[Ted Sturges]

Oak Hill ahead of Riviera, Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst No. 2...


Castle Pines ahead of Somerset Hills, Maidstone, Myopia and Rock Creek...


Valhalla and Quail Hollow both ahead of Yeamans Hall...


It's just impossible to take this list seriously.  With the fact that these publications now charge their raters an annual fee, who in their right mind would want to be a part of this?


TS

[Bill Seitz]

The conditioning category at GD benchmarks everything against Augusta (bent) so courses that use Bermuda or fescue are at a disadvantage.

Not exactly.  If you look at the actual instruction on this criterion, Ron Whitten has been pretty adamant over the last few years that Augusta is absolutely NOT the standard, and they've taken a much more "brown is beautiful" approach.  That, unfortunately, does not keep individual raters from using Augusta as their own personal standard.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I remember being in a meeting at work where an older guy who people often dismissed said "everyone does what they think is right, otherwise they wouldn't do it."


These lists generate so much discussion because everyone thinks their opinion is the correct opinion, and therefore differing opinions are wrong.  People do understand that golf course preferences are subjective right?


In my opinion the "right" opinion is the one that can convince a majority of people, or at least enough people with influence, that it's the "right" opinion.

[Garland Bayley]

While my preferences are more in line with the other magazines it's nice to have some variety out there.  GD has its own unique brand that favors championship golf courses.  I like it.

Come on Brent, "championship" is meaningless jargon. When I searched for the meaning of "championship" at my club, I was told it was a course longer than 6000 yards. So what you are saying is that GD doesn't like courses with less than par 71?

[Garland Bayley]

...

I always figured it was a bit like pissing and moaning about the gals in the Miss America Pageant and who should win or be runner up. And it usually comes down to some guy saying "well West Coast blondes are the best", and some other guy " to hell with you, its the Southern Red headed Belles", and off it goes down the rabbit hole.

...

Everyone knows the qualification is to be a violin prodigy, and study violin at Julliard.

Then sue the hell out of Roger Ailes.

[Mark Mammel]

...

I always figured it was a bit like pissing and moaning about the gals in the Miss America Pageant and who should win or be runner up. And it usually comes down to some guy saying "well West Coast blondes are the best", and some other guy " to hell with you, its the Southern Red headed Belles", and off it goes down the rabbit hole.

...

Everyone knows the qualification is to be a violin prodigy, and study violin at Julliard.

Then sue the hell out of Roger Ailes.

I don't know what this means, but I like it.

[Steve Greif]

Butler above Shoreacres?!? Come on...


Spring Hill at #100....sure.............................. 

I received a note from Steve and Derek with a screenshot of my comment above which they understandably not happy with.


I let them know that I didn't think I am a good fit for their current panel and I decided it was best I step away.


Golf Digest's list (or any ranking that matter) was never "perfect" but it is a shame to see the direction the list and the overall quality of the panel as gone. I hung around on the panel as I was hopeful that Derek, whom I respect, would attempt to make a positive impact on the quality of the list/panel but I'm not seeing it. As others have noted, the guy who pays $1,300 to get on the panel they are already not in it for the right reasons and current list reflects that.

It's too bad as I had had some good times as a panelist and I always enjoyed the "evaluation" process. I never would have stopped into Cedar Rapids CC in ~2016 unless it was on the GD "best new renovation" candidates and I found time to stop in while driving through Iowa. And if I hadn't done that I wouldn't have met Vaughn and it probably would of taken us a couple of more years to become friends   

I wish GD the best of luck. As Mr. Shelman said above, each list has their own flavor. My taste profile just happens to be much different than what they are serving these days.

Thanks PCC!  The pleasure is all ours. We were having a great run at CRCC until the storm. The forensics are pretty clear and I can tie our buzz to a specific progression of evangelism by You, Jack Crisham, Joe Andriole, Shelman, Tom D, and Corey's Ross Super list, all on GCAtlas.  Brad Klein, GW and the GolfWeek Top 100 Raters did a bucket ton of heavy lifting of our profile.

The world of GCA in general is in an interesting place. Though nobody wants to be stuck at the bar with us in the 19th Hole, demand has blazed a spotlight on good golf architecture.  Classic and now even Modern golf course restoration is booming to the point that RFP shooting wars have broken out. Golf archies (and others) that used to eschew restoration are lobbing in bids. 
Munys, resorts and clubs are sold out of tee times, weeks, months years in advance.

While I was a rater for "Magazine A", I had a fantastic time hosting Jim Franklin and Andy Troeger From "Magazine B". Pat, besides you, Ryan Hillenbrand, and the GCA crew, they were our first visiting panelists from "Magazine B", who were kind enough to come, way the hell out of the way, to Iowa because we had been added to their list. That meant a ton to us. It was a fantastic round of shared experiences, conversation and learned GCA chatter.  But the conversation and ideas were informed with refreshing amounts of nuance.

