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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2021, 08:28:26 AM »
A crowned green, for the most part, is likely to be a green that is very large in terms of square feet, but plays much, much smaller.  That's ok on a very short hole, and ok as "variety".  But very much of that becomes tedious.


And you can say or think what you want, but for most golfers, "Greens Visited in Regulation" as a steady diet aren't much fun.  It's one thing if I miss my target on the green and end up on the wrong side of the pin with a very difficult putt; it's something else entirely if I hit the green and end up off the green.  It adds difficulty in the extreme, but to no great end that I can think of.  And the next shot from the collection area is likely to be very difficult as well, so pace of play becomes an issue.


As mentioned, higher green speeds have really made this an issue.  It's one thing to play crowned greens that are receptive bent grass; it's another thing entirely to face the same shots into greens that are firm Bermuda, especially if you are landing the ball down grain, which is, of course, impossible to know from the fairway. 


This isn't a rant against crowned greens; far from it; it's just an explanation of perhaps why there aren't more.  I just played Tot Hill on Monday, a course that I dearly love and one that has more crowned greens than almost anywhere outside #2 that I can think of.  But I've played with golfers who hate it, and simply won't go back, period.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2021, 08:29:28 AM »

We need a Mel Brooks in golf course architecture!


His courses usually begin with a laurel and hearty handshake at the first.


Eric, I didn't hear a harrumph out of you. Give the OP a harrumph!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2021, 09:03:48 AM »
Don, There's a great story about crowned greens during Wild Horse's origins. Apparently, the old town course had all crowned greens. At the very beginning of construction, one of the "committeemen" asked Dave Axland not to build any of "those'. After they found the 16th green and rough shaped it, Dave couldn't wait to bring that committeeman out to see it.


Needless to say the 16th green is one of the best greens out there.


Giving golfers what they want is tat amount to giving a child all the candy screamed for, at the checkout counter.



"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2021, 09:59:13 AM »
A crowned green, for the most part, is likely to be a green that is very large in terms of square feet, but plays much, much smaller.  That's ok on a very short hole, and ok as "variety".  But very much of that becomes tedious.


And you can say or think what you want, but for most golfers, "Greens Visited in Regulation" as a steady diet aren't much fun.  It's one thing if I miss my target on the green and end up on the wrong side of the pin with a very difficult putt; it's something else entirely if I hit the green and end up off the green.  It adds difficulty in the extreme, but to no great end that I can think of.  And the next shot from the collection area is likely to be very difficult as well, so pace of play becomes an issue.


As mentioned, higher green speeds have really made this an issue.  It's one thing to play crowned greens that are receptive bent grass; it's another thing entirely to face the same shots into greens that are firm Bermuda, especially if you are landing the ball down grain, which is, of course, impossible to know from the fairway. 


This isn't a rant against crowned greens; far from it; it's just an explanation of perhaps why there aren't more.  I just played Tot Hill on Monday, a course that I dearly love and one that has more crowned greens than almost anywhere outside #2 that I can think of.  But I've played with golfers who hate it, and simply won't go back, period.


AG,


A lot of us are saying similar things here from slightly different angles.  I can see one per course, maybe up to 3, in the right places, i.e., usually a short approach.  I can see it even more on a shorter par 5, where perhaps the crown, deflecting shots to hard places might make the intentional layup a more sensible shot.  Others don't feel that way, thinking its their "right" to reach a par 5 green.


Sean A is a weird duck compared to the retail golfer, who somehow expects every hole to be to his/her liking!


And, in general, the attitude of many amateur gca's (and a few pro gcas) is that we shouldn't give golfers what they want, as if the customer isn't always right.  What business actively tries to piss off it's customers (even after allowing for not being able to please everyone?)  I have to ask why purposely designing something they don't like or is too hard makes for "great design?"  Design is not art, it must be functional to its purpose.  Landscape architecture is molding the land for a distinct, human use, and gca is part of that.  It's a question worth asking anyway[size=78%].[/size]


What would those who suggest such holes trying to achieve?  I believe that variety is a good thing, had design value, and helps keep interest.  So yes, take any design feature and it might be worth doing once per course.  But it's iffy to put in even one questionable concept regarding playability, really, and any course that goes design rogue too often will end up being called goofy golf.

