Have the discount golf stores contributed anything to the game?

[Mike_Young]

IMHO no...they have actually taken dollars from the actual courses that provide the playing surfaces.  Thoughts.

[Paul Rudovsky]

IMO they are not there to "contribute" to the game.  They are there to earn $$ for their owners and provide salaries to their employees...and they can only do this if they provide value and service for the prices they charge.


and interestingly, i do think that over the past say 5-6 decades, they have provided competition and thereby lowered prices for think s golfers need...thereby lowering the cost of a very expensive game and helping to open it up to many who could not afford it decades ago

[Bernie Bell]

Seems to me that the dollars belong to the golfer not to the course or club.  So they're not "taking" anything from anyone that's not freely given, and they lower the cost (except for Titleist products) to golfers who don't want to pay an intermediary for services they don't want.  They are not preventing a golfer who wants to support the club/course from doing so.  If the discounters are good for golfers, I'd say they're good for golf. 

[Mike_Young]

OK...I can see you points but disagree...most pro shops will match their pricing and most vendors will help those proshops do so.  There was never a need for high volume golf stores.  Growing up we all bought top line clubs and balls from green grass only.  In a state like Georgia with close to 400 courses and mostly public, the $120 million in sales a year that the PGA Superstores do pulls a lot of revenue from the very playing fields that provide the surface for the game. 

And Bernie Bell.." and they lower the cost (except for Titleist products) to golfers who don't want to pay an intermediary for services they don't want. "  they don't lower the cost...and that intermediary providing those services is also providing the playing grounds..do most restaurants or clubs allow you to bring your own alcohol?  If they did , do you think their food prices would be higher?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Things are different than they were a couple decades ago. Many of the pros used to own the golf shop and it was their own business. I always made it a point to buy my supplies from the golf shop. That all changed and now most clubs own the shops and the pros run it. I do not feel the same motive to purchase things in the shop, although I do. As far as I am concerned they are both businesses and people support the one they want.

[David_Tepper]

Mike -

I am glad to see you have found yet another aspect of the golf business to complain about.

The reality is the proliferation of brands offering golf equipment and apparel over the past 20 years has been enormous. So has the  variety and various models of golf clubs from the many manufacturers. The typical "green grass" golf shop has neither the physical size nor the financial wherewithawl to stock a representative selection of what is available in the marketplace. If someone wants to demo drivers from 3 or 4 manufacturers in two or three lofts with two or three shafts and test them all on a launch monitor, how many green grass golf shops will be able to accommodate them vs. a big-box golf shop?

How do you feel about independent local golf shops that engage in club repair or loft & lie adjustment. Were Ernest Jones and Leslie King taking business away from deserving country club/golf course pros by giving golf lessons downtown in city centers 60-80 or more years ago?

DT   

[Mike_Young]

Mike -

I am glad to see you have found yet another aspect of the golf business to complain about.

The reality is the proliferation of brands offering golf equipment and apparel over the past 20 years has been enormous. So has the  variety and various models of golf clubs from the many manufacturers. The typical "green grass" golf shop has neither the physical size nor the financial wherewithawl to stock a representative selection of what is available in the marketplace. If someone wants to demo drivers from 3 or 4 manufacturers in two or three lofts with two or three shafts and test them all on a launch monitor, how many green grass golf shops will be able to accommodate them vs. a big-box golf shop?

How do you feel about independent local golf shops that engage in club repair or loft & lie adjustment. Were Ernest Jones and Leslie King taking business away from deserving country club/golf course pros by giving golf lessons downtown in city centers 60-80 or more years ago?

DT   

Not really complaining..just stirring.  I put them in same boat as Golf Now...see no reason for them...

First, by taking the business they have taken from the local golf professional, they have changed the entire profession.  Hard to be a PGA pro now.  If some guys are giving lessons and repairing clubs downtown,,no problem here..  Everything you mention above could be handled by local golf pro shop if he knew he didn't have the mega shops.  All has to do with golf companies going public...

