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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2021, 10:52:41 AM »
Tom Doak asks and states:

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.


To your question, the better ask is why should the public municipal less-than-expert golfer be limited to buying Titleists or Taylor-Made balls at full-retail green grass shops when they prefer to buy discounted Pinnacles, Top-Flites or Kirklands  that produce less angst when disappearing into the nearby pond or adjacent woods?


 Ask the golfer living in Suffolk or Westchester Counties if they can either walk into Sebonack or Metropolis and buy whatever golf products they want.....especially if their tee time is at Montauk Downs or Maple Moor? What about the guy who wants to buy lower-cost, or even used, clubs for a beginning junior or spouse? Mike Young is entitled to advocate for green grass retailers over discount stores, but that point was effectively moot almost a decade ago.


The bulk of your statement about the purpose of big box stores is similarly presumptuous and uninformed. You won't find the likes of Home Depot, Target, Wal-Mart, Ikea, Costco or Babies R'Us (and dozens of others) seeking to "raise prices with no competition." Ask the executives of these companies if they expect to raise their prices anytime soon? Most, if not all, would tell you they only wish they could, but won't be able to so long as they wish to remain competitively attractive to their customer base.


Surely, the purchasing and specific locational efficiencies afforded big box stores make for advantageous economics. Certainly each and every retailer in every terrestrial market or product space desires domination at whatever level they can maintain, yet believing that they are on the path to a "free market end stage.... monopoly" is both false and silly.


Amazon or Wal-Mart might well be seeking monopolies on various markets, but they only approach that kind of exclusivity when they maintain the lowest cost--highest convenience offering to the consumer. Until then, they face reasonable and consistent competition from terrestrial big boxes as well as a wide variety of other specialty product sellers.


A great example of the fallacy of your argument would be the historic demise of department stores. In the areas of clothing, shoes, cosmetics and furniture they traditionally dominated, most tried the route of creating local monopolies and eventually raising prices. Where are they now? Practically extinct would be a fair assessment.


Your post nicely sums up my feelings, although I admit I am no economics expert.  I agree the trend towards larger stores vs. mom and pops has existed in every field, including the corner store now being a 7-11.  While I sympathize with the small, local, non brand name businesses (since, essentially I am one) I see the reasons why business is going the way it has.  And, as someone pointed out, this thread would have been more relevant 20 years ago, as it's no longer big box vs small, it's internet vs retail stores, everywhere.  (Once again, Mike is bitching about a situation that has long past gone away, like one sentence in an ASGCA document that suggests hiring ASGCA members, but was only in there 20 years ago, but that's him and just his way! ;) [size=78%])  [/size]
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I also don't get why (from his posts here and on FB) a free market Republican like him so often argues against free trade?


I also don't get the "getting ready to play" comments from TD.  Who says golfers need to wait until the last minute to buy what they need? Day of golf takes long enough as it is, I can see wanting to get out of the car and head to the first tee with as little hassle as possible.  He and I can agree that at some point, the govt. can and should protect free trade.  The argument has always been just how much is necessary, and do you wait until someone is close to monopolizing a market, and/or how far in advance can you pre-emptively intervene.


And, basically, I tend to believe most things happen as they inevitably should, not that everything and everyone is just all messed up and in need of me to straighten them out. :D
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2021, 11:35:53 AM »
All the critiques of Mike's post strike me as true/accurate/reasonable. And yet....
There is something I don't like and feel is not right about the 'discount world' we live in -- people going to on-line tee time booking sites to save $5 dollars on an already very low green fee at their local mom & pop, but then turning right around and spending $60 on a dozen 'top brand' golf balls they can't benefit from and $600 to play a 'top ranked' course just one time.
I don't know. Of course, everyone is free to spend their money however they please, and our right to do so. But sometimes I feel there is something 'unseemly' about our near-slavish preoccupation to play & buy & talk about only 'the best'.



John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 11:58:11 AM »
Do any discount golf stores give away tees?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 12:06:37 PM »
... but then turning right around and spending $60 on a dozen 'top brand' golf balls they can't benefit from ...

I would point out that Titleist research has shown that the worst golfers benefit the most from the expensive golf balls.

The farther you miss your target by, the more you need the benefit from the most expensive golf balls.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 12:11:46 PM »
Golf balls are not $60 per dozen at discount stores. I apologize to those who purchase their balls uno a Mano.


https://www.pgatoursuperstore.com/titleist-pro-v1x-2019/1107613001.html?country=US&currency=USD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI16Hp5PHV7wIV1NzICh1CsgqQEAQYASABEgITkfD_BwE

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 12:23:13 PM »
G -
yes, but the much vaunted approach-shot-and-green-side 'spin' of the ProV1 reminds me of the story Tommy Armour tells in his instructional book, about the average student who kept asking to learn how to hit the pro shot that hits the green and spins/sucks back to the hole. Finally getting tired of the question, Armour asks him: 'Do most of your approach shots land long or short of the pin?' And when the guy answers 'Well, they're almost always short', Tommy says 'Then why the hell do you want the ball spinning back for?!'

