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Bill Gayne

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Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2021, 06:52:54 AM »
Niall,


In America we spend a half hour at the range and practice green before riding the cart to the first tee to hit the mulligan and see you in 4.5 hours. UK, car park taking clubs and trolley directly to first tee for opening tee shot and see you in 3.5 hours.


Bill


Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2021, 07:08:08 AM »
   If you take a mulligan, you can only tie the hole; you cannot win it.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2021, 07:15:53 AM »
I would only take a mulligan on a hole with a car as a prize for a hole in one.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2021, 11:02:56 AM »
I think everyone would agree that the purpose of golf is enjoyable recreation. If your enjoyment is maximized by following every USGA rule of course do so.  If another's enjoyment is maximized by 'stretching' the rules, go ahead and enjoy yourself.  The only caveat is that your  playing partners agree and in both cases you are not holding up play.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2021, 11:50:53 AM »
I have a friend and client who was a law school classmate of President Clinton.  They played some golf during and after the Clinton Presidency. President Clinton was generous in giving out mulligans.  My friend remarked that the shots had been "pardoned".


This isn't so germane to the topic, but I got the unique privilege of hosting Pres. Clinton twice in 16 days, within a few months of his term in 2001 and got to tag along with his group.  My sense of it, was as a political figure for many years, he never was expected to, nor really had an opportunity to "play" a round of golf, competitively or recreationally, the way we do.  He related several golf experiences to us along the way, and matching that up with me observing his presidential play as a one off news story, i could tell he hadn't hit balls or practiced since his teen/college days...and any round (like his two with us) was the ONLY time he ever played.

Not only in the context of playing golf with a governor or president are people not interested in winning the match or posting the score, but holes become like a "shootout"... Clinton would suggest a skill competition for a hole...or the group might even play a 2 man scramble for three holes...if he or another player hit a ball in the water, everybody got a mulligan.  In my presence, if he liked a putt or a shot or the look of a hole, he wished to play it again...or invite everyone to try a 70 foot challenging putt.

Another facet is the people he is with. The first of the two visits, one player was a man who was entering end stages of stomach cancer that took his life later that summer; Clinton couldn't have been more gracious and accommodating.  If the fellow hit a poor shot, Clinton would drop a ball with him and give a little amateur lesson; when he hit decent ones, Clinton would cheer him on and treat him like he won the Ryder Cup for the group. In all of this, I got the sense that he knew he was of course the feature attraction, but that he did his best to have the players feel special.  Everyone else kept a scorecard with their full names, names clearly written, dated with the weather even noted.  His scorecard simply had the first initial of the player...K, R, O, B.

Lastly he seemed to have a sense of humor about himself, most notably in that he played some with a ball with a logo that included his face and the sarcastic dig, "Slick Willie - A Good Lie Guaranteed"...one of which he gave me.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 12:07:10 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2021, 11:51:14 AM »
I can't put my finger on exactly why, but the fact this is being discussed among "serious" golfers rubs me the wrong way. I know some clubs have this as sort of an unwritten rule/policy on the first tee, and that too drives me crazy. You can always hit another if you want. It's just your third shot.


Your presumption should be squashed. Serious GCA geeks does'nt always translate to a serious golfer.


I hope this saves you years of frustration.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2021, 11:56:39 AM »
For some thirty years I played with a friend where we had six three hole matches. Periodically instead of giving him shots I’d give him two or three “do overs” depending on the succession of holes. It was great fun except that he got to play more shots than I did. We never held anyone up because the course didn’t have much play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2021, 12:21:30 PM »
I can't put my finger on exactly why, but the fact this is being discussed among "serious" golfers rubs me the wrong way. I know some clubs have this as sort of an unwritten rule/policy on the first tee, and that too drives me crazy. You can always hit another if you want. It's just your third shot.


Your presumption should be squashed. Serious GCA geeks does'nt always translate to a serious golfer.


I hope this saves you years of frustration.


But that’s the thing... Mulligans remove the exigency of the architecture.


If you’re not willing to encounter the golf course as you find it... how can you be serious about studying the architecture?


Used to go back and forth about this with an extremely talented shaper/architect. I think he’s come to see my view.  ;)
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2021, 12:31:24 PM »
I can't put my finger on exactly why, but the fact this is being discussed among "serious" golfers rubs me the wrong way. I know some clubs have this as sort of an unwritten rule/policy on the first tee, and that too drives me crazy. You can always hit another if you want. It's just your third shot.


Your presumption should be squashed. Serious GCA geeks does'nt always translate to a serious golfer.


I hope this saves you years of frustration.


But that’s the thing... Mulligans remove the exigency of the architecture.


