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JESII

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2021, 10:43:28 PM »
Also fairly inarguable results.


Strength of field is not measurable but will always hang over these conversations.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2021, 10:49:06 PM »
Also fairly inarguable results.


Strength of field is not measurable but will always hang over these conversations.


Jim


I respect SOF it's not measurable but does it really matter? one can only beat those that are in front of them.

Niall C

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2021, 06:33:28 AM »
Thomson & Locke are worthy of mention and understandably difficult to rank because of the limited visibility of their home tours.  We must also include the gentleman from Argentina, Roberto de Vicenzo.  He strikes me as the Cy Young of pro golf, whose 229 credited wins dwarfs everybody else on this list the way Young’s 500+ baseball wins is incomprehensible in a sport than may never see another 300-game winner.  Along with one Open Championship and a “tie” for the ‘68 Masters, Roberto had 9 top-3 finishes in majors.


Phil


According to Wikipedia (and who am I to argue with Wikipedia  ;D ) Locke arrived in the US in April 1947 and in 2 and a half years played in 59 events winning 11 and finishing in the top 3 30 times. He was subsequently banned in 1951 for non-appearance at a couple of events and that was more or less his US career. Quite impressive really when you consider he was playing against the likes of Hogan, Snead and Middlecoff who according to some on this thread are greater players.


Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2021, 07:56:20 AM »
According to Wikipedia (and who am I to argue with Wikipedia  ;D ) Locke arrived in the US in April 1947 and in 2 and a half years played in 59 events winning 11 and finishing in the top 3 30 times. He was subsequently banned in 1951 for non-appearance at a couple of events and that was more or less his US career. Quite impressive really when you consider he was playing against the likes of Hogan, Snead and Middlecoff who according to some on this thread are greater players.
Niall

Some thoughts from Max Faulkner and Henry Longhurst on Bobby Locke.
Note - by this time BL, who lost several years of his career to active service in WW2, was partially sighted and still suffering from the severe car crash injuries he'd suffered many years before - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C17rFDKejoA


And to show that players from many, many eras ago had pretty good technique below are photos comparing James Braid to Tiger Woods. Swop the clothing etc and you can barely tell them apart.
atb



« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 02:48:34 PM by Thomas Dai »

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2021, 05:40:24 PM »
Thomas, that comparison is stunning. I actually paid close attention to the clothing. Seems like the wrinkling of their attire is very similar in many spots. Very interesting. Thanks.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #105 on: May 29, 2021, 05:52:34 PM »
Thanks Peter.
The likeness of Braids positioning to that of Woods is really amazing, almost uncanny, especially given that their eras are circa 100 yrs apart!
It would be great to possess a time machine that would allow them to play with each other’s clubs, golf balls etc etc on courses maintained to the standards of the others time. :)
Atb

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #106 on: May 29, 2021, 06:22:30 PM »
Lots of young athletes-not "serious" golfers-growing up in the 70s/80s didn't know Ballesteros was a surname, much less knew how to spell it. But I guarantee every (backyard/recreational/amateur) round played during that time had one reference to "Seve." That's greatness.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 06:29:10 PM by Peter Sayegh »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #107 on: May 29, 2021, 07:37:57 PM »
Lots of young athletes-not "serious" golfers-growing up in the 70s/80s didn't know Ballesteros was a surname, much less knew how to spell it. But I guarantee every (backyard/recreational/amateur) round played during that time had one reference to "Seve." That's greatness.


Careful, they all grew up to love Freddy. Till they didn't.

David_Elvins

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2021, 10:18:54 PM »
To be a true great, you need a broad resume.  Focussing on majors is too narrow and some people get great confused with best.


Tiger and Nicklaus were probably the best golfers. But its harder to claim they are the greatest. 


Tiger bedded women but they werent up to the standard of Palmer's, Nicklaus's or Norman's.  Nicklaus supported an unsuccssful insurrection and designed some horrible courses.  Faldo's commentary is insufferable and bad for the game.  His course designs are even worse.


You cant be a great golfer without mastering atleast 2 of the 4 facets of the game:  playing, course design, imstruction and media.


Old Tom Morris has done it
Braid managed it
So did CB McDonald.
Crenshaw did it
Johnny Miller as well
So have Doak and Mackenzie.  Probably Claude Harmon and Darwin too. Maybe Venturi.


They are the greatest golfers


Woods and Mickelson are a chance to join them but not there yet.


Nicklaus, Palmer, Faldo etc are in a tier below with others that mastered one element of the game such as Gankas, Palmer, Pelz, Coore and Morrissett








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Kalen Braley

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #109 on: May 30, 2021, 02:31:17 PM »
David,

I'll bite...a very interesting post to say the least.

You left one criteria off, how much money/influence they've made/had on the game of golf, which would put Nicklaus, Palmer, and Tiger right up there among the elites!!