(JK - that would by $60 in Canadian dollars)


« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 12:25:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 12:27:33 PM »
Of course the new trend in golf equipment sales is the "direct to consumer" model, which bypasses both the green grass shops and the big-box retailers. Snell, Vice, RZN & Cut are selling golf balls and PXG, Sub 70 & New Level are selling golf clubs that way.

You missed Ben Hogan. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 12:32:36 PM »
PP
After missing the green short, long, left, or right, the next shot is likely to go long, thereby rendering Tommy's argument useless.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2021, 12:34:47 PM »
All the critiques of Mike's post strike me as true/accurate/reasonable. And yet....
There is something I don't like and feel is not right about the 'discount world' we live in -- people going to on-line tee time booking sites to save $5 dollars on an already very low green fee at their local mom & pop, but then turning right around and spending $60 on a dozen 'top brand' golf balls they can't benefit from and $600 to play a 'top ranked' course just one time.
I don't know. Of course, everyone is free to spend their money however they please, and our right to do so. But sometimes I feel there is something 'unseemly' about our near-slavish preoccupation to play & buy & talk about only 'the best'.


Peter,


 It's too late. Consumer behavior has long become accustomed to finding discount channels where available and then mentally justifying an additional, almost extra, expense for an experiential purchase. There are thousands of studies compiled at leading global business schools affirming this kind of economic activity. Retailers, real estate and consumer non-durable product companies all recognize this.


 The attraction to wanting "the best" is an absolute result of psychological marketing. Consumers are people and are naturally aspirational. Golf is a game that has quite a number of aspirational features and behaviors, thus it is completely natural for golfers to do whatever they can to want to "play the best," whoever they can...whether it be conditioning, architecture, natural setting, position on a list, association with the pro game, etc....


Jeff,


  TD's argument for "getting ready to play" has zero basis in fact. Obviously, his  talents for golf architecture clearly outweigh his economic theory skills. Like you said, no golfer needs to wait until the last minute to buy what they want, let alone from a source that may treat them like a captive customer (permitting a higher charge for similar goods).


  While I can agree with you about the occasional need for the government to intervene and protect free trade from monopolistic abuses, it's usually best practiced ONLY when and where absolutely necessary to protect a consumer's right to NOT be denied the right to a free market in the trade for or exchange of goods. I can't think of a single situation where government intervention into the marketplace, in-advance, justifies preemptive intervention.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2021, 12:42:18 PM »
I think the Big box stores aka large golf discounters have also proved another shopping trend, one-stop shopping as opposed to buying your clubs from one place, balls elsewhere, clothes and shoes somewhere else, etc.

Even if prices are mandated for brand-name new sets everywhere you go, your local club won't have near the same selection for everything else you may be looking for and most certainly won't be cheaper.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2021, 12:56:33 PM »
I got two copies of Geoff Shac’s CPC book in the Edwin Watts on I-Drive in Orlando, which was nice.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2021, 12:58:27 PM »
One of my favorite petty thieves would go to the discount stores to try out his favorite brands and then buy his clubs on eBay. 

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2021, 01:21:28 PM »
One of my favorite petty thieves would go to the discount stores to try out his favorite brands and then buy his clubs on eBay.


 And often end up with nice fakes no doubt.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2021, 01:26:27 PM »
One of my favorite petty thieves would go to the discount stores to try out his favorite brands and then buy his clubs on eBay.

 And often end up with nice fakes no doubt.

Several years back, guy I worked with bragged about getting a sweet set of Callaways for 1/2 price on his trip to China.  Didn't really like the guy, so i just looked at him and chuckled...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2021, 02:19:01 PM »

 The attraction to wanting "the best" is an absolute result of psychological marketing. Consumers are people and are naturally aspirational. Golf is a game that has quite a number of aspirational features and behaviors, thus it is completely natural for golfers to do whatever they can to want to "play the best," whoever they can...whether it be conditioning, architecture, natural setting, position on a list, association with the pro game, etc....


Jeff,


  TD's argument for "getting ready to play" has zero basis in fact. Obviously, his  talents for golf architecture clearly outweigh his economic theory skills. Like you said, no golfer needs to wait until the last minute to buy what they want, let alone from a source that may treat them like a captive customer (permitting a higher charge for similar goods).


  While I can agree with you about the occasional need for the government to intervene and protect free trade from monopolistic abuses, it's usually best practiced ONLY when and where absolutely necessary to protect a consumer's right to NOT be denied the right to a free market in the trade for or exchange of goods. I can't think of a single situation where government intervention into the marketplace, in-advance, justifies preemptive intervention.