Even for good players, its not great.  Most of us instinctively feel like hitting for the middle of the green is safe, and corners are challenging.  Putting a hump in the middle really does mess up that dynamic.  If the green is large enough to have a hittable target on both sides, that's okay.  Actually some of the larger greens mentioned I would consider being "false sides" greens.


And, as always, specific events in my life bring me to my opinion.  I mentioned a narrow green no the course I worked summers proving impractical.  The superintendent who had been there just before my 2 summer tenure had rebuilt several greens.  Each was a masterpiece of drainage, being crowned in the middle and draining all directions.  Those greens were the reason they brought in Killian and Nugent, because golfers never liked them, even back then.  A green designed solely for best drainage rarely checks all the other necessary design boxes.

As always, just MHO and part Mike Young, throwing in a hand grenade to see what happens, LOL>
 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 10:11:31 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2021, 01:50:11 PM »
Jeff,


I am curious about your opinion of two famous holes and specifically whether your typical client would support you building such a hole:


Pinehurst #2 - the 5th hole
NGLA - the Redan


IMO, they are certainly holes that separate expert vs average skilled golfers. Would your clients support building these holes?
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2021, 02:10:50 PM »
Tim,


I've built half a dozen Redans over the years.  I believe they are longer and angled a bit less than the 45 degrees of NGLA, but the same concept.  No problem with the occasional reverse slope, providing we leave a way to run the ball out if required.


Last time I played P2, I de-greened my putt off the front left.  The caddy muttered, "un oh," the minute I took my putter back more than an inch or so.  I doubt any of my clients would ask, or if they saw it on plan or construction, allow that severe a side slope on a green.  Again, I presume the reasons would be, 1) no one likes to de-green their first (or second!) putt, even if we all laugh like crazy when our opponent or some stranger does it, live or on TV, 2) the GM wouldn't like it, because it adds time to the round played, and 3), the superintendent wouldn't like that 700-1000 SF of greens unavailable for pin settings.  That's the big three to consider right there, LOL.


As much as I have tried to sell a particular design concept as something that would be a huge hit on golfclubatlas.com, it's never worked, and a few wouldn't do it because it would be popular here, LOL.  Yes, many people know about this site beyond pizza guys......... :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2021, 03:55:16 PM »
It seems that golfers will pay $450 for the opportunity to struggle on crowned greens, but will balk at paying $80 for the same privilege.
Line of the year.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2021, 06:54:29 PM »
Tim,


I've built half a dozen Redans over the years.  I believe they are longer and angled a bit less than the 45 degrees of NGLA, but the same concept.  No problem with the occasional reverse slope, providing we leave a way to run the ball out if required.


Last time I played P2, I de-greened my putt off the front left.  The caddy muttered, "un oh," the minute I took my putter back more than an inch or so.  I doubt any of my clients would ask, or if they saw it on plan or construction, allow that severe a side slope on a green.  Again, I presume the reasons would be, 1) no one likes to de-green their first (or second!) putt, even if we all laugh like crazy when our opponent or some stranger does it, live or on TV, 2) the GM wouldn't like it, because it adds time to the round played, and 3), the superintendent wouldn't like that 700-1000 SF of greens unavailable for pin settings.  That's the big three to consider right there, LOL.


As much as I have tried to sell a particular design concept as something that would be a huge hit on golfclubatlas.com, it's never worked, and a few wouldn't do it because it would be popular here, LOL.  Yes, many people know about this site beyond pizza guys......... :D
[/
Jeff,


Thanks for your responses. One last hole/green to discuss, one you are probably not familiar with: #11 at Rec Park, a muni in Long Beach, CA.


