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Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2021, 12:14:49 PM »

Ireland not included. [/size]

The Council recommendation covers all Member States (except Ireland), as well as the 4 non-EU states that have joined the Schengen area: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. For the purpose of the travel restriction, these countries are covered in a similar way as the Member States.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: International Travel
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2021, 12:41:42 PM »
Ireland's new rule as of this week is that vaccinated travelers will not have to do the mandatory hotel quarantine, but must quarantine at their destination for a minimum of 5 days, and then test negative for the virus.


I am curious, how many here will travel if there is a 5-day quarantine before you get to play golf?

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2021, 01:12:00 PM »
I probably will not. Still debating it. But 5 days holed up in a hotel is an awfully long time. I get why they are doing it, but it might be enough of a hurdle for me to push back my trip to 2022. Unfortunately.


Have you ever had one of your courses open and you not only likely can't be at the opening, but haven't even been on the property in over a year? I imagine that must be frustrating, especially with a site as great as St. Patrick's.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: International Travel
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2021, 02:54:59 PM »
I probably will not. Still debating it. But 5 days holed up in a hotel is an awfully long time. I get why they are doing it, but it might be enough of a hurdle for me to push back my trip to 2022. Unfortunately.


Have you ever had one of your courses open and you not only likely can't be at the opening, but haven't even been on the property in over a year? I imagine that must be frustrating, especially with a site as great as St. Patrick's.




The only one was the Bay of Dreams, in Mexico.  I know several people who played it pre-opening, but between the financial crisis and the drug war they closed it before the official "opening" and before I ever got to see it done.  Likewise, Wicked Pony had nine holes grassed when the pandemic hit, but I never saw them grassed.  Hopefully St. Patrick's will not be a similar footnote.


It's not just St. Patrick's, either.  Half my business was international work, but none of it is "essential" so I've been in limbo on lots of things.  And while that sucks, I reluctantly agree that other countries have reasons to set their own rules.


Also, what makes you think the rules will be more lax in 2022 than in 2021?  Ireland is making their rules knowing that our vaccine is not proven to prevent transmission of the virus.  It seems that most of this thread is populated by posters who either speed-read over that part of the fine print, or who don't care.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2021, 03:04:24 PM »


Also, what makes you think the rules will be more lax in 2022 than in 2021?  Ireland is making their rules knowing that our vaccine is not proven to prevent transmission of the virus.  It seems that most of this thread is populated by posters who either speed-read over that part of the fine print, or who don't care.


I suppose it’s a combination of blind optimism and the reality that Ireland relies heavily on tourism dollars. Three consecutive summers of limited travel would be crippling to their economy. But who knows. Tough to say what things will look like a year from now, but summer 2021 isn’t looking great.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2021, 05:10:00 PM »
Making plans for Donegal to include St Patricks' for September 2021, and keeping fingers crossed.

I have read the fine print on my vax (JNJ).  66.3% effective at preventing COVID-19 illness and of those who did get the bug, no one was hospitalized or died.  I don't consider myself ignorant or cavalier.  I have faith in JNJ and those are odds and potential outcomes I accept.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2021, 05:46:30 PM »
Yes Bernie, but you travelling to Ireland is not about whether you are vaccinated. It’s about the people in Ireland who aren’t. And it’s about the restriction of moving new strains around the globe.


I really don’t think you will find the 5 day quarantine lifted this year. But I could be wrong. I would dearly love to visit my parents in Scotland who I have not seen since 2019.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2021, 06:02:15 PM »
Ally - My understanding is that the most recent studies show no evidence that fully vaccinated people transmit the virus.  That said, if Ireland ends up a no-go for me in 2021, then it's a no-go.  Best of luck with Scotland.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: International Travel
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2021, 06:58:18 PM »
Ally - My understanding is that the most recent studies show no evidence that fully vaccinated people transmit the virus.  That said, if Ireland ends up a no-go for me in 2021, then it's a no-go.  Best of luck with Scotland.


Do you have a citation for that?  I would start living my life very differently if I was fairly certain that my travel did not harm others.  However, most of the information about the vaccines in the mainstream media and from the CDC seems little more than cheerleading.  They keep telling us how safe and effective they are, leaving out the big * about the Emergency Use Authorization, and any data.


From the beginning of this, I've figured that New Zealand will do the right thing to protect its citizens.  As of now, vaccine or not, they require a two-week quarantine in an airport hotel before you enter the country at large, unless you're coming from Australia.  I hope we are all able to travel safely soon, but also that it does not require lying to ourselves.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2021, 08:20:26 PM »
Here's a recent answer from an expert at Hopkins.

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals.html

"I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the fact that vaccinated individuals are not able to spread the virus."