Now, as I am a panelist for "Magazine C" (Not like I can hide it...), as unhinged as I can be, I will show restraint but share this opinion,  as architectural appreciation continues to nudge into the mainstream, selection of any panelist representing a "List maker" needs to be as selective as it was when you and others we know joined the panel.

I am a veteran of what was a bloody restoration war. I'm not guessing about what it takes to restore a classic course. We are in the process of having to do it again. The best thing about BUDA's, Mashies and the Dixie is that they bring true GCA types together on neutral ground, raters, panelists and unaffiliated. What cranks me sideways is when a card carrying panelist waltzes onto my home course, the one with my blood splattered all over the land, and tries to tell me that "the only way to truly evaluate my course is from the tips". They embarrass themselves and trigger my GTFOH reflex.

Informed GCA/Rater/Panelist Opinions and Lists have Value
We are now in the first of a two year repair/renovation of our award winning restoration after last year's Derecho. Every Rater/Panelsit/Top100 visitor that played and shared their thoughts have made priceless and positive contributions to our current effort in some interesting ways:
1: Their/your recognition and appreciation of our investment has raised the golf IQ of our membership
      (Other People's opinions and outsider thoughts carry weight and validation)
2: Though never as high as we would like it, that increased golf IQ has accelerated support for the drastic changes we need to make to the course based on the violence visited upon our entire property by Mother Nature.
3: The membership is proud of the previous work by Ron Prichard and Tom Feller and heartily supports the next iteration.
4: The first time, we had near fist fights and calls for resignation for "Ruining the Course" (Then a Donald Ross Tree Farm)
    - There are members I still refuse to speak to other than cordially
5: Excellent investments in great golf architecture at places like Davenport (Alison/Forse/Nagle) and Harvester (Foster.. and Foster again)have benefited from proximity visits and platitudes.

In closing, I will go on record, again, I am in favor of the lists.
The people that fill out the ballots need to know what the f*** they are looking at.
(You knew I was gonna' snap somewhere in here. Plus I can't believe anybody would send hate mail to PCC, a member of the Mashie Committee?!?)

I clicked on this link and thought I had been transported to Bizarro Golf world.  Some of the rankings are curious at best. [/size][/color]

[astavrides]

Does anyone know when the G.D. Top 100 publics and Best in State rankings come out?

[Jim Franklin]

The conditioning category at GD benchmarks everything against Augusta (bent) so courses that use Bermuda or fescue are at a disadvantage.

Not exactly.  If you look at the actual instruction on this criterion, Ron Whitten has been pretty adamant over the last few years that Augusta is absolutely NOT the standard, and they've taken a much more "brown is beautiful" approach.  That, unfortunately, does not keep individual raters from using Augusta as their own personal standard.

And this is my beef with the Digest panel. Too many feel it is "their" ranking and do not follow instructions. One panelist has always been adamant that Kinloch is the best course he has ever played. We played San Francisco GC together and I asked him what he thought. He didn't like it because it wasn't green and lush. I rolled my eyes. Are you kidding me? I tried to explain the definition of condition and he said he did not agree. Then get off the panel and start your own list.

[astavrides]

Does anyone know when the G.D. Top 100 publics and Best in State rankings come out?

G.D. best in state are now posted on their website.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/california-best-courses-in-state-rankings?utm_medium=interactive&utm_source=100greatest


Golf Magazine Top Munis has also been posted.
https://golf.com/travel/courses/americas-30-best-municipal-golf-courses/


Still waiting for Golf Digest Top 100 public...

[Brent Carlson]

Does anyone know when the G.D. Top 100 publics and Best in State rankings come out?

G.D. best in state are now posted on their website.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/california-best-courses-in-state-rankings?utm_medium=interactive&utm_source=100greatest


Golf Magazine Top Munis has also been posted.
https://golf.com/travel/courses/americas-30-best-municipal-golf-courses/


Still waiting for Golf Digest Top 100 public...

How is Rustic Canyon not in the top 45 for California?

[Tim Martin]

I’ll give a thumbs down to the Connecticut Best in State list with Stanwich at # 1. How Hartford GC can find it’s way on without a nod to Shuttle Meadow is a fail as well as them being ranked above Waterbury. Shuttle Meadow, Wampanoag, CC of Farmington, Wethersfield, Wintonbury Hills and Keney Park are all more compelling plays IMO and that’s just in Hartford County.

[John Handley]

I used to be in the magazine business (Sports Illustrated, ESPN The Magazine, Rolling Stone, Men's Journal and GOLF).  I used to love and respect GOLF Digest and had several friends who worked there.  Once they sold to Conde Nast, that magazine went downhill.  It's a shell of what it used to be (well I guess as most magazines that are still alive are).  I fully respect what GOLF Magazine has done with it's rankings and I personally give much more interest to GOLF than Golf Digest.

[Jonathan Cummings]

You Digest raters out there, I'm curious to know what scale you use to measure each category.  Is it a 1 to 10 in whole numbers?  A 1 to 100?  Something else?  A assume each category is measured with the same scale.

