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JMEvensky

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2021, 05:28:49 AM »


So if you'd simply laid up you'dve been 8 shots closer to Knox!
He wasn't invincible after all-lol-click link below and go to 1979 and click "Top 10"

https://www.mrstatgolf.com/champions/juniors/boys-misc/mickie-gallagher-junior-amateur




That's got to be a great hole card to play if you ever run into JK back home. Do you keep a laminated copy in your wallet?


Boy that Searching For Champion guy could play--3 wins in a row.

jeffwarne

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2021, 07:36:27 AM »


So if you'd simply laid up you'dve been 8 shots closer to Knox!
He wasn't invincible after all-lol-click link below and go to 1979 and click "Top 10"

https://www.mrstatgolf.com/champions/juniors/boys-misc/mickie-gallagher-junior-amateur




That's got to be a great hole card to play if you ever run into JK back home. Do you keep a laminated copy in your wallet?


Boy that Searching For Champion guy could play--3 wins in a row.


Actually, I did run into Jeff during The Masters this year. We spoke about his "retirement" as a marker amongst other things.I really don't remember him winning much if anything as Juniors.(he was a year ahead of me) but he was always a pretty solid HS player.Suddenly he was winning major amateur events in his 30's and upward and holding his own against Touring professionals at Augusta! Like fine wine, while the rest of us turned to vinegar.....
Yes , the records are incomplete in spots, but a cool website for Georgians(put together by Joey Kaney), even if it is a bit scattered.
Kind've got to know what you're looking for and some/many records are incomplete. Assembling pre internet records clearly isn't real easy.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:38:20 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Zucker

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2021, 09:14:30 AM »
I haven't seen it asked, maybe I missed it, but is it good design if you're trying to miss the green?  On the one hand, par is irrelevant and if that gives you the best way to the hole, then do it.  On the other hand, is the design too penal if you have to play so carefully just to avoid a big number?

V. Kmetz

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2021, 09:26:51 AM »
I haven't seen it asked, maybe I missed it, but is it good design if you're trying to miss the green?  On the one hand, par is irrelevant and if that gives you the best way to the hole, then do it.  On the other hand, is the design too penal if you have to play so carefully just to avoid a big number?


A fair consideration... my opinion is the former: "missing green gives lower score for me = ok"... I think it matters what and where the penalty or big number is on the hole, which brings me back to particular features and the design of the green, its surrounds, traditional hazards, which might reveal the design as less... Even though the rules recognize play on the green differently, I would like the design to minimize that difference, that segmentation of the hole into constituent parts... the bottom of the hole in the least troublesome path to my figurations is the goal.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2021, 09:35:59 AM »
This ties into a concept connecting architecture, maintenance and daily course set up.


What is the feeling on here about what a player should expect if they are on the green? Should they feel they should be able to putt the ball to within a few feet of the hole from any part of the green to any hole location if they do it just right? Or is it acceptable to have certain spots on the green, relative to certain hole locations that are just dead and once you know it you avoid that result at all costs?


I tend to feel you should be able to learn what areas are dead, whether on or off the green.

Tim Martin

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2021, 09:50:59 AM »

I tend to feel you should be able to learn what areas are dead, whether on or off the green.




I agree and rue the idea that being on the green regardless of where should yield two putts.

JESII

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2021, 09:53:28 AM »
Jeff Warne...that's a great find...and link.


5 shot win in an 18 hole event is pretty strong!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2021, 11:25:46 AM »
I haven't seen it asked, maybe I missed it, but is it good design if you're trying to miss the green?  On the one hand, par is irrelevant and if that gives you the best way to the hole, then do it.  On the other hand, is the design too penal if you have to play so carefully just to avoid a big number?


Joe,


Most gca's probably wouldn't design that on purpose.  Or, in the words of Jack Nicklaus, the course should never be purposely designed to hurt you.  The key word is "purposely" and that golfers shouldn't complain when it does happen, a la 1930's Ross greens that were once puttable, but now terrifying if you get above the hole at green speeds of 12+. [size=78%]  [/size]


In general, given most golfers' fixation on par, etc., it would be seen as poor design, or perhaps more accurately, not as conceptually strong as an approach shot where you choose where on the green to hit to potentially yield a birdie vs. par.  Is purposely giving up on birdie to avoid double bogey that much fun, conceptually, really?  Maybe every so often, but not too often.  I mean, anything is acceptable once in a round of golf, methinks.....And, many gca's do make it a practice, at least on hard holes with perhaps a pond near the green, to design in a bail out area for the timid.