This might be one of my favorite holes in golf, a love I developed playing the course many times during the 5 years I lived in Long Beach.


Rec Park’s #11 features a semi blind uphill tee shot with a wide enough area to the left that discourages even cutting the blind corner on the right.


The approach which I typically played from about 150-160 is downhill to a green that slopes severely from left to right and a little bit front to back. Forget any low shot, draw or shot at the middle of the green. These shots won’t work.


One needs to play a very high, slightly (very slightly!) left to right shot that lands softly  on the front far left of the green and then hope and pray the ball slowly trickles to the  back right of the green to set up an uphill putt.


During my years in Long Beach I was a weekend golfer playing about an 8 handicap.


Out of a couple hundred times playing the hole I hit something ideal maybe 25% of the time.


But I absolutely loved the challenge, perhaps because while I made very few birdies and not that many pars, usually I could escape with just bogey.


Yet.......I kept wanting to go back and play that hole!



Tim Weiman

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2021, 07:44:13 AM »
A crowned green, for the most part, is likely to be a green that is very large in terms of square feet, but plays much, much smaller.  That's ok on a very short hole, and ok as "variety".  But very much of that becomes tedious.


And you can say or think what you want, but for most golfers, "Greens Visited in Regulation" as a steady diet aren't much fun.  It's one thing if I miss my target on the green and end up on the wrong side of the pin with a very difficult putt; it's something else entirely if I hit the green and end up off the green.  It adds difficulty in the extreme, but to no great end that I can think of.  And the next shot from the collection area is likely to be very difficult as well, so pace of play becomes an issue.


As mentioned, higher green speeds have really made this an issue.  It's one thing to play crowned greens that are receptive bent grass; it's another thing entirely to face the same shots into greens that are firm Bermuda, especially if you are landing the ball down grain, which is, of course, impossible to know from the fairway. 


This isn't a rant against crowned greens; far from it; it's just an explanation of perhaps why there aren't more.  I just played Tot Hill on Monday, a course that I dearly love and one that has more crowned greens than almost anywhere outside #2 that I can think of.  But I've played with golfers who hate it, and simply won't go back, period.


AG,


A lot of us are saying similar things here from slightly different angles.  I can see one per course, maybe up to 3, in the right places, i.e., usually a short approach.  I can see it even more on a shorter par 5, where perhaps the crown, deflecting shots to hard places might make the intentional layup a more sensible shot.  Others don't feel that way, thinking its their "right" to reach a par 5 green.


Sean A is a weird duck compared to the retail golfer, who somehow expects every hole to be to his/her liking!


And, in general, the attitude of many amateur gca's (and a few pro gcas) is that we shouldn't give golfers what they want, as if the customer isn't always right.  What business actively tries to piss off it's customers (even after allowing for not being able to please everyone?)  I have to ask why purposely designing something they don't like or is too hard makes for "great design?"  Design is not art, it must be functional to its purpose.  Landscape architecture is molding the land for a distinct, human use, and gca is part of that.  It's a question worth asking anyway[size=78%].[/size]


What would those who suggest such holes trying to achieve?  I believe that variety is a good thing, had design value, and helps keep interest.  So yes, take any design feature and it might be worth doing once per course.  But it's iffy to put in even one questionable concept regarding playability, really, and any course that goes design rogue too often will end up being called goofy golf.

Even for good players, its not great.  Most of us instinctively feel like hitting for the middle of the green is safe, and corners are challenging.  Putting a hump in the middle really does mess up that dynamic.  If the green is large enough to have a hittable target on both sides, that's okay.  Actually some of the larger greens mentioned I would consider being "false sides" greens.