If you’re not willing to encounter the golf course as you find it... how can you be serious about studying the architecture?


Used to go back and forth about this with an extremely talented shaper/architect. I think he’s come to see my view.  ;)


I hear what you are saying and it especially holds true for a familiar course. However, when I rate a course I don’t keep score but will purposely hit second or third shots to see how coming into a green from a different angle plays or how to putt to different sections of a green. It does give me a more complete picture of the architecture and maybe some of its little nuances.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2021, 05:32:21 PM »
After a poor tee shot at Royal Dornock a guy in my group asked his caddie if mulligans were allowed. The caddie replied, “Aye, we call it hitting 3.”
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2021, 12:27:58 PM »
When I'm hosting business associates for an afternoon of "Green Acres Site Selection" one of the keys to a successful afternoon is making sure your guests have an enjoyable time; frankly my score isn't important.  The staff know who my guests are; the guests are treated like members. Refreshments of whatever they want are available and everyone gets the proper opportunity to warm up.


If we're a foursome we'll play 3 six hole Nassau matches, so everyone can partner together. This way everyone gets to know one another a bit and it makes for a nice day.


Breakfast/lunch balls are permitted on the 1st tee. Putts inside the "friend zone" are given, even on 18.  I record my scores since in the US you have to have some sort of GHIN Index, but its pretty easy to see, after a few holes or swings who has a vanity handicap or who sandbags.  If winning that $5 Nassau is that important sandbagging, you're not someone who I'd really like to do a real estate deal with.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2021, 12:39:09 PM »
When I'm hosting business associates for an afternoon of "Green Acres Site Selection" one of the keys to a successful afternoon is making sure your guests have an enjoyable time; frankly my score isn't important.  The staff know who my guests are; the guests are treated like members. Refreshments of whatever they want are available and everyone gets the proper opportunity to warm up.


If we're a foursome we'll play 3 six hole Nassau matches, so everyone can partner together. This way everyone gets to know one another a bit and it makes for a nice day.


Breakfast/lunch balls are permitted on the 1st tee. Putts inside the "friend zone" are given, even on 18.  I record my scores since in the US you have to have some sort of GHIN Index, but its pretty easy to see, after a few holes or swings who has a vanity handicap or who sandbags.  If winning that $5 Nassau is that important sandbagging, you're not someone who I'd really like to do a real estate deal with.


When bringing friends to my clubs I have to know about them. I have one friend where I wouldn’t think of giving him a mulligan or even give him a putt. He is a good player and I enjoy playing “real” golf with him. We both have the same deterioration in our games. I have another friend who just doesn’t keep score and if he is lucky could break 100. I will give him mulligans because I don’t want him to play some of his wayward shots. Giving him a mulligan actually speeds up play and he has more fun.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2021, 01:16:09 PM »
If we're a foursome we'll play 3 six hole Nassau matches, so everyone can partner together. This way everyone gets to know one another a bit and it makes for a nice day.


Bruce-I’m a fan of the 6/6/6 for the reasons you stated above. Additionally no one feels outmatched or that the deck was stacked against them when teams were chosen.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2021, 04:02:49 PM »
My problem with mulligans today is the lack of following rules governing g mulligans that were enforced in "the good old days".  Used to be that if you took a mulligan, you had to play it (even if your first shot was better).  That sense of propriety has flown out the window in recent years so the "risk/reward" aspect of mulligans is missing.


I say bring back TRUE MULLIGANS!!


Paul, I heard that be referred to once as a "Shapiro": player hits a drive on #1, then "takes a Mulligan" and chooses which one he likes better.


To me, Mulligans are silly unless you're playing strictly for practice or by yourself. Otherwise it can impact your index to your detriment should you play a real match.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2021, 05:57:03 PM »
When I'm hosting business associates for an afternoon of "Green Acres Site Selection" one of the keys to a successful afternoon is making sure your guests have an enjoyable time; frankly my score isn't important.  The staff know who my guests are; the guests are treated like members. Refreshments of whatever they want are available and everyone gets the proper opportunity to warm up.


If we're a foursome we'll play 3 six hole Nassau matches, so everyone can partner together. This way everyone gets to know one another a bit and it makes for a nice day.


Breakfast/lunch balls are permitted on the 1st tee. Putts inside the "friend zone" are given, even on 18.  I record my scores since in the US you have to have some sort of GHIN Index, but its pretty easy to see, after a few holes or swings who has a vanity handicap or who sandbags.  If winning that $5 Nassau is that important sandbagging, you're not someone who I'd really like to do a real estate deal with.