Then, the conceptual question is, if you are saying hard par, easy bogey (a la RTJ) should that chip from the designed in bailout area be into an upslope, controllable, and thus a chance to recover for par, with bogey more likely?  Or should the green be tilted moderately to sharply away from the obvious bailout to make the resulting chip very tricky?  In a few cases, I have a pond on the other side, so it should be naturally downhill towards the pond from the bailout area, so how does that affect any designed in cross slopes?  I tend to soften those, because I don't care to make too many holes an option between hard bogey and easy double bogey for the player who lands in the bailout, intentionally or not.


I understand some would say you never reward a bailout, but in the end, if there is not an easy recovery shot from the bailout area, I believe the strategy is negated and you may as well aim for the green and take your chances.  In other words, the easier the recovery shot from the bailout area, the more tempting and probably statistically sound that option is.  Playing for the bail out is in fact a strategy to avoid a big number (i.e., water ball in most cases) and architects should reward good strategy somehow, right?


Personally, I don't care to cause a double or triple, but making par hard and bogey attainable seems like enough differentiation.


Even varying green speeds can be considered.  For example, here in Texas, dormant Bermuda can get to 14+ from November until about now, and golfers need to play on those greens.  If you design for summer speeds, typically 9.5-10, you can probably slope greens up to 3.75% or so for at least some cup locations.  But in winter, 3% would be the absolute max, and it does acount for 25% of months of play, and maybe half that of actual play.  So, should the course be nearly unplayable by average golfers for 6 months of the year?  Or specific to this question, it is very possible that the reward varies according to season.


And, I mention this because of Jim S's question.  It may vary seasonally.  I will say, the average course manager of a high play course probably fights some borderline cup locations, and the most likely scenario is to find the easiest ones for off season, or evern heavy in season play to keep the flow of play moving.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JMEvensky

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2021, 12:20:13 PM »
Thanks for that JB.

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2021, 12:24:27 PM »
Calamity at Portrush: Miss in to the short grass hollow left.
I played an event there in 96, 4 rounds, Calamity was into the wind each round, driver and aiming for Bobby Locke's Hollow on the left every time!
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

PCCraig

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2021, 12:29:42 PM »
The best example of this I can think of is the 10th at Shoreacres, the road hole, especially considering how firm the course plays now. If the pin is behind the bunker, you just try to hit it pin high on the left and leave yourself a super easy chip or putt up the hill.


There are a few greens like this at White Bear as well. For example, you're almost always better missing the green on the correct side on 16 as opposed to hitting the green in the wrong tier. If the pin is down left, you're better off hitting it 75 yards left than hitting the middle of the green. 7, 14, and 15 are similar as well.
H.P.S.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2021, 01:54:28 PM »
I haven't seen it asked, maybe I missed it, but is it good design if you're trying to miss the green?  On the one hand, par is irrelevant and if that gives you the best way to the hole, then do it.  On the other hand, is the design too penal if you have to play so carefully just to avoid a big number?


Joe, I think most of the time it is "Where is the best place to miss the green" kind of thing. Taking 11 at Charleston, if I were confident, I'd go for the green. If I were in a tournament i'd think twice about it. I wonder how many in the Azalea they play there actually lay up. At Pine Valley's 5th I always aim for the front left corner, but if I am just off the green I still feel good. At Calamity going to the left side of the green and missing left isn't a bad play but it was interesting to see how many guys went for the flag at the Open.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 05:36:59 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2021, 04:29:52 PM »
It's no Winged Foot or Royal County Down, but in our high school conference tournaments at Watertown (CT) CC, I used to intentionally play short of the green of the 2nd, a par four with an approach shot over a pond to an extremely pitched green. There was enough fairway between the water and the putting surface to make it a viable play.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Tim Martin

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2021, 05:07:51 PM »
It's no Winged Foot or Royal County Down, but in our high school conference tournaments at Watertown (CT) CC, I used to intentionally play short of the green of the 2nd, a par four with an approach shot over a pond to an extremely pitched green. There was enough fairway between the water and the putting surface to make it a viable play.


Tim-You must have played in the Connecticut Junior Amateur also at Watertown which is the perennial host. Any hooked tee shot requires a forty five degree pitch out in front of the water but the conscience layup puts a much shorter club into your hands by design on a tough approach. Making five on that hole does not get you a Scarlet Letter.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2021, 09:30:02 PM »
Short and right on the 120 yard par 3 7th at Barnbougle Dunes isn’t a bad play at all as wherever the pin is you’ve got a pretty good chance of getting down in 2. Taking on the back pin led to doom in the first round I played there and the lay up made sense for round 2. Tom or Mike will have a better view on that though.


This is certainly my most important contribution to the genre - and it's the shortest hole I have ever built!!


The main thing I love about Lost Dunes and Streamsong Blue is that there are lots of greens where being on the same side of the green as the flag is a must, because it's easier to get down in two from the chipping area than it is to two-putt over thr contours from the wrong side of the green.  Aiming to the middle of the green by default is the wrong strategy.

JohnVDB

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2021, 09:42:18 PM »
2nd at Royal Dornoch, short is a chance for par, bogey at worst, miss right or left and you can rack up a big number.


It’s not a bad play on #6 also.

archie_struthers

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2021, 08:04:30 AM »
 8)


It didn't jump into my head at first , given the unique #11 at Charleston CC was on the dais but the 5th at Pine Valley comes to mind.


It's not a bad strategy to lay up short of the green and have an uphill chip shot, although it's still a 200+ yard lay-up. My strategy as an assistant there was to try and hit it in the left bunker. Given my short game was decent and my miss was a block to the right it wasn't a bad play. 
 
Warner Shelly as a super senior golfer had a great strategy here. He hit 5 wood short of the road , 8 or 9 from there to the green and more often than not made four and the occasional three. Bogey isn't the worst score here ;D

JESII

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2021, 09:34:54 AM »
Yeah, no kidding Archie (and Tommy)...but the question is, can you hit that one on purpose.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2021, 10:22:39 AM »
For many years, the second hole at Wyantenuck in the Berkshires was a long (240 yards), blind par 3. The ground rose in front of the tee box before falling off downhill to the green. The green was sloped severely from front to back. The best way to play the holes was to hit 3-wood (or sometimes even driver if it was windy) long, and then chip back up to the green. Any tee shot short of the hole left an impossible chip that couldn't possibly hold the green. So you'd be going long regardless. May as well get it over with on your first shot.

Pretty sure the hole was changed and shortened, with the green moved up the hill so it is no longer blind and has a more receptive green.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 10:41:25 AM by Dan_Callahan »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2021, 11:30:09 AM »
Yeah, no kidding Archie (and Tommy)...but the question is, can you hit that one on purpose.


Right. Sometimes,issuing the layup is worse than missing the green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

archie_struthers

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2021, 02:03:31 PM »
 ::)


LOL yo Sully, if I could hit it like you I would have gone straight for the flag irrespective of where it was. Sure I got pissed when I occasionally hit it in the bunker where I was aiming.

Rick Lane

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2021, 11:01:53 AM »
The 16th hole at Brooklawn has a green very severely sloped back to front.  If the pin is anywhere near the front, you absolutely would rather be short of the green than anywhere hole high or beyond.   There are 3 greens at Brooklawn, 8,13,16, that are examples of old greens that aren’t really able to handle speeds above about 10. 
There was another thread about varying green speeds and we often talk about “not double cutting and rolling” those 3, but have not gone there....yet.  Classic old Tillinghast greens, likely altered by 90 years of sand splash too, but no one really wants to touch them either.....

JMEvensky

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2021, 01:58:43 PM »
8)


It didn't jump into my head at first , given the unique #11 at Charleston CC was on the dais but the 5th at Pine Valley comes to mind.


It's not a bad strategy to lay up short of the green and have an uphill chip shot, although it's still a 200+ yard lay-up. My strategy as an assistant there was to try and hit it in the left bunker. Given my short game was decent and my miss was a block to the right it wasn't a bad play. 
 
Warner Shelly as a super senior golfer had a great strategy here. He hit 5 wood short of the road , 8 or 9 from there to the green and more often than not made four and the occasional three. Bogey isn't the worst score here ;D




Archie, the day we didn't meet, TEP said he always laid up with 4-wood--said he could make 3 75% of the time. HK then proceeded to hit driver to 2" from about 255.


That day our 4-some played the hole 2,2,X,X.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2021, 04:26:20 PM »
It's no Winged Foot or Royal County Down, but in our high school conference tournaments at Watertown (CT) CC, I used to intentionally play short of the green of the 2nd, a par four with an approach shot over a pond to an extremely pitched green. There was enough fairway between the water and the putting surface to make it a viable play.


Tim-You must have played in the Connecticut Junior Amateur also at Watertown which is the perennial host. Any hooked tee shot requires a forty five degree pitch out in front of the water but the conscience layup puts a much shorter club into your hands by design on a tough approach. Making five on that hole does not get you a Scarlet Letter.
Tim - I regret never having played in the CT Junior Am growing up; my family was usually out of town during that time of year. I got my fill in high school, though, as we played it in our conference tournament three of four years. You're absolutely right - 5 there is just fine. I remember seeing a couple 7s and 8s.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Matt MacIver

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Re: Missing a green on purpose
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2021, 09:44:15 PM »
I especially like the “miss long to have an easier shot back” hole, even better when it’s dependent on where the pin is. It’s usually a local knowledge shot which is all the fun.

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