Steve, I agree with you, I guess I was just trying to soften the blow a bit for those ultra liberals who might be offended, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2021, 02:51:13 PM »
All the critiques of Mike's post strike me as true/accurate/reasonable. And yet....
There is something I don't like and feel is not right about the 'discount world' we live in -- people going to on-line tee time booking sites to save $5 dollars on an already very low green fee at their local mom & pop, but then turning right around and spending $60 on a dozen 'top brand' golf balls they can't benefit from and $600 to play a 'top ranked' course just one time.
I don't know. Of course, everyone is free to spend their money however they please, and our right to do so. But sometimes I feel there is something 'unseemly' about our near-slavish preoccupation to play & buy & talk about only 'the best'.

Pietro

My PoV is different. When you can buy something cheaper than normal...well that's the real price. Everything else is increments of a rip off or some added value for service.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 03:51:59 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2021, 03:48:25 PM »
Most golf courses do not keep iron sets in stock and order them to fit the player which is a good thing.  Dick's or Golf Galaxy have sets of irons in stock for the player who wants or needs them immediately.  I agree that prices for clubs of the big brands like Titleist, Ping, Callaway, etc.,  are the same wherever you buy them.  Used clubs have become a big business and give the player a less expensive alternative with very little difference from one year to the next.  The pros at my club went to California and became certified fitters with Taylormade as well as Callaway and both of those manufacturers explained that the stock shafts offered by most manufacturers are fine for more than 95% of players.  Club Champion is an interesting seller - a fellow who I play with regularly and is about a 6 handicap with a driver club head speed of about 90 MPH went there for a new set of irons and he was charged $150 for the fitting and they convinced him to upgrade from the stock shafts to the tune of an additional $60 per iron. 

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2021, 04:23:01 PM »
I buy all my clubs at our Navy Golf Courses here in SD. They are 90% off what I would pay at the Golf Mart and no tax! Seems like the right thing to do.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2021, 05:12:15 PM »
Golf courses aren't going out of business because they are not selling enough over-priced golf clubs or balls. If you want to pay full boat price for clubs and have your ass kissed by the proprietor good for you. Some golfers can't afford that and still love the game. ;)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 05:59:09 PM »
I buy all my clubs at our Navy Golf Courses here in SD. They are 90% off what I would pay at the Golf Mart and no tax! Seems like the right thing to do.


90% off
or
90% of?


90% off sounds really attractive, and I'm just up in Orange County.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2021, 06:15:39 PM »
I buy all my clubs at our Navy Golf Courses here in SD. They are 90% off what I would pay at the Golf Mart and no tax! Seems like the right thing to do.


90% off
or
90% of?


90% off sounds really attractive, and I'm just up in Orange County.

Maybe we can get some charter flights booked for everyone to go get them in SD.
Let see 90% off $1000 is $100. $900 left to fly and party. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2021, 06:36:02 PM »
Asking if "discount golf stores contributed to the game" is like asking if public driving ranges and munis have contributed to the game. Same revenue-driving customer visits all three.

No revenue, no game.

Buy your clubs and ammo at the discount golf store, go to the public range for a bucket of balls and then peg it at the "Village Links" with your pals. OK, maybe buy a logoed Cutter & Buck polo at the pro shop, but I aint paying $15.00 for ProVs there...!!...;-)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 06:37:34 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2021, 06:47:01 PM »
I buy all my clubs at our Navy Golf Courses here in SD. They are 90% off what I would pay at the Golf Mart and no tax! Seems like the right thing to do.


Pete,


Where is the love!!


Mike Young,


You are my buddy. I am a small company guy. In terms of golf that means I play Snell Golf Balls at The Fields Golf Club. Today, I visited the PGA Superstore in Jersey, and it was fun!! I am weak!!





I walked in and needed a $9.99 part to fix my Ping Hybrid. They did not charge me ANY labor.

90 minutes later, I walked out with $274 worth of stuff.  :D Oh yea, I have to pick up my club on Thursday. Say a prayer for me, 28 years of marriage is on the second tee!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2021, 06:58:16 PM »
I bought a gap wedge from Golf Galaxy last year -- for no extra cost the guy helped me figure out my current gap between PW and SW and then gave me 4 wedges to hit on a trackman to help determine the right make/loft. I don't see how a green grass guy can do that and I can't imagine buying another piece of golf equipment without knowing what the trackman #'s are and how it fits in my bag. My club will have fitting days but that's about it for equipment -- they stick to high margin stuff like B Draddy shirts, Imperial hats and embroidered belts.




Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2021, 09:17:49 PM »
 8)  They do offer the best place to try on shoes...




Do the folks out in Eugene consider Fiddler's Green a discount golf store?  Always stop in there when in the neighborhood
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"