretty easy.


There’s little room to complain, it’s a chosen profession. Jeff B. alludes to the money, but I guarantee you the best, most passionate guys and gals doing this not only earn every bit of it, but they aren’t doing it because of the compensation, the compensation is good because of their talent and passion.


I am heading for home tomorrow for a much needed break. Then, back at it next Wednesday……
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2021, 10:54:03 PM »
Joe,


Thank you for answering Steve’s page. Sheryl and I celebrate our 33rd Anniversary this weekend. She has been supportive of some crazy career changes I have made. And she loves golf and will play any course (but for ones with long forced carries). But 300 days on the road? Not because of me but of walking the dog.


Very glad that your bout with Covid ended up ok.


Ira

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2021, 11:15:19 PM »
 8)  Thanks Joe,


You didn't mention the multi-course open air grilled fajita lunch/picnics like we shared with you and the gang in the dirt at the Grand Project! 


nine-grand-oaks-reserve-cleveland-texas-mike-nuzzo


Mike tells me its all grown in and may open early next year... 


Safe travels, we may stop in at The Mines again on way north this June... to check out those par 3's again!





Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2021, 03:14:28 AM »
There’s an opportunity for a book here maybe different chapters by different shapers.
Or maybe several books.
Not just fun reads but good for historical purposes too. Imagine what some of the folks constructing courses for the likes of Colt and MacKenzie could have passed on if they’d had the opportunity.
Atb

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2021, 05:51:02 PM »
I've had a John Deere 870 since 1996 and have rented Kubota mini-excavators the past three summers and put in about 200 hours on the Kubota.  Twenty one acres makes for lots of lighter landscaping and light logging opportunities.


I don't spend time thinking about much else on these machines beyond what I am doing and opportunities to clean up, create, and leave space looking better.  This is quality time for me.  My guess is that would be true and part of the draw of the profession.


Charles Lund

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2021, 08:30:02 PM »
The profile of shapers has certainly changed in the 40 years since I wandered into a construction site, although it’s worth noting that the primary shaper at Long Cove was Pete Dye’s younger son, P.B.  That made me instantly aware of the importance of the position.


Even so, forty years ago, you couldn’t have found a shaper who dreamed of being a designer on their own someday.  There’s no way Jim Urbina was thinking that when I met him a couple of years later.  Indeed, everyone on the construction crews thought I was crazy to even think I could become an architect, until they saw the slides of the courses I’d seen.


There are still a lot of ‘lifers’ who put in 300 days on the road and seldom if ever get back to the courses they shaped to see them with grass on them.  But today there are also lots of them who have seen the great courses and have big plans for the future, because it worked for me, and for Gil and Mike and Jim and Eric and the two Brian’s, and for Dave Axland and Dan Proctor and Keith Rhebb and Riley Johns, and on down the line.  They all just need a job to prove what they can do.


I have also met a few architects who believe they have “Designer” genes and that shapers somehow don’t.  I just smile at their naïveté.  When you have the ability to build a course, and not just design it, then the only thing you need is the ability to sell yourself.  Most designers have an inflated opinion of themselves.


But then again, some shapers do, too! 😉

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2021, 07:20:36 AM »
I was talking about shapers and this thread with my playing partner yesterday who was curious how many weeks/days does a shaper stay at a given site. I assume that there is no normal number, but what is the general range?


Ira

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2021, 07:39:49 AM »
Ira,

[/size][size=78%]Recently,, I’ve had gigs as short as 4 days (putting sand in the bunkers at the new Par 3 course at Forest Dunes) and as long as 8 months (total remodel of a course in SW Utah). Mixed in between would be jobs that ranged from 5 weeks to 3 months. There is no norm. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]As an independent contractor, I have to decide what interests me enough to warrant the travel, pay, etc. [/size]
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2021, 08:06:24 AM »
Ira,


After spending countless years working with some of the finest artists, I am glad you brought up this subject. For me being able to work with the unsung heroes of Golf course architecture I think they deserve the most credit right next to golf course superintendents.


 The shapers create the vision and the superintendents maintain that vision, without their contribution its just an idea.


Hey Jim, Loved the art and artist references. There's nothing sadder, or more frustrating than seeing the pervasive disrespect of an artist's work, by those whose thoughts on the subject barely exceed their own navel, or score. If they were smart they'd treat their design as art, it'd be worth more. :) As for Supers, it takes a special one to know the core principles of the sport and be able to Meld the disciplines into the best possible result.