There are probably other takes out there from equally qualified experts.  I don't profess expertise.  If people want to wait for definitive answers, they might be waiting for a very long time.  "Lying to ourselves"?  That's a little strong.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 08:27:24 PM by Bernie Bell »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: International Travel
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2021, 09:20:49 PM »
Here's a recent answer from an expert at Hopkins.

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals.html

"I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the fact that vaccinated individuals are not able to spread the virus."

There are probably other takes out there from equally qualified experts.  I don't profess expertise.  If people want to wait for definitive answers, they might be waiting for a very long time.  "Lying to ourselves"?  That's a little strong.




Well, she's maybe an expert in public health, but not on the virus.  And from the Bloomberg School of Public Health, no less!  And she didn't cite any data, just toed the party line.


Lying to ourselves would include little white lies that make us feel better about it all.  From what I've observed in forty years of international travel, Americans are the world leaders in that category.  It's one of the foundations of American exceptionalism.  ;)


Don't get me wrong; I took the vaccine as soon as I could, and I hope more people do, because I believe it's our best chance of getting back to our lives.  But if I was the prime minister of another country, I would want more data than I can get about whether vaccinated visitors can bring the virus with them.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2021, 09:24:08 PM »
It looks likely that most of the world will drop mandatory quarantine for vaccinated travelers within the next 6 months. The EU and UK will lead the way within the next two months and there will be immense pressure on others to follow. There is too much money on the table and if your particular county is somewhat dependent on tourism, you have to figure out how to live with whatever risk comes from allowing vaccinated travelers in. The best way to offset that risk is to get your population vaccinated as fast as possible. The counties that win that race will prosper as well as protect their citizens.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2021, 09:44:50 PM »
What's the "lie" here, Tom?  If I believe, based on my reading from this doctor from a leading school of public health (and others), that the preponderance of scientific evidence supports the conclusion that fully vaccinated people don't spread the virus, is that false?  If it's not false, can it be a lie?  I understand that just because data don't show my statement to be false doesn't make it true.  But you can conduct your own affairs on the basis that you are not convinced that my statement is true without maligning those who differ, American or otherwise, as dishonest or delusional. 

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2021, 10:25:38 PM »
Well, she's maybe an expert in public health, but not on the virus.  And from the Bloomberg School of Public Health, no less!  And she didn't cite any data, just toed the party line.
Well... first of all, Dr. Adalja is a "he," not a "she." (Not that that is really relevant)

He is listed as "a senior scholar at the Center for Health Security and an adjunct professor in Environmental Health and Engineering. He is also an affiliate of the Johns Hopkins Center for Global Health."

The mission statement for the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security reads as follows:   Our Mission: To protect people’s health from epidemics and disasters and ensure that communities are resilient to major challenges.

I don't think anyone is toeing a "line" here. Why would he? Who's "line" would that be anyway?

There were 72,000 individuals who participated in the clinical trials for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. 2 individuals... TWO out of 72,000 had to be hospitalized after being exposed to the virus. TWO. ZERO died. The vaccines are not a cure for COVID, but they are damn close.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2021, 10:50:04 PM »
From the New York Times...

Irrational Covid Fears

Why do so many vaccinated people remain fearful? Listen to the professor’s story.

Guido Calabresi, a federal judge and Yale law professor, invented a little fable that he has been telling law students for more than three decades.

He tells the students to imagine a god coming forth to offer society a wondrous invention that would improve everyday life in almost every way. It would allow people to spend more time with friends and family, see new places and do jobs they otherwise could not do. But it would also come with a high cost. In exchange for bestowing this invention on society, the god would choose 1,000 young men and women and strike them dead.
Calabresi then asks: Would you take the deal? Almost invariably, the students say no. The professor then delivers the fable’s lesson: “What’s the difference between this and the automobile?”

In truth, automobiles kill many more than 1,000 young Americans each year; the total U.S. death toll hovers at about 40,000 annually. We accept this toll, almost unthinkingly, because vehicle crashes have always been part of our lives. We can’t fathom a world without them.

It’s a classic example of human irrationality about risk. We often underestimate large, chronic dangers, like car crashes or chemical pollution, and fixate on tiny but salient risks, like plane crashes or shark attacks.

One way for a risk to become salient is for it to be new. That’s a core idea behind Calabresi’s fable. He asks students to consider whether they would accept the cost of vehicle travel if it did not already exist. That they say no underscores the very different ways we treat new risks and enduring ones.

I have been thinking about the fable recently because of Covid-19. Covid certainly presents a salient risk: It’s a global pandemic that has upended daily life for more than a year. It has changed how we live, where we work, even what we wear on our faces. Covid feels ubiquitous.