Thanks for admitting you’re breaking the system and any potential weather adjustments to the differential for the day for those that are willing to play by the rules we all agreed to follow in getting a handicap. Appreciate it.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2021, 06:31:53 PM »
I think this thread encapsulates the major difference between golf in the US and golf in the UK. Over here you wouldn't be having this discussion. If it's a bounce game you do what you like and if it is a comp you play it as it lies. Counting every shot every time you are on a golf course, even when you are out for an evening's ramble, is totally alien to the ordinary golfer in this country I'd suggest.


Rather than the UK importing the US style handicapping system that underpins all this nonsense why doesn't the US adopt what was/is (?) the UK approach and leave all the card and pencil stuff for competitions ? Just a thought  ;D


Niall
Niall-
You mean to say that always keeping score, fretting over missed shots, stressing about whether your handicap will go up or down before the next game, sternly calling rules infractions during a "fun" game, never having a dram during the round, and checking to see if your playing companions have recorded each and every score isn't how the game was meant to be played? Damn!

Seriously, when I first played in the UK in 1977 it was an epiphany. Score is just a number. The game is between the players. Sometimes it's really about the space between the shots.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2021, 07:15:42 PM »
I think this thread encapsulates the major difference between golf in the US and golf in the UK. Over here you wouldn't be having this discussion. If it's a bounce game you do what you like and if it is a comp you play it as it lies. Counting every shot every time you are on a golf course, even when you are out for an evening's ramble, is totally alien to the ordinary golfer in this country I'd suggest.


Rather than the UK importing the US style handicapping system that underpins all this nonsense why doesn't the US adopt what was/is (?) the UK approach and leave all the card and pencil stuff for competitions ? Just a thought  ;D


Niall
Niall-
You mean to say that always keeping score, fretting over missed shots, stressing about whether your handicap will go up or down before the next game, sternly calling rules infractions during a "fun" game, never having a dram during the round, and checking to see if your playing companions have recorded each and every score isn't how the game was meant to be played? Damn!

Seriously, when I first played in the UK in 1977 it was an epiphany. Score is just a number. The game is between the players. Sometimes it's really about the space between the shots.


Both posts completely spot on. It is a recreational and social activity other than in official events. Enjoying the day and course is paramount. Even Walter Hagen said, “Don’t hurry, don’t worry. Smell the flowers as you walk by.” And last I checked, he won 11 Majors...without posting a handicap.


Ira
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:18:03 PM by Ira Fishman »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2021, 08:10:25 PM »
I think this thread encapsulates the major difference between golf in the US and golf in the UK. Over here you wouldn't be having this discussion. If it's a bounce game you do what you like and if it is a comp you play it as it lies. Counting every shot every time you are on a golf course, even when you are out for an evening's ramble, is totally alien to the ordinary golfer in this country I'd suggest.


Rather than the UK importing the US style handicapping system that underpins all this nonsense why doesn't the US adopt what was/is (?) the UK approach and leave all the card and pencil stuff for competitions ? Just a thought  ;D


Niall
Niall-
You mean to say that always keeping score, fretting over missed shots, stressing about whether your handicap will go up or down before the next game, sternly calling rules infractions during a "fun" game, never having a dram during the round, and checking to see if your playing companions have recorded each and every score isn't how the game was meant to be played? Damn!

Seriously, when I first played in the UK in 1977 it was an epiphany. Score is just a number. The game is between the players. Sometimes it's really about the space between the shots.


Both posts completely spot on. It is a recreational and social activity other than in official events. Enjoying the day and course is paramount. Even Walter Hagen said, “Don’t hurry, don’t worry. Smell the flowers as you walk by.” And last I checked, he won 11 Majors...without posting a handicap.


Ira


Or taking a mulligan.


In fact, the spirit of Hagen is to, indeed, play the ball as it lies!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2021, 08:27:56 PM »
Kyle,


Nope. It is to enjoy the game. Because it is a game. Nothing more or less.


Ira

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2021, 09:58:03 AM »
Kyle,


Nope. It is to enjoy the game. Because it is a game. Nothing more or less.


Ira


Oh, didn't realize Walter Hagen won majors by taking mulligans. Must have missed that particular tidbit of history.


P.S. Maybe it's, wait for it, **FUN** to play the ball down and see what you can make of the situation. Perhaps those criticizing golf and the rules should try them for a spell.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2021, 11:56:32 AM »


P.S. Maybe it's, wait for it, **FUN** to play the ball down and see what you can make of the situation. Perhaps those criticizing golf and the rules should try them for a spell.


I do agree with that sentiment. I enjoy hitting a good shot from a divot or some other kind of bad lie. I'd tell my son that having a bad lie or being in the woods gives him a chance to be exceptional.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2021, 12:48:22 PM »
I'm generally with Kyle. To me, a lot of the greatness of golf only really emerges as you embrace playing by the rules. Score really is just a number, after all.


