OT: Is this guy trying to be a giant bully?

[Steve Salmen]

Could there be cause here to challenge the tour's anti trust protection?


https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/sports/golfers-joining-super-golf-league-banned-pga-tour

[Jim Sherma]

According to the tax man the pros are all independent contractors who make their own schedules, while the tour is simply setting up tournaments that they can decide to play in or not. Clearly that does not appear to be the understanding that they like when it involves something other than tax evasion. I wonder if the IRS and other state level tax authorities will see reason to dig into this now that the cat is explicitly out of the bag.

[Steve Salmen]

It seems like a level of collusion at best and bullying at worst among the tours that it's OK to play here, here, and here, but do not stray over there or you will never again be welcome.

[Dan_Callahan]

The players are very fortunate that golf fans aren't nearly as passionate about individual pros and tours as Premier League fans are about their clubs and traditions.

[Kalen Braley]

According to this article on ESPN, being permanently banned is already a part of the PGA Tour bylaws:

"PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan met with players Tuesday night at Quail Hollow in a previously scheduled meeting at which the PGL was part of the discussion. According to several players, Monahan made it clear that joining the PGL would mean an automatic suspension from the PGA Tour and the possibility of a permanent expulsion. According to a PGA Tour official, such an action is part of the tour's regulations and has been approved by the players"

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/31394037/phil-mickelson-bash-super-league-others-do

P.S.  The only bullshit I see is "this is just a money grab".  Well duh of course it is, but as if the PGA Tour isn't in it for the money either?

[Tom_Doak]

The PGA Tour has always been a bully.  In the 1980's and 90's players had to get a waiver to compete elsewhere [ie cash in on appearance money in Europe and Asia], and they weren't easy to get.  And the Tour insisted that foreign players had to commit to 15 events on the US Tour to maintain their playing privileges.  It was all done to combat other tours offering appearance money, and it's the main reason we didn't get to see more of Seve in his prime.  [Well, that and Seve didn't much like playing in America.]

[Kalen Braley]

Steve,

I don't see the collusion part of it.  The PGATour is a private entity and they can partner with whomever they wish.  The best players in the world are not required to join the Tour and the fans are certainly not obligated to watch it.

The USFL already tried the anti-trust route led by you know who....and we know how that ended up.

[john_stiles]

By Greg Garber, ESPN.com

"Even the testimony of Howard Cosell and Al Davis -- the Raiders owner was excluded from the lawsuit in exchange for his testimony -- failed to save the USFL. On July 29, a jury of six found the NFL guilty of acting as a monopoly, but agreed with the NFL's argument that the USFL had done itself more damage. The jury awarded the USFL a symbolic $1 award, which was trebled according to antitrust law to $3. The total, including interest, came to $3.76. Later, the USFL collected more that $6 million in court costs. By then, it was too late. "

[jeffwarne]

Rory's got it right.
Phil isn't even close to the Top 48, not even top 100 at the moment and he's 51-it pays better than the PGA Tour Champions.
It might make sense for him-if he checks his morals at the door and just accepts money for his exhibition appearances(note he's leading this week )


The best throughout history have played for titles and prestige-none of the top players(all the PGL is interested in) need the money.


But then I still think playing in the Olympics is a big deal, so clearly my finger's not on the pulse.


It would be a shame to see the top players shoot themselves the Tour, and the Majors in the foot, all to further elevate their financial status in the era of the already biggest player windfalls in history.


Norman tried the same stunt many years ago and it revealed a lot about him-chasing the Saudi money would be a bad play IMHO.

edit: Not completely correct     https://thefirepitcollective.com/super-golf-leage/

[Terry Lavin]

Rory's got it right.
Phil isn't even close to the Top 48, not even top 100 at the moment and he's 51-it pays better than the PGA Tour Champions.
It might make sense for him-if he checks his morals at the door and just accepts money for his exhibition appearances(note he's leading this week )


The best throughout history have played for titles and prestige-none of the top players(all the PGL is interested in) need the money.


But then I still think playing in the Olympics is a big deal, so clearly my finger's not on the pulse.