Fortunately, it is also curable. The vaccines have nearly eliminated death, hospitalization and other serious Covid illness among people who have received shots. The vaccines have also radically reduced the chances that people contract even a mild version of Covid or can pass it on to others.

Yet many vaccinated people continue to obsess over the risks from Covid — because they are so new and salient.

‘Psychologically hard’

To take just one example, major media outlets trumpeted new government data last week showing that 5,800 fully vaccinated Americans had contracted Covid. That may sound like a big number, but it indicates that a vaccinated person’s chances of getting Covid are about one in 11,000. The chances of getting a version any worse than a common cold are even more remote.

But they are not zero. And they will not be zero anytime in the foreseeable future. Victory over Covid will not involve its elimination. Victory will instead mean turning it into the sort of danger that plane crashes or shark attacks present — too small to be worth reordering our lives.

That is what the vaccines do. If you’re vaccinated, Covid presents a minuscule risk to you, and you present a minuscule Covid risk to anyone else. A car trip is a bigger threat, to you and others. About 100 Americans are likely to die in car crashes today. The new federal data suggests that either zero or one vaccinated person will die today from Covid.

It’s true that experts believe vaccinated people should still sometimes wear a mask, partly because it’s a modest inconvenience that further reduces a tiny risk — and mostly because it contributes to a culture of mask wearing. It is the decent thing to do when most people still aren’t vaccinated. If you’re vaccinated, a mask is more of a symbol of solidarity than anything else.
Coming to grips with the comforting realities of post-vaccination life is going to take some time for most of us. It’s only natural that so many vaccinated people continue to harbor irrational fears. Yet slowly recognizing that irrationality will be a vital part of overcoming Covid.

“We’re not going to get to a place of zero risk,” Jennifer Nuzzo, a Johns Hopkins epidemiologist, told me during a virtual Times event last week. “I don’t think that’s the right metric for feeling like things are normal.”

After Nuzzo made that point, Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University told us about his own struggle to return to normal. He has been fully vaccinated for almost two months, he said, and only recently decided to meet a vaccinated friend for a drink, unmasked. “It was hard — psychologically hard — for me,” Jha said.

“There are going to be some challenges to re-acclimating and re-entering,” he added. “But we’ve got to do it.”

And how did it feel in the end, I asked, to get together with his friend?

“It was awesome,” Jha said.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 10:56:51 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2021, 01:19:27 AM »

I think Tom has a very important and accurate point ... which is that the vaccine mostly works but it isn't the marketed "everything is awesome" view that is being spewed on TV and with the media. 


I should caveat that I am vaccinated, but look at some data from Pfizer's actual EUA in light of the 94.6% effectiveness number.  Out of the 796 Asians that got the vaccine, 1 person got Covid.  Out of the 808 Asians that got the placebo, 4 people got Covid.  In fairness, they list effectiveness for Asians at 74.4% with a confidence interval of -158.7 to 99.5.  When I look at the data, it suggests that the moral of the story is that Asians don't get Covid as only 0.5% of the placebo group got Covid.  Obviously not the case as India has shown. 


When I look at the data, the vaccine clearly is doing something very good, it's just not full-proof.  Tom mentioned New Zealand.  Taiwan is another country that has basically had very little covid -- 12 deaths and about 1,100 cases with most coming from people who imported Covid from another country.  Taiwan has a 21 day quarantine (14 + 7 ... different rules on last 7).  If you are fully vaccinated, the quarantine is still 7 days. 


I've invested in an mRNA company for many years.  From what I've heard, the vaccine gives you / teaches your body the ability to more effectively fight off / defend against Covid which means that you can still carry Covid, but your body has better defenses.  Though the odds are smaller, it seems clear you can still carry and spread Covid while your body is fighting against Covid - hence why some people still get Covid, but their cases are usually significantly less worrisome.  The hope is that the time it takes for a vaccinated person to defeat Covid is so short that the vaccinated person can't infect someone else.  Right now, we don't know how short the time is -- hence why Taiwan and New Zealand still require quarantines for vaccinated people.   





Ally - My understanding is that the most recent studies show no evidence that fully vaccinated people transmit the virus.  That said, if Ireland ends up a no-go for me in 2021, then it's a no-go.  Best of luck with Scotland.


Do you have a citation for that?  I would start living my life very differently if I was fairly certain that my travel did not harm others.  However, most of the information about the vaccines in the mainstream media and from the CDC seems little more than cheerleading.  They keep telling us how safe and effective they are, leaving out the big * about the Emergency Use Authorization, and any data.


From the beginning of this, I've figured that New Zealand will do the right thing to protect its citizens.  As of now, vaccine or not, they require a two-week quarantine in an airport hotel before you enter the country at large, unless you're coming from Australia.  I hope we are all able to travel safely soon, but also that it does not require lying to ourselves.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2021, 04:29:44 AM »


Also, what makes you think the rules will be more lax in 2022 than in 2021?  Ireland is making their rules knowing that our vaccine is not proven to prevent transmission of the virus.  It seems that most of this thread is populated by posters who either speed-read over that part of the fine print, or who don't care.