[Dave Doxey]

If there was “no reason for them”, then they wouldn’t exist.  Consumers use them, thus they stay in business.  Same for GolfNow, courses sign up for the service and consumers use it.  The free market keeps them going. What is your proposed fix?

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,

Isn't the flip side of what you are saying that those stores make equipment, and therefore the game itself, much more accessible to the public, and by doing so might help the bottom line of golf courses?  Put another way, while the stores might have changed the bottom line for the green grass pro shop, might they be helping the bottom line of the courses themselves?

For me, the change to adjustable clubs with launch monitors has just changed everything about buying equipment.  I can't imagine why, in 2021, I would put a club in my bag that I hadn't tested beforehand and been fitted for, and there is just no way that a green grass shop can do that now unless it's one of the rare places that has a fitting center with access to all the major OEM's.  And that's not just about the big stores; it's a complete paradigm shift in how equipment is purchased.

Economies of scale are a commonplace fact of life.  The guys who started the PGA Superstores came out of Home Depot, but they're not the ones that killed green grass equipment sales; Edwin Watts and Pro Golf Discount had already done that.  In fact, online sales have basically killed the brick and mortar versions of Edwin Watts and Pro Golf.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes.
I live in the city of Chicago.
There WAS a Golfsmith on the north side of the city that was basically within a 2-3 mile radius of 1-2m people.


Nearest PRIVATE club pro shop where the “gen pop” is distinctly NOT welcome: 7 miles.


Private clubs also carry different brands than the big box guys.
Most public access golf club pro shops are weak merchandisers with limited selections and hardly any clubs.


Big box guys serve a purpose.that is very obvious.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,


I just had my Ping Hybrid head come out. I jammed it back in, but it is not fitting properly and it will come out again.


I went to my close to work Muni/Range/18 holes at Spook Rock GC. They are super nice, just did my grips, and many putter grips...


The Ping Hybrid needs a small head for the shaft and he sent me to the PGA Super Store nearby as they "stock everything".


Big inventory no personality VERSUS small inventory great personality club repairs. It's a mix and match world out there!! 

[Tom_Doak]

Yes.
I live in the city of Chicago.
There WAS a Golfsmith on the north side of the city that was basically within a 2-3 mile radius of 1-2m people.


Nearest PRIVATE club pro shop where the “gen pop” is distinctly NOT welcome: 7 miles.


Private clubs also carry different brands than the big box guys.
Most public access golf club pro shops are weak merchandisers with limited selections and hardly any clubs.


Big box guys serve a purpose.that is very obvious.

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?


The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

[JeffTodd]

I worked in the Austin HQ for Golfsmith for ~5 years and have since moved on to a bigger box, sporting goods retailer. David Tepper really hits close to the mark with his comment; the size of the golf assortment is prohibitive to stock unless you not only have money to burn (Arthur Blank, imo), have significant brick & mortar presence and a strong web channel as well. Even then it is very difficult to turn over inventory profitably; "good" inventory turns in the golf industry would get you fired in other retail sectors.  Another challenge is that vendors expect ~full representation of their assortment, which often leads to disproportionate and unprofitable investments in inventory; i.e. for years the market was loaded with Nike clubs that no retailers wanted but had to buy in order to be able to stock Nike apparel and footwear, which everyone wanted. Obviously not an issue with Nike anymore, but the tail (suppliers) wags that dog (retailers) in the golf industry more than any other retail sector I have worked in. There is very little dysfunction in the golf merchandise business that can't be blamed very squarely on the manufacturers.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes.
I live in the city of Chicago.
There WAS a Golfsmith on the north side of the city that was basically within a 2-3 mile radius of 1-2m people.


Nearest PRIVATE club pro shop where the “gen pop” is distinctly NOT welcome: 7 miles.


Private clubs also carry different brands than the big box guys.
Most public access golf club pro shops are weak merchandisers with limited selections and hardly any clubs.


Big box guys serve a purpose.that is very obvious.

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?


The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

Big box retail has been disintermediating the small guy for decades. Be it the CVS, Home Depot, WalMart or Best Buy in Traverse City or the Golf Smith in Chicago. That's a separate discussion and argument.


Every time I passed through this GolfSmith there were people in hitting bays trying out new clubs, people on their putting green testing new putters, repairs being done (where I took my stuff off-season, too), kids ogling the latest "Rickie Fowler" mannequin look and, yes, in the 100 sq ft where golf balls are sold, people buying balls so that they ARE READY to play.


If you do not belong to a private club, where would you go to look at the latest Titleist or Callaway clubs, Tom?


Yes, that Golf Smith is now gone and I think it died about 2 years ago.
It has NOT been replaced by small business anywhere that I know of.


I know of ONE indy store in Chicago on Irving Park Rd run by a very nice family who is still prominently featuring a set of Tommy Armour 845s for sale..."on special"....   And a "Buy 1 get 1 free special" on Top Flights.

And who doesn't love spending 10 minutes in an airport PGA Superstore while waiting for a flight...?...;-)


Some of my best friends run clothing companies in the golf biz. They restrict distribution of their products to private clubs only and the niche specialty retailers. Perhaps Mike's frustratons can be pointed there...


I think others do the same, but that's not my business so i dont know for sure. But, these manfacturers would also NOT allow a "mom and pop" brick n mortar retailer to sell their products either, nor would they allow GolfSmith and others.

[Kalen Braley]

Yes.
I live in the city of Chicago.
There WAS a Golfsmith on the north side of the city that was basically within a 2-3 mile radius of 1-2m people.

Nearest PRIVATE club pro shop where the “gen pop” is distinctly NOT welcome: 7 miles.

Private clubs also carry different brands than the big box guys.
Most public access golf club pro shops are weak merchandisers with limited selections and hardly any clubs.

Big box guys serve a purpose.that is very obvious.

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

Tom,

I'd be inclined to agree here, but Walmart and similar have been killing the competition for decades, yet their prices remain very low.   Add in the online shops like Amazon, etc, which also features low prices for most of its items and I'm not seeing any monopoly effects at play, even if there are plenty of other side effects like small business owners having a tough time and wage stagnation.

[Dave Doxey]

Yes.
I live in the city of Chicago.
There WAS a Golfsmith on the north side of the city that was basically within a 2-3 mile radius of 1-2m people.


Nearest PRIVATE club pro shop where the “gen pop” is distinctly NOT welcome: 7 miles.


Private clubs also carry different brands than the big box guys.
Most public access golf club pro shops are weak merchandisers with limited selections and hardly any clubs.


Big box guys serve a purpose.that is very obvious.

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?


The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

I'm not aware of any examples where a monopoly exists in retail and results in higher prices.  Consolidation of retail has consistently driven prices to consumers down.  If it ever resulted in higher prices, there would be an incentive for competition.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What is a  " discount golf store?" 


It's my understanding that the major manufacturers control equipment, balls  and  other prices. A set of new PING, Mizuno, Callaway, Taylor Made, etc irons costs the same in PGA SuperStore, Dick's, Golf Galaxy, WorldWide Golf (Edwin Watts, Van's, Roger Dunn, Golf Mart. etc)  If sold at a lower price than mandated, the major manufacturers can legally pull the account from the retailer.  Walmart doesn't sell these brands.


Here in Phoenix, to my knowledge, there are only 2 independent golf retailers- West Valley Golf and Arizona Golf Works. They don't discount the major manufacturers .


Of course, used clubs are a different story.

[Ira Fishman]

In one of the cruel ironies of modern antitrust law, manufacturers can prevent discounting even if it keeps prices higher yet the courts focus almost exclusively on price when evaluating competitive practices thereby leaving Mike Young’s small businesses unprotected. There is a recent backlash against the “Chicago School” of antitrust/competition theory, but it remains to be seen if Congress or the courts will change anything.


Ira

[Steve Lapper]

Tom Doak asks and states:

Can I ask why you need to buy golf balls downtown when you are not getting ready to play golf?

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.


To your question, the better ask is why should the public municipal less-than-expert golfer be limited to buying Titleists or Taylor-Made balls at full-retail green grass shops when they prefer to buy discounted Pinnacles, Top-Flites or Kirklands  that produce less angst when disappearing into the nearby pond or adjacent woods?


 Ask the golfer living in Suffolk or Westchester Counties if they can either walk into Sebonack or Metropolis and buy whatever golf products they want.....especially if their tee time is at Montauk Downs or Maple Moor? What about the guy who wants to buy lower-cost, or even used, clubs for a beginning junior or spouse? Mike Young is entitled to advocate for green grass retailers over discount stores, but that point was effectively moot almost a decade ago.


The bulk of your statement about the purpose of big box stores is similarly presumptuous and uninformed. You won't find the likes of Home Depot, Target, Wal-Mart, Ikea, Costco or Babies R'Us (and dozens of others) seeking to "raise prices with no competition." Ask the executives of these companies if they expect to raise their prices anytime soon? Most, if not all, would tell you they only wish they could, but won't be able to so long as they wish to remain competitively attractive to their customer base.


Surely, the purchasing and specific locational efficiencies afforded big box stores make for advantageous economics. Certainly each and every retailer in every terrestrial market or product space desires domination at whatever level they can maintain, yet believing that they are on the path to a "free market end stage.... monopoly" is both false and silly.


Amazon or Wal-Mart might well be seeking monopolies on various markets, but they only approach that kind of exclusivity when they maintain the lowest cost--highest convenience offering to the consumer. Until then, they face reasonable and consistent competition from terrestrial big boxes as well as a wide variety of other specialty product sellers.


A great example of the fallacy of your argument would be the historic demise of department stores. In the areas of clothing, shoes, cosmetics and furniture they traditionally dominated, most tried the route of creating local monopolies and eventually raising prices. Where are they now? Practically extinct would be a fair assessment.

[Kalen Braley]

What is a  " discount golf store?" 

Of course, used clubs are a different story.

Steve

Used clubs was my assumption when Mike started this thread.  Yes a brand new set is full price at the one-off golf stores, but 2-3 year trade in clubs, which are still perfectly fine for the vast majority of golfers, can be had for a significant discount.

[Mike_Young]

Semi-private and muni courses can also have good golf shops and fittings.
Buy wherever you wish...I was trying to make a point that dollars spent with big box golf are dollars that are taken away from the local golf club.  AND it was the manufacturers that started it all as was mentioned earlier. 

The game of golf has been abused golf business.

[Garland Bayley]

IMHO no...they have actually taken dollars from the actual courses that provide the playing surfaces.  Thoughts.

Have discount stores contributed anything to the game of golf?
YES, GOLFERS!

For that matter, thrift stores have contributed golfers to the game of golf. I once got paired at an A. Vernon Macan course with a young man that didn't have any two clubs in his bag that matched. He bought clearance clubs from thrift stores.

My kind of guy.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This would be a better thread 20 years ago.  Now, prices are pretty uniform across the golf equipment distribution channel.  Yeah, there is a discount shop based in Oregon that has been the go-to for internet purchases since the early days of the internet (Discount D..."s) but the rest of golf inventory now is priced about the same.  Ping doesn't allow discounting at retail, and never has even on the internet, and is protected by legal precedent.  Club shops can sell most brands at Mill River pricing, but generally prices are the same for like equipment everywhere.  The (golf retail) world is flat, to borrow from that Tom Friedman title.


Big retail shops contribute to the game by having good used club selections that make it easier for newer players to buy gear.  Same for "playability guarantees"...it helps make it easier to cut a check for irons or a driver.

[Sean_A]

The lack of huge golf shops in England is probably the biggest reason I haven't bought a new club since I can remember. I still get balls from the US. I love Titleist practice and logo over runs,but they seem to be more scarce these days.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

Of course the new trend in golf equipment sales is the "direct to consumer" model, which bypasses both the green grass shops and the big-box retailers. Snell, Vice, RZN & Cut are selling golf balls and PXG, Sub 70 & New Level are selling golf clubs that way.