I've had countless conversations about "casual rules" over the years. One that stands out: a buddy was saying that he'd sometimes improve his lie if his ball was up against a tree, in a spot where he could swing at it normally but would catch the tree on the follow-through and likely break a shaft. He said "I'm not going to cost myself $100 trying to hit that ball." I don't understand that one. The cost to save yourself $100 is one damn stroke - take an unplayable. Or pitch out and protect your shaft and health. Or, hell, man-up and hit the shot and accept the financial and health risks of doing so. In almost every situation where I do the math, that stroke is a pretty tiny price to pay.


I've carried a lot of vanity as a golfer. It took me decades to get to a place where I can accept that it's not the end of the world to card a true 84 instead of an 82 that omits a penalty. But it's funny how so much of the anxiety and frustration of golf disappears as you get better at accepting that sometimes bad things happen in this game, and they cost you strokes, and mostly they're not nearly as bad as things that happen when you're not playing this game. As Ira says, it's a game and meant to be enjoyed. For me, I've finally realized that my enjoyment pretty much is never defined by the score I shoot, so why not just lean all the way into playing the game penalty strokes and all? It actually feels better to shoot the honest 84 with two whiffs when you should've taken an unplayable, rather than the 82 with caveats.


All that said, I think Kyle's drawing a pretty harsh line. I play with a few high handicappers that I really enjoy. Like Tommy, I give them mulligans and gimmes here and there. It helps keep play moving, and keeps them enjoying themselves, and their scores aren't good enough to worry about the legitimacy of. It's miraculous that my mother is still playing golf in 2021 - I played a regulation 18 with her a few weeks ago, and started asking her to improve her lies here and there. She's just too weak to get the ball out of even a mundane bad lie, and she's going to have 3-4 holes a round where she can't even keep count of how many strokes she piles up anyways. I don't really care about the legitimacy of the score she shot, nor should anyone else. But she made a real life birdie on the 108 yard 17th, with a driver through the green and a putter from the rough. I don't remember any of her fluffed lies, but if they let her survive to the 17th to make that birdie... well I feel like I remember every birdie I've seen her make in the last 10 years or so.


I guess there's a line between being liberal with the rules to maintain the vanity of your score, and being liberal with the rules to give yourself a fighting chance of surviving the humiliation that is playing golf.


I do like the idea of incorporating a few mulligans and fluffed lies into my mother's already made-up handicap. If I gave her 30 shots plus 3 mullies and 6 fluffs, it would add a little layer of strategy that might be fun.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 02:09:41 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2021, 02:57:32 PM »
Jason,


A most thoughtful post. To clarify: I do think you should play the ball as it lies. But I have no problem with taking a Mulligan (the original thread topic) on occasion or if someone else does not follow the rules strictly when playing just for fun.


Now, I almost never keep score because I do not play in competitions. When I was young, focusing on my score hindered my enjoyment of the game. When I started back up after a long hiatus when our kids were growing up, I vowed to try only have the positive emotions that the game produces for me. I have failed in that vow (if you saw my short game, you would know why), but having a more relaxed approach has definitely been a plus.


Ira

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2021, 04:31:46 PM »


Oh, didn't realize Walter Hagen won majors by taking mulligans. Must have missed that particular tidbit of history.


P.S. Maybe it's, wait for it, **FUN** to play the ball down and see what you can make of the situation. Perhaps those criticizing golf and the rules should try them for a spell.


There is a difference between competition golf and a bounce game, at least in the UK and that was my point. In a bounce game you can do what you wish without the need to keep a card. For most golfers I play with that mean's play it as it lies. And if they have a lost ball then chuck another one down where they thought it was and play from there. If there playing a match with pals then the hole is lost and if not playing a match then they are still getting some enjoyment out of the simple pleasure of hitting the ball. If in a match your opponent has already won the hole you pick up, move on. That's the game. You don't need to be a slave to the card and pencil to enjoy it.


Niall

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes where a mulligan should be allowed or even encouraged
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2021, 05:43:38 PM »
The English clubs are seemingly way less formal when it comes to score keeping (not competition) and have a generally lighter atmosphere about same. Score keeping and handicap posting has always seemed somewhat overarching in the U.S. and way more formal than across the water even in a knock around game. What I find intriguing is that the U.K. takes the opposite approach with the pageantry and grandeur of the British Golf Lunch where the U.S. flips the script and goes from the more formal golf to the mostly very casual lunch. I hope to get a crack at the Tuesday or Thursday lunch at Muirfield somewhere down the line. :)