I suppose it’s a combination of blind optimism and the reality that Ireland relies heavily on tourism dollars. Three consecutive summers of limited travel would be crippling to their economy. But who knows. Tough to say what things will look like a year from now, but summer 2021 isn’t looking great.




Economic realities change.  The typical British seaside holiday town is now "somewhat dowdy" because for the past 50 years it  has been cheaper to fly abroad and enjoy yourself in the sun. Tourists to Britain tend to focus on London, History and specialist interests. Ireland as a isn't quite so Capital focussed. Living in the UK we can't travel and right now finding any accommodation, restaurants etc for the next 6 months is proving difficult. Local pounds saved during lockdown are proving a reasonable substitute for foreign currency in many cases.   The short term need to open to foreign tourists is thus less than one might otherwise imagine.  When the situation calms down and more travel both ways, then tourists from abroad may become more needed.  But I think for many people the game has changed and we'll see some changes to patterns going forward.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2021, 05:35:29 AM »
Given what's happened the last 18 months or so I'm pleased to still be alive. Think of the current situation in the likes of India or Brazil plus likely a whole bunch of countries and parts of the world where what's going on isn't being reported or isn't reported accurately. Golf is a bonus.
atb

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2021, 07:15:08 AM »
Financially for the U.K. the current halting of international travel is hugely advantageous. Typically as a nation we run an annual deficit of £35 billion on tourism.


This is money that is now remaining in our own economy rather than being spent overseas.


Whatever the health implications the financial incentive is to keep the travel ban in place.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 12:35:06 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2021, 09:01:36 AM »
I am supposed to travel to Scotland in July, but absolutely won't if there is a 5 day quarantine because my whole trip is 7 days.  Further, my wife, kids and job simply don't allow it to be longer.  I was scheduled to travel with my 2 brothers and father last year with a tee time at The Old Course, obviously it did not happen.  We rescheduled everything for 2021 and my father at 74 (and has never been to Scotland) hopefully has decades of golf left but I would love for it to open up this year.  One hotel sent an email inquiring if we were still coming, and I wrote/inquired back that we were if we were allowed without a quarantine.  We are all vaccinated and ready to go, but I have unofficially resigned myself to searching out places in the US to enjoy that week with my family.     

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2021, 10:22:31 AM »
Not much "new" news here. Given the ongoing political climate in the UK, it will be interesting to see if England & Scotland can wind up on the same page regarding foreign visitors.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotland-must-be-part-of-uniform-approach-to-foreign-holidays-say-travel-chiefs-3223015

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2021, 12:16:43 PM »
The other wrinkle is, given how quickly mutations are still occurring combined with a sizeable portion of the population being resistant to being vaccinated, its possible countries will relax restrictions for tourists from other countries, but still impose restrictions on those coming from the US.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2021, 12:23:55 PM »
Current Ireland position:
The HPSC states that while there is "evidence that vaccines are highly effective in protecting individuals who are fully vaccinated against symptomatic infection and severe disease, at this time, there is a lack of robust evidence on transmission of Covid-19 from fully vaccinated individuals to susceptible individuals".
https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0401/1207422-vaccine-visitor-guidance/




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2021, 04:43:20 PM »
There are reports that the entire Indian Foreign Ministry delegation to the pre-G7 summit meeting have had to go into quarantine after some of them tested positive for Covid on arrival in London.
Make of it and any plans you may have or aspire to as you wish.
Atb

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: International Travel
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2021, 09:29:34 PM »
I’m hoping the UK and Scotland in particular are open for vaccinated travelers by mid-July.  I have had a ticket from August 4 through November for months that a bought while prices were low. I was ok with doing the quarantine if required as I did it last year


With the EUs announcement we started looking for my girlfriend to come for about 10:days. Problem is she works at a high school and had to be back early in August to get ready for school year.  When we first looked the prices were 75% higher and decided not to sit.  Then we looked a week later and the price had dropped dramatically. We got hers for about 15% more than my original ticket and I was able to change to her date for nothing so we’re now scheduled to got July 23.


I’ve not worried about buying the tickets because BA has offered changes at just the difference in ticket price and if you cancel you get full credit for any BA ticket you buy through April 2023.  In fact, my current ticket and much of hers was paid for with a credit from a trip I’d booked for right now last year.


So keep looking for prices as they are fluctuating like crazy and if you can afford to give the airline your money for a year or more if things go south, grab the cheap ones. 


The harder and more expensive part for me might be getting a rental car for that long.