And, as always, specific events in my life bring me to my opinion.  I mentioned a narrow green no the course I worked summers proving impractical.  The superintendent who had been there just before my 2 summer tenure had rebuilt several greens.  Each was a masterpiece of drainage, being crowned in the middle and draining all directions.  Those greens were the reason they brought in Killian and Nugent, because golfers never liked them, even back then.  A green designed solely for best drainage rarely checks all the other necessary design boxes.

As always, just MHO and part Mike Young, throwing in a hand grenade to see what happens, LOL>
 

Thank you, Jeff; I enjoyed reading this!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2021, 10:42:42 AM »
Tim,


I've built half a dozen Redans over the years.  I believe they are longer and angled a bit less than the 45 degrees of NGLA, but the same concept.  No problem with the occasional reverse slope, providing we leave a way to run the ball out if required.

....

As much as I have tried to sell a particular design concept as something that would be a huge hit on golfclubatlas.com, it's never worked, and a few wouldn't do it because it would be popular here, LOL.  Yes, many people know about this site beyond pizza guys......... :D


I like the runaway green at Spyglass #4; the hole is a personal favorite, plenty of green for the ball to run.


Is #2 at the Bridges a bit reverse Redanesque?  How about #8.


On the last point, you might tell the story of #6 and what the principal thought of it.  I think that The Bridges is a course that would be well-liked by gca.com.  It seems to be doing well commercially, with Zach doing a great job on a thread-thin maintenance budget.     

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2021, 12:38:36 PM »
It seems that golfers will pay $450 for the opportunity to struggle on crowned greens, but will balk at paying $80 for the same privilege.
Line of the year.

Hard to under-estimate how much people will pony up to play where the pros play.  I could be wrong but outside of local resident discounts or super twilight rates, are there any affordable courses where the Pros play?  Anything say under $100?

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2021, 03:34:47 PM »
What percentage of greens built between 1920 and 1950 met all of Don’s criteria?


I’m guessing the number is far smaller than you think.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2021, 04:11:30 PM »
A crowned green, for the most part, is likely to be a green that is very large in terms of square feet, but plays much, much smaller.  That's ok on a very short hole, and ok as "variety".  But very much of that becomes tedious.


And you can say or think what you want, but for most golfers, "Greens Visited in Regulation" as a steady diet aren't much fun.  It's one thing if I miss my target on the green and end up on the wrong side of the pin with a very difficult putt; it's something else entirely if I hit the green and end up off the green.  It adds difficulty in the extreme, but to no great end that I can think of.  And the next shot from the collection area is likely to be very difficult as well, so pace of play becomes an issue.


As mentioned, higher green speeds have really made this an issue.  It's one thing to play crowned greens that are receptive bent grass; it's another thing entirely to face the same shots into greens that are firm Bermuda, especially if you are landing the ball down grain, which is, of course, impossible to know from the fairway. 


This isn't a rant against crowned greens; far from it; it's just an explanation of perhaps why there aren't more.  I just played Tot Hill on Monday, a course that I dearly love and one that has more crowned greens than almost anywhere outside #2 that I can think of.  But I've played with golfers who hate it, and simply won't go back, period.


AG,


A lot of us are saying similar things here from slightly different angles.  I can see one per course, maybe up to 3, in the right places, i.e., usually a short approach.  I can see it even more on a shorter par 5, where perhaps the crown, deflecting shots to hard places might make the intentional layup a more sensible shot.  Others don't feel that way, thinking its their "right" to reach a par 5 green.


Sean A is a weird duck compared to the retail golfer, who somehow expects every hole to be to his/her liking!


And, in general, the attitude of many amateur gca's (and a few pro gcas) is that we shouldn't give golfers what they want, as if the customer isn't always right.  What business actively tries to piss off it's customers (even after allowing for not being able to please everyone?)  I have to ask why purposely designing something they don't like or is too hard makes for "great design?"  Design is not art, it must be functional to its purpose.  Landscape architecture is molding the land for a distinct, human use, and gca is part of that.  It's a question worth asking anyway[size=78%].[/size]


What would those who suggest such holes trying to achieve?  I believe that variety is a good thing, had design value, and helps keep interest.  So yes, take any design feature and it might be worth doing once per course.  But it's iffy to put in even one questionable concept regarding playability, really, and any course that goes design rogue too often will end up being called goofy golf.