P.S.  Curious about Tom Ds inclusion, outside of design, what is his second category?  Golf books as media?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2021, 03:08:02 PM »
David E,


I doubt most would go along with your postulation.  Perhaps the OP should have stipulated greatest players, but not since Old Tom has the various facets of the golf biz been intertwined, i.e., you need to be a great player and gca?  In the centuries of specialization, a broader category does not compute.


I like Kevin's list, but do think further points would put international players in the mix.


As to Locke, I doubt he has even been considered among the greats, but only because of his limited American experience.  He seems to have been known more as a great putter (would be no. 1 on most those lists) which may have diminished the memory of other skills.


I have told the story about Sam Snead remembering his famous string of matches against Locke.  Locke beat him the first 7 (from memory, may be slightly off) and Sam said he was up in the 8th match until Locke holed a 100 foot putt.  What amazed Sam was that Locke came up to the cup on that putt to check the grain around the hole.  Same thought he was crazy to be that confident, until he made the putt.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #111 on: May 31, 2021, 06:28:39 PM »
Mickelson is the only player with at least one leg of the golden grand slam (how do you trademark?). Look forward to continuing this discussion in about three weeks.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2021, 07:11:04 PM »
To be a true great, you need a broad resume.  Focussing on majors is too narrow and some people get great confused with best.

You cant be a great golfer without mastering atleast 2 of the 4 facets of the game:  playing, course design, imstruction and media.


Old Tom Morris has done it
Braid managed it
So did CB McDonald.
Crenshaw did it
Johnny Miller as well
So have Doak and Mackenzie.  Probably Claude Harmon and Darwin too. Maybe Venturi.





David:


Thanks for your Hall of Fame vote!  Unfortunately, though, the Hall of Fame in golf is run by the Establishment, so a committed outsider like myself will be overlooked in favor of pretty much any guy who has won two major championships [except Andy North, poor guy].


Hopefully a few of my courses will outlive all of that b.s.


Ira Fishman

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #114 on: June 01, 2021, 02:40:07 PM »
To be a true great, you need a broad resume.  Focussing on majors is too narrow and some people get great confused with best.


Tiger and Nicklaus were probably the best golfers. But its harder to claim they are the greatest. 


Tiger bedded women but they werent up to the standard of Palmer's, Nicklaus's or Norman's.  Nicklaus supported an unsuccssful insurrection and designed some horrible courses.  Faldo's commentary is insufferable and bad for the game.  His course designs are even worse.


You cant be a great golfer without mastering atleast 2 of the 4 facets of the game:  playing, course design, imstruction and media.


Old Tom Morris has done it
Braid managed it
So did CB McDonald.
Crenshaw did it
Johnny Miller as well
So have Doak and Mackenzie.  Probably Claude Harmon and Darwin too. Maybe Venturi.


They are the greatest golfers


Woods and Mickelson are a chance to join them but not there yet.


Nicklaus, Palmer, Faldo etc are in a tier below with others that mastered one element of the game such as Gankas, Palmer, Pelz, Coore and Morrissett


I don't buy the premise, but if I did, the list misses quite a few:


Park Jr
Jones
Sarazen
Thomson
Hogan


Venturi
Jacobsen
Azinger


And if one adds impact on making golf a Profession: Hagen.


Ira




Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #115 on: June 01, 2021, 11:48:02 PM »
Well on to the 4th page and no mention of Peter Thomson....5 Open wins and 86 tournament wins worldwide. The only player to win a modern major 3 years in a row.
He doesn't merit a mention. He played in incredibly, incredibly weak British Opens. Yippee, he won five! Five events with weaker fields than a lower-tier PGA Tour event at the time.

Gary Player won the 1959 British Open. Few good players were in the field. Four Americans, at a time when American golf was absolutely dominant, and two were amateurs. None made the cut. Hogan won the only British Open he played… because it was easy to win them. They had incredibly shallow, weak fields.

Good players from the 70s and earlier especially benefited from weak, shallow fields. It's comparatively easy to win majors when like 1,000 people in the world play golf at a decent level. It's significantly tougher when millions do. Jack Nicklaus (and Tom Watson to some extent) played majors against club pros (and far more than the 20 at the PGA every year). Hagen won 5 of his 11 majors at match play. Bobby Jones had to beat like three other decent players (and won many majors at match play as well).

Lee Trevino, Tom Watson? Below/after Mickelson. Hogan, probably above. Palmer? Nah.

15 > 18.

Look it up, even Jack Nicklaus even complained about how many club pros were playing majors. When he wasn't busy changing the GOAT criteria for the third or fourth time.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 11:59:10 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #116 on: June 02, 2021, 07:07:54 AM »
To be a true great, you need a broad resume.  Focussing on majors is too narrow and some people get great confused with best.


Tiger and Nicklaus were probably the best golfers. But its harder to claim they are the greatest. 


Tiger bedded women but they werent up to the standard of Palmer's, Nicklaus's or Norman's.  Nicklaus supported an unsuccssful insurrection and designed some horrible courses.  Faldo's commentary is insufferable and bad for the game.  His course designs are even worse.


You cant be a great golfer without mastering atleast 2 of the 4 facets of the game:  playing, course design, imstruction and media.