[John Kavanaugh]

Any list without WP9 is dead to me.

[John Kavanaugh]

I clicked the wrong bait and now Digest sends me emails on a daily basis. This article about influencers hit home:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/future-of-golf-nine-influential-voices?utm_medium=email&utm_source=060921&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM18117&uuid=01d2e00d-55a3-45dd-a4d7-f1e8a789688c

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I clicked the wrong bait and now Digest sends me emails on a daily basis. This article about influencers hit home:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/future-of-golf-nine-influential-voices?utm_medium=email&utm_source=060921&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM18117&uuid=01d2e00d-55a3-45dd-a4d7-f1e8a789688c

Glad to see Andy Johnson give props to Golf Club Atlas. I remember when he started posting here long before The Fried Egg took off. These younger guys who are social media experts have taken golf course discussion to new heights, but Ran started it all

[Jason Thurman]

I don't think I've played any of the courses on the top munis list, so I can't really say whether I'd bump one option or another for some of the courses that come to mind as likely being worthy of inclusion.

But I can say this: with the quantity of municipal golf courses in the US, and the amount of play they receive, it sorta sucks that this list is limited to 30 courses. It just doesn't seem that hard to ask your belt-notching raters to make time to check out a muni or two while they flash their card to get onto as many private clubs as they can. A top 100 list would highlight a lot more courses and resonate with a lot more golfers.


There's something pretty self-serving about the system when it scores 200 deep on a list that mostly highlights exclusive private clubs that receive comparably tiny amounts of play from the average potential reader, while scoring 30 deep on the courses that are the real lifeblood of golf in most communities.

[John Kavanaugh]

Even I wouldn’t call the Golf Magazine raters belt notchers.

[William_G]

  Unfortunately,  that decision is up to the editor Jerry Tarde who likes the old system.  I can guarantee you Jerry Tarde at this second is calculating the number of clicks on the web site from people who are reading the ratings and monetizing it for the magazine.

Were you under the impression there are other reasons for putting out ratings?

LOL

[William_G]

Oak Hill ahead of Riviera, Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst No. 2...


Castle Pines ahead of Somerset Hills, Maidstone, Myopia and Rock Creek...


Valhalla and Quail Hollow both ahead of Yeamans Hall...


It's just impossible to take this list seriously.  With the fact that these publications now charge their raters an annual fee, who in their right mind would want to be a part of this?


TS

Tabloid Golf Rankings

[JC Jones]

Even I wouldn’t call the Golf Magazine raters belt notchers.

Too nice of a term?


The Golf Magazine raters are the notchiest of the belt notchers.

[Dan_Callahan]

I agree that the Connecticut list is silly. Assuming the fairway grass isn't waist high, Yale should be #1 every time, in my opinion. I also think Wampanoag is vastly underrated.

In Maine ... Sunday River #1 ... I just don't get it. I've only played it once, so maybe I missed something. My takeaway impression was lots of severely elevated tee shots, hitting to shallow(ish) perpendicular fairways, where short was in junk and long is in the woods. And it seemed very unwalkable. I'm playing both Cape Arundel and Belgrade in a couple of weeks, and I'm pretty confident I'd rank both ahead of Sunday River.

In NH, Wentworth is very, very fun and I'm surprised it isn't listed. I know it's short, and it has some pedestrian inland holes. But when you get out on the water it is spectacular. I also really loved the courses at Bretwood. I know the raters are reluctant to place a $60 public course ahead of a very expensive private, but ... I think I would.

And in Mass ... I just don't get the reverence for Old Sandwich. I've played it once. I loved it. I would not choose it over Myopia, Kittansett, Eastward Ho, and Essex.

[Jeff Segol]

I gave up on GD when they put Holly Sonders and Paulina Gretzky on the cover in consecutive months. That indicated they were no longer a serious golf magazine. Golf Magazine had its issues also, but has improved with the new ownership and David Denunzio as editor, including adding Ran as their architecture guru. What I miss most is not getting Golfweek in the mail weekly, as I don't reallly like reading golf magazines on line.

[jeffwarne]

I don't think I've played any of the courses on the top munis list, so I can't really say whether I'd bump one option or another for some of the courses that come to mind as likely being worthy of inclusion.

But I can say this: with the quantity of municipal golf courses in the US, and the amount of play they receive, it sorta sucks that this list is limited to 30 courses. It just doesn't seem that hard to ask your belt-notching raters to make time to check out a muni or two while they flash their card to get onto as many private clubs as they can. A top 100 list would highlight a lot more courses and resonate with a lot more golfers.


There's something pretty self-serving about the system when it scores 200 deep on a list that mostly highlights exclusive private clubs that receive comparably tiny amounts of play from the average potential reader, while scoring 30 deep on the courses that are the real lifeblood of golf in most communities.

Ditto
But for $1300, you gotta provide private access over public.
I'll take unranked muni Shennecossett over at least 100 of the Top 200,but few raters have heard of it,much less wasted a rater visit there with a Hamptons vacation a ferry ride away....

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