Even for good players, its not great.  Most of us instinctively feel like hitting for the middle of the green is safe, and corners are challenging.  Putting a hump in the middle really does mess up that dynamic.  If the green is large enough to have a hittable target on both sides, that's okay.  Actually some of the larger greens mentioned I would consider being "false sides" greens.


And, as always, specific events in my life bring me to my opinion.  I mentioned a narrow green no the course I worked summers proving impractical.  The superintendent who had been there just before my 2 summer tenure had rebuilt several greens.  Each was a masterpiece of drainage, being crowned in the middle and draining all directions.  Those greens were the reason they brought in Killian and Nugent, because golfers never liked them, even back then.  A green designed solely for best drainage rarely checks all the other necessary design boxes.

As always, just MHO and part Mike Young, throwing in a hand grenade to see what happens, LOL>
 

It's a strange concept to expect to like every hole, no?  Some really interesting holes are those I don't like, but wouldn't want to see changed.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2021, 05:34:36 PM »
....IMHO as to the original question.  I think they are more difficult to build, especially with USGA specs and they require more transition than other greens.  Also, I am not some turf scientist dude but I think they often have more hydrophobic issues than some other styles when using USGA.  BUT, I'm also not sure I understand exactly what people call a crowned green today.  I watched a DR course that had a slightly tiered greens which repelled shots from the edges  and the Ross expert created 4 "quadrants that collected the shots and brought them back into each quadrant...made the course 4 shots easier and because there were now "bowls" it did not require as much precision in finishing etc.  The ideal course for me would be mainly crowned aspects but would need to acknowledge the greens would be much larger.  Actually is a good way to defend the distance issue. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2021, 06:38:53 PM »
Does the embracing of naturalism play a part in this also?


I think its a whole lot harder to make a crowned green appear natural. The desire to tie everything in to its surrounds seems to encourage the need for locations that have some existing features to work from.


Certainly examples exist where naturally crowned sites have been utilised but I wonder if the artistic eye that is encouraged today has been trained to look for more dramatic features


Crowned greens seems like a concept the manufactured courses may have an advantage in being able to create them should they choose to do so.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2021, 03:52:23 AM »
Once upon a time courses were frequently laid out over land not suitable for crop farming. There's often lots of crowned humps and punchbowl hollows on such terrain.
When I was a wee nipper my mates and I laid out a few holes in the field behind our house. In one spot there was a high crowned hump with a deep punchbowl hollow immediately adjacent next to it. In wet periods the hump was the green, in dry weather the hollow became the green. If we'd had the ok from the farmer and access to a big machine I wonder if we'd have flattened the whole area by filling the hollow with the hump? :)
atb

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2021, 09:29:33 PM »
We have some fabulous examples at Windsong Farm.  My favorite is the 15th, a par four which poses interesting questions whether your approach is from 200 yards or 100.  If you hit it to the right side of the huge green the slopes are less severe and it is reasonable to to wind up on or near the green.  On the left side you have about a 20 yard window to land a well struck shot with an iron or it is either coming back to you or releasing over the back. 


The greens are huge- about 40 yards deep on average and there typically are bailouts available on one side or the other.   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why so few crowned greens on modern courses?
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2021, 01:20:27 PM »
It seems that golfers will pay $450 for the opportunity to struggle on crowned greens, but will balk at paying $80 for the same privilege.
Line of the year.


John,


Nice, but not the line of the year.  My vote goes for John K's recent line (approximated from memory, can't recall which thread it was on) "The key to scoring is to avoid the architecture."  While he was probably just trying to be his usually snarky self, it occurred to me that this might be the truest thing ever written here.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach