News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2021, 01:06:13 PM »
And???


What did they expect to pay for 3 days free reign at Seminole?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2021, 01:14:45 PM »
I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't think the USGA has ever not represented the 1%--they just usually do it with a little more subtlety.


It's also possible Seminole put a hard cap on attendance and this was the least bad way to enforce it.


Lynn S, if you're still watching, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago which led to serious discussion of 60's/70's/80's college basketball players. If you can find it, your opinions would be much welcomed. Guessing you know something about the topic.
Speaking of amateur sports and college basketball - what is the face value of tickets for the "amateur" Final Four competition in normal times?

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2021, 01:33:49 PM »
I think the issue here is that the USGA has long since moved to an "all the traffic will bear" model for most things.  Some years ago White Bear YC wanted to host a USGA event. We have been a senior Open qualifying site and have hosted many MInnesota GA and MN PGA events among others. Our course is short, so we thought the Girl's Amateur might be a fit. In addition to closing the course for a week the USGA wanted us to pay $100,000 plus for the privilege.

We passed.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2021, 01:53:06 PM »
I'm a fan of the USGA, and hate this move for many reasons. Just a few:


- Prices out kids and beginners who would maybe find Walker Cup players more relatable than Tour pros while watching in person


- Heightens the expectation among ticket purchasers of receiving "value" for their money. Which can and often does lead to decisions on scheduling, weather delays, grandstands etc that aren't in the best interest of quality amateur golf.


- Will erode support from future potential host clubs.


- Next step towards blurring the am and pro lines. Thanks to upcoming changes in the USGA amateur guidelines, there is already a scramble taking place behind the scenes of agents trying to sign top amateurs. How long until one of the agents wants a cut of the Walker revenue for his client? Or states that his player only wears Nike shoes, not the team footboys? At that point it's just a mini Ryder Cup, which sucks.


- And overall, there's just no upside to this decision. Even if you believe in full capitalism all the time. Even if you think it's fine because the NCAA does the same thing. Even if you don't think GCA fans deserve to walk places like Cypress and Seminole for free. Even the most ardent fan of Gordon Gecko must surely realize the USGA is giving up a ton of goodwill in exchange for maybe $200K in net profit every 4 years? Is there a single USGA event, initiative, publication or facility that is dependent on this (by my calc) 0.00168% increase in annual revenue?


Michael


 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2021, 02:13:21 PM »
$75/day in 2017 with no parking / food or drink help.


Call it $20 per day to park and $50 per day for food and drink at LACC or Seminole.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2021, 02:18:30 PM »
Does anyone have a guess as to how many people did watch the Walker Cup at Merion, Chicago or LACC?


Are we talking hundreds of people or thousands?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2021, 02:34:08 PM »
How would you structure it...as a non-profit?


 Jim,


  Some of yours are reasonable questions, but perhaps giving more people, incremental or exponential, the chance to watch the competition at a more reasonable price would've been a realistically defensible.


  Auction (or secondary market pricing) is irrelevant unless the issuer wants to go completely out on the greed spectrum. Face value is, at least theoretically speaking, supposed to represent reasonable value. Why else do concert and sporting tickets (even Masters passes) come out at a lower fixed price. The subsequent auction inflation is a product of the equation between market access and demand, and can be enforceably protected (again, Masters passes) if so desired.


 As for the USGA making donations to organizations in need, I believe it is a # (or at least was a few years back) vastly lower than it's own administrative and organizational costs. Let's not forget that it was only about a decade ago that the now Lords of Magnolia Lane (then the Lords of Far Hills) were leasing private jets on the donors dime to ferry them to various events.




Steve, I'd suggest Covid, and mitigating risks around it are the primary driver for the overall change in viewing opportunities. The decisions they made as a result of that are obviously debatable but unique circumstances dictated the reaction I'd guess. Free admission for children under 16 accompanied by a paying adult being a noteworthy loss...but understandable this year IMO.


I wasn't really thinking of secondary market auctions. I was thinking they would be lauded if they had released the tickets on an auction basis with proceeds going to a specific good cause. My point was simply that they get to a similar place in that a great deal of this $500 per spectator will in fact make it to deserving causes.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2021, 03:59:42 PM »
Does anyone have a guess as to how many people did watch the Walker Cup at Merion, Chicago or LACC?


Are we talking hundreds of people or thousands?


I was at LACC and it was in the thousands.  For the entire event, tens of thousands.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2021, 04:51:26 PM »
I attended the Walker Cup at LACC and tickets were very reasonable. I don't remember the actual cost, but it wasn't enough to cause me pause on the purchase.


What I don't like about the $500 one-price-all-inclusive deal is that it turns the event into (mostly) a corporate entertainment outing... which is what has happened to bigtime sporting events and top rated public golf courses. Let's face it, the average Joe can't take his son or daughter to watch the Walker Cup for $500 a head. So, as Michael Wolf says, it's no longer a truly amateur event, but a hybrid professional presentation. I think this arrangement probably says more about what Seminole wants than the USGA. I'm sure they were not too excited about the possibility of having some of the great unwashed prowling their grounds.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2021, 05:34:32 PM »
Well this is certainly on point.

Go to the Mission statement page for the USGA at this link, and play the video!   ;D ;D

https://www.usga.org/about.html#:~:text=The%20USGA%20promotes%20and%20conserves,who%20love%20and%20play%20it.





PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2021, 05:44:42 PM »
$160/day to hang out at Seminole watching the Walker Cup doesn't seem that bad, really. Might as well get people to commit to 3 days.


What does a one-day ticket cost to go to the Masters in the open market? $2,500? Walking inside the ropes watching such a cool event is a bargain!
H.P.S.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2021, 07:00:24 PM »
On the list of Egregious Examples of Golf's Tendency Toward Ridiculous Expensiveness, this doesn't even crack the top 10,000. The 8 people in the world who care have already posted in this thread.


Agree that it sucks. But I'd rather bitch about the fact that I'll probably never play Seminole than bitch about the fact that I won't attend the Walker Cup.

The USGA can't control how Seminole operates and nor should it. However, the USGA can control where its events will played.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2021, 07:26:59 PM »
I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't think the USGA has ever not represented the 1%--they just usually do it with a little more subtlety.


It's also possible Seminole put a hard cap on attendance and this was the least bad way to enforce it.


Lynn S, if you're still watching, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago which led to serious discussion of 60's/70's/80's college basketball players. If you can find it, your opinions would be much welcomed. Guessing you know something about the topic.
Speaking of amateur sports and college basketball - what is the face value of tickets for the "amateur" Final Four competition in normal times?


I payed 450$ for nose bleeders for the 2013 NCAA men’s bball National Championship when Louisville won.  500$ is ridiculous, but it’s about on par with other “amateur” events.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Scott McWethy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2021, 08:39:14 PM »

100% agree with your statement Steve.  It's excess greed like this that makes me happy to sit at home with my HD TV and watch it from my couch.  Heck, I paid almost $30 at the 1999 Ryder Cup for a hot dog, drink, and a bag of chips.

But, Steve, I thought you LIKED capitalism.  Just two days ago you were telling me I wad an idiot for questioning it.


Welcome to the club!


Tom,


  I do like capitalism, and you clearly didn't understand that your misstatement on it was both theorethically and factually baseless.


  I DON'T like excess or greed. Like various excesses found in most anything, from golf courses to economics, they give either black eyes or pause to the subjects validity. If you read my posts on the effect of golf discounters, my argument was consistently in favor of seeing lower prices and greater choices lead to more consumer empowerment. That is an advocacy for the practice of fair market capitalism without excess or greed. Quite the reverse actually.


  It is my personal opinion that limiting spectating of such a worthy event and venue should be made far more accessible for the average Joe. For sure, the USGA can (and obviously will) charge whatever they want (or what the market will bear), but it's an direct refutation to what their mission statement is. I think the golfing world ought to take note of their hypocrisy and poor leadership.


PS.. "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member!"  Groucho Marx

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2021, 08:47:19 PM »
In addition to closing the course for a week the USGA wanted us to pay $100,000 plus for the privilege.


Was the USGA providing the club $100,000 or more in return to make some sort of course improvement?  That's the sort of structure I've observed with other courses.  Who knows, maybe the USGA has some clubs pay so that other courses who have no capital can host other years.

