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Niall C

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 10:09:12 AM »

If Hyde Park was designed by Ross on a limited budget and paled in comparison to his best work, is it fair game for Tim Liddy to thoughtfully add more Ross-inspired features now that the club has plenty of well-heeled members to fund the work?



Jason


I fundamentally agree that a course can be improved irrespective of who designed it. However a couple of points;


- if the course was designed by one of the greats and has been relatively untouched since it was built, then I think you have a very high bar to get over to say you have improved the course


- if in making an improvement on an individual hole that does improve the hole but is out of keeping with either the rest of the course or not in line with the style of the rest of the course, are you actually making an improvement ?


- who decides what is an improvement ? It seems to me that each successive architect will tell you how the previous guy got it wrong and didn't understand what the original designer was about. That happened in the golden age and is happening now.


Niall

Steve Lang

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 10:18:44 AM »
 8)  Not sure about all Colt courses being so sacred... Allestree Park Golf Course apparently wasn't sustainable in Derby... perhaps it needed someone to improve things and it might still be alive! 

I've too seen Mona and was able to gaze for a while, she was certainly coy, a little intriguing with her place and history... but I can also appreciate Andy's work... his version is more likely to be on my wall than Leo's   
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark_Fine

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2021, 10:19:24 AM »
I have worked a few Tillinghast designs.  One of them was Suneagles in NJ.  Those who know the course might recognize the bunkering (at least the ones we touched up/restored) looks a lot like what Tillie did at Somerset Hills.  Not surprising why if you do the research.  However, there are two holes on the course that confused us when I was first doing some digging to even prove it was an original Tillinghast design to begin with.  The bunkering on those two holes was very shallow and totally different from the rest.  We didn't understand why until finally uncovering some evidence that the club had some early on financial difficulties and had trouble completing the golf course.  It is believed that Tillinghast had to move on to other projects and the club finished those last two holes on their own with the help of a local road builder  :o   Would you leave those two holes as is? 


Awe - the questions one has to address in restoration work.  Not as black and white as some like to think it is  :D

John Mayhugh

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2021, 10:30:22 AM »
8)  Not sure about all Colt courses being so sacred... Allestree Park Golf Course apparently wasn't sustainable in Derby... perhaps it needed someone to improve things and it might still be alive! 


What a cute quip.

I would be fascinated if you shared more of your knowledge on the course closing. Seems like you know a lot about the issues affecting it.

Steve Lang

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2021, 10:37:07 AM »
 8)  John, Learned about it on Golf Mates and posted on it... had 0 replies... go Google it and you can read all about it.


Cheers
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2021, 10:42:15 AM »
   If all we did was look at golf courses, preserving the original would be imperative. But
we play golf on them.  Failure to make changes is preposterous.  Those who want to return to the greatness of original design should be driving Model T’s.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2021, 11:37:49 AM »
Warhol’s body of work is so much richer than as characterized above. Send me a personal message if you want a reading list which covers the basics.


I'm probably the guilty party here. Send me the reading list, please. As much as I like to stir the pot, I'm certainly game to become a little less unwashed. I mean, the dude designed one of my favorite album covers at the very least.


Art often gets restored to its original state but not altered. The same should be true for great golf courses. If someone thinks that he or she can build a better course than Colt, convince a developer or club to provide a new canvas.


Ira


Ira, that sounds okay in theory. But who decides whether a course is great or not? And what if that same architect can convince a developer/club to provide a new canvas, in the form of painting over what's already there? In a business where new construction is rare, shouldn't a salesman with a compelling vision be free to pursue it?


If Hyde Park was designed by Ross on a limited budget and paled in comparison to his best work, is it fair game for Tim Liddy to thoughtfully add more Ross-inspired features now that the club has plenty of well-heeled members to fund the work?


If Tiger Woods Design shows up at Blaketree and sees the possibility of Bluejack, should they ignore it and instead commit to honoring the original design that they've been hired to change?


I guess what I question most is the part where your post implies that the architect should judiciously choose not to pursue work of a certain type. I'd shift the onus. I think it's up to the club to know what they have, and nurture it. That means knowing when to restore, when to consider a bigger alteration, and when to leave well enough alone.


Jason,


I agree that the primary onus is on the club, but the architect should inform the club of the potential consequences of its decision. And if the club wants a faithful restoration, the architect should refrain from making changes in the guise of updating the course for the modern game.


Ira

Thomas Dai

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2021, 11:46:32 AM »
Isn’t there supposed to be an Alister MacKenzie response to the question “What do you think of the improvements to the course?” of “You mean the changes!”?
Atb

Mike Hendren

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2021, 11:57:33 AM »
Maybe this could be a separate thread but what courses if any that are at least 80 years old are better today than they were when they first opened?  This is of course a subjective question but then most are in GCA.


In my opinion, Augusta National Golf Club.