It would be a shame to see the top players shoot themselves the Tour, and the Majors in the foot, all to further elevate their financial status in the era of the already biggest player windfalls in history.


Norman tried the same stunt many years ago and it revealed a lot about him-chasing the Saudi money would be a bad play IMHO.

I echo these erudite remarks.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

While they certainly would be banned from the PGA, I don't think they would be prohibited from playing in the other 3.  And who knows, maybe they would make up a new one to bring it to 4 and who could argue against it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the newer league, but the money argument is certainly a bit absurd.  Of course these guys want more money, just like every other person on the planet.  The guys who would be invited to the new league are also the same ones who apparently have no issue signing up for the most lucrative sponsorship deals.

[jeffwarne]

  Of course these guys want more money, just like every other person on the planet.  The guys who would be invited to the new league are also the same ones who apparently have no issue signing up for the most lucrative sponsorship deals.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
Someone like Rory is all about titles, and more money won't motivate him jeopardize his quest.
There may be others all about more money, but odds are they aren't Rory's competition, and their motivations will deter their ability to notch major wins.
One can sign up for a lucrative sponsorship deal with say Taylormade and not compromise his integrity with Saudi(perhaps) money, and not threaten the institution(PGA Tour) that has rewarded them well, as well as those who aren't in the "Top 48".
Not every guy on the planet wants more money once they hit a certain level-not saying they turn it down, just saying it won't lead all players to compromise their principles or jeopardize their current position.
The new league is risky $, from a possible dubious source.
If it fails-what then?


Of course I could see a lower level player being tempted,but they aren't being offered.
Phil's on his way out, but they can't make it with a crop of 50 somethings or fading stars.

[jeffwarne]

.

[Jerry Kluger]

Just call me some names that I won't appreciate but I really don't have a problem with the way things are now with respect to the PGA tour.  I cannot see any new tour offering something which would make me happier or more likely to watch more golf.  Perhaps some rich guys would like to brag about a new tour and their players but what will it do for me to make watching it more enjoyable or interesting?  I remember watching the opening of Tiger's course at Big Cedar Lodge and to me it was not very interesting and that is what I would expect a new tour to do for me as well.

[Steve Salmen]

I brought this up because I worked on the CBOE.  It did not happen a lot, but on occasion brokers would get threatened after making a trade with a new trader.  This behavior on the part of the market makers was collusive and criminal.  The tone and language coming from the PGA Tour sound eerily similar to what I remember in the pit. 

[Sean_A]

I am all for the chaos. The tours serve up the same dull, stale event week after week. Any threat to the status quo which may shake things up is fine by me. I might even watch an event if these players got passports and took the show on the road. Golf is a global game with an real growth in market share lying outside of N America. 25 years ago it was hard for me to imagine being so disconnected with the main tour associated with the game I spend a ton of time and playing.

Ciao

[Steve Lapper]

I brought this up because I worked on the CBOE.  It did not happen a lot, but on occasion brokers would get threatened after making a trade with a new trader.  This behavior on the part of the market makers was collusive and criminal.  The tone and language coming from the PGA Tour sound eerily similar to what I remember in the pit.

Having been a market-maker on the CBOE floor in it's heydays of the 80's and 90's, the threats you describe were real, but effectively toothless and ultimately mostly ignored by the brokers. Sure, they sized new guys down and played plenty of games, but Floor officials (I was one) ultimately threatened them if the practice continued. Best prices called out won the super-majority of the time. That said, some illiquid equity pits could be slimy and difficult. Index option pits didn't work that way.


 Yes, the PGA threats are similar, but unlike the CBOE, better prices here won't likely see the better players flee.

[Mike_Clayton]

Shipnuk is very good here.


https://thefirepitcollective.com/super-golf-leage/

[Bernie Bell]

Not exactly "deeply reported," but OK for a golf magazine.  Saudi pretty easy pickings.  Now maybe Shipnuck will shine a light on China and those in golf who do business there.  Probably not.  LeBron syndrome.