Ira, Getting to what I think you're after, meeting Dan Proctor gave me some insights into the real life.
When I first met Dan he was living smack dab in the middle of the country, (Logistically really smart) he was looking at buying an Airstream on Ebay. In my mind that represented a swashbuckling level of freedom few get to experience, and it gave insight to the life style required to be a shaper/designer. When I next met him he traded in the airstream for a bigger box like delivery truck/van. He hung a hammock and had room for a dog. Not sure about other amenities, but obviously he figured out what worked for him. An original Nomad.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2021, 10:29:47 AM »
I promise you will never catch me living in the back of a truck!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2021, 12:00:12 PM »
The profile of shapers has certainly changed in the 40 years since I wandered into a construction site, although it’s worth noting that the primary shaper at Long Cove was Pete Dye’s younger son, P.B.  That made me instantly aware of the importance of the position.


Even so, forty years ago, you couldn’t have found a shaper who dreamed of being a designer on their own someday.  There’s no way Jim Urbina was thinking that when I met him a couple of years later.  Indeed, everyone on the construction crews thought I was crazy to even think I could become an architect, until they saw the slides of the courses I’d seen.


There are still a lot of ‘lifers’ who put in 300 days on the road and seldom if ever get back to the courses they shaped to see them with grass on them.  But today there are also lots of them who have seen the great courses and have big plans for the future, because it worked for me, and for Gil and Mike and Jim and Eric and the two Brian’s, and for Dave Axland and Dan Proctor and Keith Rhebb and Riley Johns, and on down the line.  They all just need a job to prove what they can do.


I have also met a few architects who believe they have “Designer” genes and that shapers somehow don’t.  I just smile at their naïveté.  When you have the ability to build a course, and not just design it, then the only thing you need is the ability to sell yourself.  Most designers have an inflated opinion of themselves.


But then again, some shapers do, too! 😉


Well, it is true that there are "designer" personalities, a unique combo of mental processes that make some people creative, and others not.  However, the best shapers have it too.  They just have the additional skill set of running equipment, while other gca's have the skill to figure it out on paper.  Both can visualize the artistic features necessary for great golf courses.


Also, I think you would agree that there is more to architecture than shaping.  Yes, many people have learned those aspects in the field, others in an office, and most of us, with some base in landscape architecture education and office/field experience.  But, artistic shaping that doesn't consider (from another thread) geomorphology, drainage, sun and wind, golfer circulation, and even any design intent focused on variety, doesn't make a great design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2021, 12:08:15 PM »
There is a lot of shaper talent out there in the golf world. My favorite shapers to work with are those who treat everyone on the project as a peer. We all have different duties, designers design, shapers shape, and we build, but every job is important and while compensation will vary based on the fact that some talents are more scarce than others, every task matters, and every person performing those tasks deserves respect. With the best shapers I've worked with, the above is a given and when that happens a strong team can deliver clients great value. But as Tom alluded to, some have an inflated opinion of their impact on a project.


I especially like working with shapers who have worked up from installing irrigation, drainage, and then finishing. To me it's like custom home builders who perform every tasks and know they have to work tomorrow on what they left behind today, vs the assembly line approach where a different crew performs each task.  The best shapers are like custom builders because they know the way to success, and more opportunities, is building great forms that can be completed efficiently and function. The guys who have been on a job from beginning to end, often as a design associate managing the job, while also shaping are a treat to work with, and even tho they can be super fussy and tough sometimes, the motivation behind that is never in question.


Jeff, IMO, good shapers take all that into account, especially drainage and golfer circulation. One thing I wish I could get shapers and designers to pay a tad more attention to, especially in the south, is shade on short turf. There is no such thing as shade tolerant bermuda grass. Some varieties just thin out earlier than others.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2021, 12:13:48 PM »
Shapers are probably the guys in the biz I would most likely enjoy a few beers and chat with.  While I like to think I can visualize things well, (ie seeing the line to hole on a green, etc), its the creativity and artistic side that I quite frankly suck at.

Presumably spending hours and hours alone each day, seems one would have lots of time for introspection and just letting go  and letting your mind wander relatively care-free.  I'm guessing they'd have a few interesting thoughts along the way!

Joe, I'm curious which course in SW Utah you recently spent time on?

