Kiawah Ocean course - PGA Championship 2021

[Matt Kardash]

The PGA Championship is at Kiawah next week. Here is a stunning tour of the course to get you ready. I feel like this course is a true American original.
Link

[Mike Hendren]

Reluctant to admit it, but I was somewhat underwhelmed by The Ocean Course.  The holes were too defined and lacked the roughness around the edges that would have blended better with the lay and nature of the land.  I suspect it was necessary to elevate the corridors but it felt too manufactured to blend seamlessly with the sand - as those the course was imposed on the site. 


It's a very good course, but I never sensed greatness.  Wish I could explain my take better but perhaps I was biased, having played the sublime Yeamans Hall the previous day. 


I like Dye's work immensely by the way. 


Mike

[Phil Burr]

Mike, I I agree with your assessment of the Ocean Course as a very good course but not a great one.  I think your take needs no further elaboration.  Perhaps it also belongs in the thread about courses ill-suited for their purpose.  Remember that the course was hurried through construction by Landmark as a replacement venue for the '91 Ryder Cup originally scheduled for Palm Springs (who finally woke up and realized that it can still be 110 degrees in Palm Springs in September?).  So it was commissioned as a suitable championship venue (must be difficult) in a resort/residential community (playable for members/guests) in a rare seaside setting (expectations for a true American links).  I think environmental considerations forced them to raise the fairways & greens above grade (making it a a less-than-ideal spectator venue) and also repelling off-line shots into the sand/dunes/water.  That also took away the ability to make it a true lay-of-the-land links course.  I think it was rougher when it was initially built and that Pete Dye spent considerable time tweaking it over the years, a la TPC Sawgrass, and it's testimony to his brilliance and commitment to the longevity of his designs that the course flourishes today.

[Buck Wolter]

I had the opportunity to play about a month ago and loved it. We started on a perfect morning and as we were on about 8 the wind started howling out of the South and the temps dropped 20 degrees out of nowhere-- the stretch from there until 13 where you turn back toward the clubhouse was brutal but so much fun. I would assume they'll tear it up without wind but if it blows who knows, could be sort of British Open like where half the field gets a much harder course.

[Matt Kardash]

I don't understand the comments about talking about how the course doesn't play like a links course. To me that type of statement has no relevance, because what links course is constantly playing through low country marshes? This course is by no means in a traditional links course setting. That's why I said it is an American original, because it is a hybrid of a few types of things.
I think it is counter-productive and unfair to say it doesn't play like a traditional links.....because it just isn't one! I think this course is truly it's own thing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played the course the year it opened, five years later then about seven years after that. Between my first and last visits the course was softened a bit. When I first played it I thought it was as tougher than Carnoustie. On my last play I thought it was only marginally easier. It is a course you can respect for championship golf like the Ryder Cup or the PGA, but not one you fall in love with or want to play daily.

[Matt MacIver]

It doesn’t play like a links because the paspalum grass is too sticky / Velcro to allow for a proper ground game.

[JohnVDB]

Has the PGA announced if they have any bunkers this year or if all the sand is just part of the general area like last time?

[Carl Nichols]

The PGA Championship is at Kiawah next week. Here is a stunning tour of the course to get you ready. I feel like this course is a true American original.
Link

Do any other countries have good golf courses in places that resemble the low country?  Some courses around Buenos Aires are very flat and low-lying, but they aren't anywhere near the ocean.   

[Peter Pallotta]

On the coverage today there was an interesting interview with Callaway's head of R&D, talking about how the conditions (ie wind) affect golf shots by the world's best players. I was struck by the numbers -- eg that into even just a 5mph wind (which we can barely feel) a long hitter's drive that's up in the air for about 7 seconds will loose almost 10 yards in carry distance; and if the forecasted 15 mph winds play straight across a fairway, they'll move a long high flying iron shot 20-30 yards left to right / right to left. Which is to say: a) as everyone already knows, this is one heck of a hard golf course, and in the wind maybe the hardest the world's best ever play, and b) look for the GB&I golfers to be near the top again, or a South African or a Texan. Rory, Schwartzel or Jordan (and maybe Westwood since his renaissance.)  Mr. Dye sure did know how to test the pros.

[mike_beene]

I believe I heard no bunkers. I assume they are raking the self contained sand? Seems like it would take you out of your routine to ground in the non bunkers .

[Adam Clayman]

Remembering Mike Vegis.


He'd be a very proud poppa today, if he were still with us.

[Terry Lavin]

Remembering Mike Vegis.


He'd be a very proud poppa today, if he were still with us.

Well said.

[Tony Ristola]

Almost fell out of my chair when I saw guys using distance lasers.


Bad move. Like the game needs another bit of mystery and unsureness sucked out the pro level.



Heard they did it so the caddie wouldn't have to hunt for sprinklers when they hit it into the wilderness.


That only builds confidence when an additional penalty should be being unsure of your yardage. And if it causes players to take longer... well... then they're subject to slow play penalties.

[Kalen Braley]

I know its still early, but looking at the leaderboard right now its not surprisingly a bunch of precision players who aren't necessarily long in the top 20.