Bogey


I am genuinely intrigued that Bogey thinks this. Is it possible for additional information? Thanks


Sweens, how about match play - original v. Current course? Should I start a thread?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2021, 12:54:05 PM »
   If all we did was look at golf courses, preserving the original would be imperative. But
we play golf on them.  Failure to make changes is preposterous.  Those who want to return to the greatness of original design should be driving Model T’s.


Jim,


I'm all for evolving and think there is absolutely a place for new ideas/courses, etc. But to use your analogy, would you put a Ferrari engine in a Model T? If the T was in pristine condition, why not leave it as a legacy to what was before? And if it wasn't pristine, why not return it to its original state?




Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2021, 12:56:20 PM »

If Hyde Park was designed by Ross on a limited budget and paled in comparison to his best work, is it fair game for Tim Liddy to thoughtfully add more Ross-inspired features now that the club has plenty of well-heeled members to fund the work?



Jason


I fundamentally agree that a course can be improved irrespective of who designed it. However a couple of points;


- if the course was designed by one of the greats and has been relatively untouched since it was built, then I think you have a very high bar to get over to say you have improved the course


- if in making an improvement on an individual hole that does improve the hole but is out of keeping with either the rest of the course or not in line with the style of the rest of the course, are you actually making an improvement ?


- who decides what is an improvement ? It seems to me that each successive architect will tell you how the previous guy got it wrong and didn't understand what the original designer was about. That happened in the golden age and is happening now.


Niall


Niall,


All worthwhile considerations, and I'd agree with the above. Often I've been harsh on changes to great courses like John points out. I appreciate that work may be required for various reasons - I only wish clubs/architects would answer your above questions honestly, and if they still think the work is prudent, then fair enough. To your second point - would you put the new par 3 at Hoylake in that category?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2021, 02:35:14 PM »
   If all we did was look at golf courses, preserving the original would be imperative. But
we play golf on them.  Failure to make changes is preposterous.  Those who want to return to the greatness of original design should be driving Model T’s.


Jim,


I'm all for evolving and think there is absolutely a place for new ideas/courses, etc. But to use your analogy, would you put a Ferrari engine in a Model T? If the T was in pristine condition, why not leave it as a legacy to what was before? And if it wasn't pristine, why not return it to its original state?


If it's my daily driver I would prefer the Ferrari engine. If it's just part of a collection then restore the car to its original state.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2021, 06:14:48 PM »
8)  John, Learned about it on Golf Mates and posted on it... had 0 replies... go Google it and you can read all about it.


If you learned about the reason for the closure, then why suggest that the quality of the course was to blame?

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2021, 10:43:39 PM »
John:  Exactly.

Tim Gallant

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2021, 03:28:03 AM »
   If all we did was look at golf courses, preserving the original would be imperative. But
we play golf on them.  Failure to make changes is preposterous.  Those who want to return to the greatness of original design should be driving Model T’s.


Jim,


I'm all for evolving and think there is absolutely a place for new ideas/courses, etc. But to use your analogy, would you put a Ferrari engine in a Model T? If the T was in pristine condition, why not leave it as a legacy to what was before? And if it wasn't pristine, why not return it to its original state?


If it's my daily driver I would prefer the Ferrari engine. If it's just part of a collection then restore the car to its original state.


I love the mental image of you speeding down the highway in a Model T at 200mph :) Might be worth the change...


In all seriousness, it just wouldn't work. Nothing else about the car is built to handle that speed (brakes, steering, tires, etc), so what started as an engine refit, now means a total overhaul and you're no longer left with a Model T. If you want to go faster / be more comfortable, get a new car?


To bring it back to golf, look at the Eden course at St Andrews. There's a model t with a few Daewoo holes put on the far end of the property. Nothing wrong with the Daewoo holes, but they don't fit in with anything else on the rest of the golf course. If you like those holes, there's plenty of other golf courses that have 18 of them.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2021, 07:19:17 AM »

Sweens, how about match play - original v. Current course? Should I start a thread?


Don't go crazy, but yes. Maybe pick one par 4, one 3, and one 5.


I am sad and interested in that this is 3rd time my "First Masters" got bumped...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2021, 08:00:07 AM »
Tim


Without wishing to avoid your question on M&E's work at Hoylake I have to say I've never been so can't really comment. What I would say in a general sense is that a lot of these elderly links have been rerouted and made-over so many times that a coherent style is not always easy to discern. Add in the nature of the landscape and topography on some of them and it can sometimes be difficult for an architect to impose their style even if that is what they wanted to do. As I say, I've never been to Hoylake so can't say whether that is the case there.


In the podcast Frank refers to work done on a Colt course in Northern Ireland and if memory serves me right suggests or at least infers that the consulting architects failed to take into account Colt's ideas on golf course design. Frank can chip in if I've got that wrong. He didn't say but I suspect that he was referring to M&E's work at Portrush. For the sake of this discussion let's assume that was the course and the changes he was referring to. The general consensus seems to be that the work has improved the course and made it a better/stronger finish. If that was achieved by not strictly following Colt's design criteria, or Franks interpretation of Colt's design criteria, does that invalidate the work in some way or should we just accept that the changes are for the better ?