[JESII]

Is the thought here that the PGA Tour should stand idly by and let an upstart tour poach it's premier players?


It's sure easy to speculate that we wouldn't be interested in a 48 person event every other week, but if the Top 20 players in the world were playing it sure would (if golf is at all watchable these days, which is debatable...) be better than whatever PGA Tour event was on. As Kalen mentions, the Majors are all non-PGA Tour events anyway so the elite guys that only want to build their legacy are not losing anything. The Players Championship matters...but not as much.


It's an interesting dynamic, in my opinion. The Exempt 125 structure was created to favor those not at the top of the food chain and the model has served the PGA Tour business very well. The pension for a guy that stays between 50 and 100 on Tour for 20 years is absolutely off the charts...and you wouldn't know them if you ran into them at the grocery store.


There has to be a counter effort from the Top 20 to get more reward. These moves are certainly it...as was Norman's impetus for the World Tour, which became the WGC's.


I just can't figure the business plan. Is there really that much money in televised golf that the investors can pay out this much and make a profit?

[Craig Sweet]

Should we care?  Week in and week out the PGA Tour is boring....Not that a Super Tour would be any less boring.  If the golf powers really cared about viewership there would be far fewer events with more importance added to the handful that would remain. 

[JESII]

I agree with this Craig.


To think an elite player like Phil, who has absolutely reaped a tremendously lucrative career from the PGA Tour structure, has not contributed more than his share is narrow sighted in my opinion. He has been one of the top 3 to 5 draws for 30 years.

[MCirba]

One would think with the pandemic that a lifelong lover of golf like me would have watched countless hours of televised professional golf over the past 13 months.

The truth is, I've probably watched less than 50 total hours of the men's tour and about triple that number for the women's tour.   I just find the bomb and gouge game so utterly boring and almost dispiriting.  Who's the Fedex Cup champion?    Who really gives a crap?

[Kalen Braley]

  Of course these guys want more money, just like every other person on the planet.  The guys who would be invited to the new league are also the same ones who apparently have no issue signing up for the most lucrative sponsorship deals.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
Someone like Rory is all about titles, and more money won't motivate him jeopardize his quest.
There may be others all about more money, but odds are they aren't Rory's competition, and their motivations will deter their ability to notch major wins.
One can sign up for a lucrative sponsorship deal with say Taylormade and not compromise his integrity with Saudi(perhaps) money, and not threaten the institution(PGA Tour) that has rewarded them well, as well as those who aren't in the "Top 48".
Not every guy on the planet wants more money once they hit a certain level-not saying they turn it down, just saying it won't lead all players to compromise their principles or jeopardize their current position.
The new league is risky $, from a possible dubious source.
If it fails-what then?

Of course I could see a lower level player being tempted,but they aren't being offered.
Phil's on his way out, but they can't make it with a crop of 50 somethings or fading stars.

Jeff,

I certainly don't benefit from the same viewpoint you've had over the years, but even from where I sit, we can still see where several top notch players thru the years have lost out on cumulative decades of chances to win majors and other top other events because they chased endorsement deals and switched clubs or became busy with other pursuits instead of remaining focused on their game. Even Rory himself suffered a bit when he switched over to Nike as I recall.

I don't care what they do its on them, but its highly disingenuous and hypocritical for them to call it out as a pure money play instead of just being honest about it...

Control over their schedule is certainly huge...much less  the extra international travel and playing unfamiliar courses.  But if enough players jumped, who knows perhaps even a few of the top PGA Tour events would decouple from the tour and have "open" events. 

P.S.  As for failure, I highly doubt it.  2 decades ago I worked for a start-up tech company trying to land a "measly" $20 million deal with just one Saudi company and that amount was basically described as a rounding error in a slush fund account....and that was 20 years ago.  But even if it did fail, are you telling me the PGATour, or whatever was left of it, wouldn't welcome back the best players in the world with open arms?

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting times from lots of perspectives. Leverage, actual, perceived and desired galore.
I wonder what elite individual players non-golf sponsors positions will be?
And will women’s golf be involved at some stage too?
Atb