Old Tom Morris has done it
Braid managed it
So did CB McDonald.
Crenshaw did it
Johnny Miller as well
So have Doak and Mackenzie.  Probably Claude Harmon and Darwin too. Maybe Venturi.


They are the greatest golfers


Woods and Mickelson are a chance to join them but not there yet.


Nicklaus, Palmer, Faldo etc are in a tier below with others that mastered one element of the game such as Gankas, Palmer, Pelz, Coore and Morrissett


Huh?


-1

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #117 on: June 02, 2021, 08:31:54 AM »
They had incredibly shallow, weak fields.

Is Erik J Barzeski a pen name for Donald J Trump ?

Erik/Donald,

Presumably then all those Opens won by Hogan, Player, Palmer, Nicklaus etc count for naught ? Presumably also the US majors played when the US Tour was more or less a closed shop are devalued as well ?

Niall


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #118 on: June 02, 2021, 09:39:53 AM »
Also fairly inarguable results.


Strength of field is not measurable but will always hang over these conversations.


Jim


I respect SOF it's not measurable but does it really matter? one can only beat those that are in front of them.




Kevin - my apologies for the delay. Wish I could say I've been out playing...


In my opinion, yes and no.


For example, a major knock against Phil until his 2013 Open was his lack of time and success traveling the world playing against the best from everywhere. I think he's overcome that objection.


Somewhere around 100 years ago the game became some form of the global game it is today. Prior to then, it was nearly impossible for a great player to travel the world and compete against any sort of field of great players.


The Bobby Locke, Roberto DiVincenzo, Peter Thomson positions are interesting but to secure a place in the all time Top 10, fortune must be on your side as well. Fortune in this case to include access and opportunity.


Like the nuances of greatest golf course debates, I enjoy the banter but have no illusions that there is a factual answer in the end.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #119 on: June 02, 2021, 11:14:38 AM »
Where does Mickelson now stand in comparison to his peers with his 6th Major?


After 4 pages, maybe the correct answer to the OP is....."Yes."  Numeric rankings are impossible and subject to eternal debate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2021, 12:07:23 PM »
Yes but who has had the greater life in sport? Phil or Danny?

Jeff Schley

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #121 on: June 02, 2021, 12:51:26 PM »


For example, a major knock against Phil until his 2013 Open was his lack of time and success traveling the world playing against the best from everywhere. I think he's overcome that objection.

Jim do you mean playing on different courses and conditions?  Because the best in the world travel to the USA already and he has played and beat them to a very high degree. However, on a links course in a major you mean?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

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Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #122 on: June 02, 2021, 12:59:40 PM »
They had incredibly shallow, weak fields.

Presumably then all those Opens won by Hogan, Player, Palmer, Nicklaus etc count for naught ? Presumably also the US majors played when the US Tour was more or less a closed shop are devalued as well ?

Niall


Niall,

Its not an issue of counting for naught, it just doesn't count as much.

But this phenomena is not unique to just golf, its applies to pretty much any sport where you can take the best of the best from 50-60+ years ago and put them up against the best from today and they would get eviscerated.  Today's athletes are bigger, faster, stronger and take advantage of better techniques in training, nutrition, coaching, longevity, recovery, and medical procedures.  Additionally in most sports the very best compete against a far larger pool of competitors from all over the globe, not just regionally.  Its not a knock on prior generations, its just the reality of modern professional sports.

P.S. I completely agree with Eric, SoF is far and away the biggest consideration to factor in on these kinds of comparisons.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #123 on: June 02, 2021, 01:21:46 PM »
Jeff,


I mean in the 90's and 00's, he very rarely left the states to play, other than the Open. That was a mark against an otherwise stellar resume. in 2013 he won the Scottish Open and then the Open the following week. While I don't remember the facts, I suspect he had committed a few years earlier to traveling more and playing tournaments outside the PGA Tour fold.


Has he yet played in the Australian Open? How about some of the notable National Opens on the European Tour?


I believe it would have helped his resume to win a handful of "lesser" National Opens in exchange for an equal number of $1,000,000 first prize US Tour events in Phoenix or Milwaukee...


As it is today, he's won the requisite events in varied locations and conditions to remove that as a mark against.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where does Mickelson stand among the greats
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2021, 07:20:37 PM »
Kalen


I take the point but I was just tweaking Donald's Erik's tail for a bit of fun. However there is a serious point and that is the US also had its moments when the field was weakened because they restricted access to the best from overseas but I don't think you're going to see US players downgraded because they won tournaments during those times.


My own take on Phil is that he is perhaps a bit over-rated on here but has still had a stellar career. For such an attacking and in some ways flamboyant golfer, it is a bit ironic that he's been a bit of a steady eddy without hitting the peaks that others reached. For instance it took him over 30 years to win his 6 majors and in that time he was always one of the pack rather than the man to beat. He never was the best in the world and I think that counts against him when you compare him to the likes of Singh, Couples, Faldo and especially Seve.


Niall


Guys like Couples,