The 2020 Girls' Junior Championship, that was canceled due to COVID-19, was supposed to be played at my current home course (USAFA).  I feel confident saying there was no $100k payment from the Air Forces 10th Force Support Squadron that manages the course.

Put me in the camp that has no problem with the pricing for this year.  For those that are calling this greed how do you decide the non greedy amount to charge?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2021, 09:41:37 PM »
I think $500 is reasonable as compared to other events "amateur" or professional. Hopefully the Supreme Court will rule in favor of the athletes in the NCAA case. The USGA is acting no different than the NCAA in this case.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 10:16:49 PM by Bill Gayne »

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2021, 04:32:14 AM »
I have travelled across the pond for the last three US-hosted Walker Cups, at Merion, NGLA and LACC. All three were some of the most fun golf-related weekends I have ever spent, with a troop of good friends both British and American to walk round with and enjoy convivial dinners after play. I paid for the 'posh' package at both the National and LA, which cost rather less than $500 and was I thought money perfectly well spent. Obviously there will be almost zero Brits attending Seminole, save (I suspect) for the players and R&A staff, and what was already a tricky contest (in terms of seasonal timing) for the GB&I side will become even harder. Not sure what the odds currently are on a home win, but they must be pretty strongly odds-on.


Here in the UK payment of a 'facility fee' for hosting R&A or (in the old days) LGU or home union amateur events was always standard practice, in essence to compensate host clubs for lost green fee income (which tells you a lot about the financial structures of many of the British championship venues). Incidentally the $500 weekend spectating fee at Seminole will pay for at least half of the annual membership subscription at Conwy, where the Curtis Cup will follow in August, where I very much hope to be and where I very much hope to see some GCA friends.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2021, 07:50:27 AM »
 8)


Worked the Walker Cup at Pine Valley in 1985 and it was quite a week. Certainly golf was the priority then and it wasn't about the money. Given the crowds were limited at the clubs request it might be similar in scope to this year as far as attendance. Think they limited it to 2000 guests a day , probably not a whole lot more than the Crump Cup party every September

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2021, 10:24:17 AM »
Does anyone have a guess as to how many people did watch the Walker Cup at Merion, Chicago or LACC?


Are we talking hundreds of people or thousands?


I was at LACC and it was in the thousands.  For the entire event, tens of thousands.


I was there the entire 3 days and there's no way there were "tens of thousands" in attendance. Maybe 10,000 total. But didn't feel crowded at all.

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2021, 10:31:54 AM »
ISO: 1 Saturday Walker Cup ticket


Have: Cash Money or 2 Friday Walker Cup tickets to trade


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2021, 11:38:07 AM »
For $500 do I get to hang out in the men's locker room and run up a tab?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2021, 11:45:29 AM »
Isn't admission to the Crump Cup free? 




Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2021, 01:31:13 PM »
So that's $167/day.


If I paid $25 in the 70's for a courtside seat in Pauley Pavilion to watch Lynn hoop it up that would approximate $140 today assuming 3% inflation annually.  And Lynn et all would likely sit out the second half with a 20+ points lead.  Just saying.


I wonder what glass seats for a regular season NHL game run. 


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2021, 02:06:14 PM »
Isn't admission to the Crump Cup free?


Ehh


$20 or $40 for parking / shuttle to the course. 100% donated to the fire local department.




Of all the bitching on here about this, I’d really love to hear someone put a value on the offering that’s substantially different than $500.


Some people would like to go, and pay for, one day instead of three. Ok...fair enough. I suspect those options will become available. See a few posts above.


Lost complimentary access for kids is a negative but has to be attributed in full to COVID precautions, no?

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup: $500 3-day Passes ONLY...Really?
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2021, 02:58:00 PM »
Lost complimentary access for kids is a negative but has to be attributed in full to COVID precautions, no?


Unfortunately not many folks took up the "free kids" offer last time around. My two kids were the only ones I saw on property on Friday and there were just a handful on Saturday and Sunday. Upside is that almost every player (and Mr. Crenshaw!) stopped to say hi to them and pass along a ball/ autograph/ or pin!