...And then there is Phil, right there in the thick of it, one of the least precise guys on tour right now!     I know he's polarizing, but like him or not, he's always entertaining to watch and perhaps he's got one more major win left in him!

P.S.  Watching some late footage yesterday, I noticed the tan bark/mulch on the back of 9 was very much in play with that back pin and saw at least two players go in it.  I can't ever recall seeing mulch being so close to the line of play at a PGATour event, (as opposed to finding it being way way offline)  Is it less or more difficult to deal with than pine needles? I don't ever recall trying to play out of it.

[Matt_Cohn]

Is it less or more difficult to deal with than pine needles? I don't ever recall trying to play out of it.

More difficult. One chip between your club and the ball and it can come out at a 45° angle or low or high or absolutely anything.

[Mike Hendren]

Ah yes, the old Home Depot Hazard.


Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

They're playing the up tees on many holes, the winds have been merely typical and not fierce, the greens are not rock hard but instead quite receptive, and there are waste-areas throughout -- and yet Kiawah is proving a perfectly stern test of championship golf. And you just know that in 20 years, even if there'a not a single new limit or roll-back on technology, Kiawah will *still* be a stern test of championship golf -- without any need whatsoever for a renovation or a lengthening, or for a tricked-up maintenance meld or tournament set-up. They simply can play it, in 2041, exactly as Pete Dye designed it, in 1991. As Matt says in the OP, an 'American Original' indeed.

[Matthew Rose]

Well when DeChambeau is carrying the ball "only" 260 yards, then something is working

[V. Kmetz]

It's windy site and monstrous intent are adequate to testing the brutal skills, but nothing more... playing golf doesn't make my socks go up and down as it once did, but even still, this course induces no zest or fascination or ethereal man and nature feel from afar... it just feels at ground level as a long, slow indefinite expensively wrought slog through sea marsh amid sandbars of turf...every two and three shot hole a seeming switchback...bunkers that aren't called or played as bunkers, (God if only that sense of it applied to DJ at WS in 2010), curated trees, so wild and indefinite as to permit/require range finders to speed already slow play along, seven sets of tees...I don't feel its the kind of course that would amuse, that you'd want to get back to.

[Sean_A]

I wasn't bowled over by Kiawah, but somewhat similar to Trump Aberdeen, it is, imo, without question a great course. If the fee was Arble reasonable I would like to return because its a cool area and the course is in a lovely spot. Considering the restrictions of the location, the result is remarkable. Again, much like Trump International, I wish the ground game (ie playability) was more than a passing thought for the design.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

... And you just know that in 20 years, even if there'a not a single new limit or roll-back on technology, Kiawah will *still* be a stern test of championship golf -- without any need whatsoever for a renovation or a lengthening, or for a tricked-up maintenance meld or tournament set-up. They simply can play it, in 2041, exactly as Pete Dye designed it, in 1991. ...

It's 7900 yards at sea level with winds, and a course rating of 79.1. Yep, I imagine it will hold up 'til 2041.

[jeffwarne]

They're playing the up tees on many holes, the winds have been merely typical and not fierce, the greens are not rock hard but instead quite receptive, and there are waste-areas throughout -- and yet Kiawah is proving a perfectly stern test of championship golf. And you just know that in 20 years, even if there'a not a single new limit or roll-back on technology, Kiawah will *still* be a stern test of championship golf -- without any need whatsoever for a renovation or a lengthening, or for a tricked-up maintenance meld or tournament set-up. They simply can play it, in 2041, exactly as Pete Dye designed it, in 1991. As Matt says in the OP, an 'American Original' indeed.

I'd say that paragraph is EXACTLY whey a rollback would be a good thing

[Peter Pallotta]

Not every course needs to serve the same function, or the same tastes. Not every course needs to be Mid Pines or Palmetto, or equally serve all clienteles. In fact, the sooner the cognoscenti can truly embrace and celebrate and promote what Pete Dye set out to do and accomplished at Kiawah (remarkably, some 30 years ago!) the sooner the thousands of wonderful 'not-Kiawahs' of the world can be left alone and loved for what they are.

[jeffwarne]

Not every course needs to serve the same function, or the same tastes. Not every course needs to be Mid Pines or Palmetto, or equally serve all clienteles. In fact, the sooner the cognoscenti can truly embrace and celebrate and promote what Pete Dye set out to do and accomplished at Kiawah (remarkably, some 30 years ago!) the sooner the thousands of wonderful 'not-Kiawahs' of the world can be left alone and loved for what they are.

and that is very, very true.
Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, Torrey Pines, Kiawah are the scale of modern golf and given the equipment changes of the past 25 years, appropriate for the biggest events(in the current equipment environment).
And anyone knocking Erin need only be reminded it first revealed the dominant figure of the past 4 years in Major golf.


I just live in a fantasy world(of not that long ago) where Touring pros, club Champs, Club Pros, seniors/women and average golfers could play the same course(without longer walks between holes than the holes themselves), socialize etc. with one-two balls in 4 hours or less. Scale is the biggest thing lost in modern equipment.


But it does free up my favorites.