P.S.  Best picture winner "Nomadland" was a fascinating watch from my perspective.  It offered a pensive and subtle counter-view to the highly inter-connected society we live in, but that's a whole nother' thing.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2021, 02:24:58 PM »
There is a lot of shaper talent out there in the golf world. My favorite shapers to work with are those who treat everyone on the project as a peer. We all have different duties, designers design, shapers shape, and we build, but every job is important and while compensation will vary based on the fact that some talents are more scarce than others, every task matters, and every person performing those tasks deserves respect. With the best shapers I've worked with, the above is a given and when that happens a strong team can deliver clients great value. But as Tom alluded to, some have an inflated opinion of their impact on a project.


I especially like working with shapers who have worked up from installing irrigation, drainage, and then finishing. To me it's like custom home builders who perform every tasks and know they have to work tomorrow on what they left behind today, vs the assembly line approach where a different crew performs each task.  The best shapers are like custom builders because they know the way to success, and more opportunities, is building great forms that can be completed efficiently and function. The guys who have been on a job from beginning to end, often as a design associate managing the job, while also shaping are a treat to work with, and even tho they can be super fussy and tough sometimes, the motivation behind that is never in question.


Jeff, IMO, good shapers take all that into account, especially drainage and golfer circulation. One thing I wish I could get shapers and designers to pay a tad more attention to, especially in the south, is shade on short turf. There is no such thing as shade tolerant bermuda grass. Some varieties just thin out earlier than others.


Don,


Agree with everything you say.  TBH, I don't think enough shapers or architects consider circulation as much as they ought to, but it's an important design element in a functioning course.  Ditto drainage, and as you say, shade.  One thing that often gets overlooked in the south is winter shade on Bermuda greens.


There are apparently three things you should never ignore in design-Mother Nature, because you can't beat it, Human Nature, because you won't change it, and apparently, Geomorphology, because you shouldn't change it.  After that, it's anything goes, I guess.  I am in the "constraints make for a better design" school of thought, not wanting carte blanche.


Interesting comments on respect among workers, and I agree good humans respect everyone, including those below them on the pecking order.  I had a project a few years ago where the shapers they brought in were talented but felt superior to the Hispanic pipe and irrigation crews.  To his credit, the contractor booted them right off the job.  Sadly, we suffered a bit because the replacment shapers weren't as good (and it took a few, because some didn't stay long).


Construction experience is important.  Killian and Nugent sent each of us out to run a few jobs, and I sent every associate I had out in the field to direct or at least supervise daily, a big construction project.  I let go a few who wouldn't even commit to 6 months of the construction lifestyle.  There is no doubt, it takes a special type of person to commit to a career in shaping, and to a lesser extend, and depending on success, even being a gca.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2021, 02:33:58 PM »

Well, it is true that there are "designer" personalities, a unique combo of mental processes that make some people creative, and others not.  However, the best shapers have it too.  They just have the additional skill set of running equipment, while other gca's have the skill to figure it out on paper.  Both can visualize the artistic features necessary for great golf courses.

Also, I think you would agree that there is more to architecture than shaping.  Yes, many people have learned those aspects in the field, others in an office, and most of us, with some base in landscape architecture education and office/field experience.  But, artistic shaping that doesn't consider (from another thread) geomorphology, drainage, sun and wind, golfer circulation, and even any design intent focused on variety, doesn't make a great design.




Agreed.  The ability to route holes is one fundamental that they may or may not have -- the ability to think in 3-D does not necessarily correlate with the ability to read a map.  Some will latch onto a few holes they like, and think they can "fix" the rest with their brilliant shaping ability.  But then, there are also architects with dozens of courses to their credit who aren't very good at routing, including a couple of the famous names.


To your other points, I think the shapers pick up most of the other skills from the combination of working in the dirt and hanging around good golf courses.  I don't know how many guys you have worked with who are golf nuts, but I'm not thinking of the guys who started running equipment when they were fifteen.  All of people I've worked with have a real love for the game. 



Peter Pallotta

Re: Life as a Shaper
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2021, 02:36:53 PM »
I know that Joe H likes listening to jazz, and the recent posts by Don and Jeff made me think of this:

That if I were hiring or working with shapers, I'd want people who were complete musicians, not just/either/only 'star soloists' or 'unobtrusive accompanists".

In other words, I'd want people who could both be supportive of the collective effort and independently creative with their specific task/assignment.

I'd look as much for temperament as for talent: the temperament to willingly and enthusiastically 'follow' but also to 'lead' in a straightforward and uncomplicated way, as the situation required.

I think that type of personality is relatively rare, in any profession.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 02:39:50 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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