And, to come back to my final point, who decides or should decide on that anyway ? I should point out that I've never been to Portrush either.


Niall   

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2021, 11:10:03 AM »

Sweens, how about match play - original v. Current course? Should I start a thread?


Don't go crazy, but yes. Maybe pick one par 4, one 3, and one 5.


The thread linked to below includes Dan Wexler's takes on a Then v. Now debate -


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.0.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2021, 08:03:50 PM »
Warhol wasn't really an artist
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2021, 05:50:22 PM »
Warhol wasn't really an artist


Real art ships.
 - Steve Jobs
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2021, 11:42:08 AM »

Part of this debate centers on the idea that in the visual arts it is hard to separate the artist from the work.  The Mona Lisa represents not only the beguiling image of a woman, but the years of study that Da Vinci had put into the human anatomy, his mastery of imitating nature and an attention to detail found only through practice and patience.  No one else could have produced that painting.


I don't think Warhol ever would have said he could have improved on Da Vinci's work.  He knew whatever he did would be a Warhol, a completely different work in a different style with a different message.  Perhaps he would have thought he could have created a portrait of the same woman that would have a different impact than the one that hangs in the Louvre, but that work would not be the Mona Lisa.  And if Warhol did say he could improve it, it would be solely because that statement itself has the same kind of impact he sought in his actual work.  The mere utterance of the thought would have been performance art to Warhol.


And the same concepts generally apply to Golden Age courses, the only difference being the non static nature of both the golf courses and how the game is played.  We talk about Ross' Seminole and MacKenzie's Cypress.  The hand of the creator is part and parcel of the ethos of these courses, yet we'll often quietly accept a few changes made in the name of improvement from time to time (would anyone complain if somehow Cypress added an 18th tee out on the rocks). 


If paintings were "used" in some way other than being viewed, perhaps there would be an apt analogy between the worlds of fine art and golf.  But they aren't.  Yes, painters and architects may continue to tinker with their work over the years until they believe it is done, but you wouldn't alter a painting for any other reason.


Perhaps the better comparison would be between the world's of golf and architecture.  Even the Louvre itself has seen its fair share of renovations.


Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2021, 12:37:42 PM »

Perhaps the better comparison would be between the world's of golf and architecture.  Even the Louvre itself has seen its fair share of renovations.



Instead of The Louvre, let's use Notre Dame as an example.


It recently burned down so they must spend a fortune restoring it.  Should they go with modern, flame-retardant materials?  Should they make the spiral staircases to the roof wider, for overweight tourists?  Should they stick with an old fashioned organ or go with electronic music on the world's greatest LED screen?


I doubt it will be reproduced exactly the same, but I suspect few architects would risk suggesting they can do a much better design in its place.  After all, for a cathedral there is always the possibility that it's not just the worshippers who might pass judgment.  ;)




Sven Nilsen

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2021, 01:08:23 PM »
Tom:


Now you're getting to the definition of "improved." 


A painting's utility doesn't really change over the years.  It is displayed and viewed. 


The utility of golf courses and buildings might, however.  Increased traffic, players hitting the ball further, ADA compliance, etc.


In your example, Notre Dame is the golf course that has been altered beyond recognition.  Take a relatively untouched Golden Age Florida course decimated by a hurricane, or a Ross turned into Dark Age monstrosity by a water-hazard focused green's committee.  What should the restoration plan look like here?  Has the utility of the course changed that even a sympathetic restoration should include some updates (whether new or previously done)?


The Louvre is the course that has been slowly worked over throughout its life, like an Augusta National.  Pei's glass pyramid probably caused as much angst amongst a portion of the AIA as ANGC's Tiger-proofing did to some of the folks around here.  Are these improvements?  What is the utility these changes are meant to address?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2021, 01:20:31 PM »
Sven:


I don't know how to address The Louvre since it wasn't purpose-built as a museum; it spent several hundred years as a fortress or a palace first.  And honestly, I'm not sure how many people think it is truly a great BUILDING, or museum building. 


I.M. Pei's glass pyramid was controversial because it was so untraditional, in a place founded on tradition . . . it fits in like a sod wall bunker in one of the fairways at Augusta.  That would help preserve the challenge of the course, but at a cost.


Augusta is a different animal because they host a professional tournament every year, but I have noticed that over the past forty years of changes since I first saw it in 1981, the one thing they haven't done much at all, is to move any of the members' tees.  So, if you are building a golf course primarily for the members instead of for the pros, the powers that be at Augusta seem to think you can leave the course alone.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Could Andy Warhol have improved on Mona Lisa?
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2021, 03:04:37 PM »
Clearly there are a lot of golf courses that could benefit from change and improvement.  But there are also golf courses that are exceptional and widely regarded as the best.  I wonder (and I don’t know the answer) if we did a study, which class of courses has been tinkered with and changed the most over the years?  It might surprise us.  Sometimes the best ones attract the most attention and maybe not always in a good way.