[Phil Burr]

How do courses earn the label of "great" without having many great holes?  Augusta comes to mind.  Are there any great holes apart from 10, 12 & 13?  Pine Valley has at least 15 holes that we characterize as great; Pebble has at least 9; Cypress undoubtedly more, etc.  Augusta seems to have a high percentage of holes with little architectural merit (at least seen on television) yet it retains an exalted aura.  Is it just the legacy of Bobby Jones and The Masters?  It's never made my bucket list, even if I were to go 20 deep.  Given time I could probably place at least 100 courses above it.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with your premise, but there are great holes and GREAT HOLES, and trying to count them is an exercise in bias favoring the courses you prefer.


Some people would include almost no holes at Pinehurst No. 2, while others would include almost all of them!


Pebble Beach, by contrast, has more GREAT holes than most places -- coastlines tend to help! -- but the other half would rarely get a look at being great or even very good.

[Steve Lapper]

I would put Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal into this bucket.


Both have only a few great holes. Pacific Dunes a small number, and Ballyneal possibly only one.

[Eric LeFante]

How do courses earn the label of "great" without having many great holes?  Augusta comes to mind.  Are there any great holes apart from 10, 12 & 13?  Pine Valley has at least 15 holes that we characterize as great; Pebble has at least 9; Cypress undoubtedly more, etc.  Augusta seems to have a high percentage of holes with little architectural merit (at least seen on television) yet it retains an exalted aura.  Is it just the legacy of Bobby Jones and The Masters?  It's never made my bucket list, even if I were to go 20 deep.  Given time I could probably place at least 100 courses above it.

I disagree with your assessment of Augusta.



I think 3 is in the top handful of greatest short par 4s in the world. Unlike 10 at Riviera, players actually do lay up on 3 at Augusta, which proves how good the architecture is since players actually have to make a decision on the tee.


2 and 8 are extremely good par 5s. 1, 5, 6, 14, 17 have the most interesting greens on the course and are world class.


When you think about the best Masters ever, 15 and 16 played a huge part in those events so I would deem those holes great as well.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't know why, but a course like Southern Hills comes to mind.  Well regarded course, but I don't think many of the holes are absolute standouts.  And, there are probably a thousand courses just like it, old line clubs.  In Ft. Worth, maybe even Colonial, Shady Oaks, etc.  All great places to play, not sure either has more than a few well known and great holes.

[V. Kmetz]

I disagree with your assessment of Augusta.

I think 3 is in the top handful of greatest short par 4s in the world. Unlike 10 at Riviera, players actually do lay up on 3 at Augusta, which proves how good the architecture is since players actually have to make a decision on the tee.

2 and 8 are extremely good par 5s. 1, 5, 6, 14, 17 have the most interesting greens on the course and are world class.

When you think about the best Masters ever, 15 and 16 played a huge part in those events so I would deem those holes great as well.

I agree with this sentiment, and it shows the problem TD unfolded...the measure of quality of the holes versus a subjective standard of great or plain is going to get rolled into the held-opinion of the course... I think ANGC gets more negative reaction from the "acts of reno-storation" and how it affects MacKenzie's original bones, than reaction to what's there...to my mind, Eric has mentioned the salient points and only #7, #11 and #18 strike me as holes of plain or capitulated architecture to serve the Masters.

[jeffwarne]

Re Augusta
Great holes
2,3,5 7(great green and it's now a drive and pitch hole again  [size=78%])[/size]
[/size][size=78%]8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]and 4 and 6 aren't shabby, nor are 1 and 17.[/size]
[/size][size=78%]!8 is so-so[/size]

[Sean_A]

It's somewhat limiting, but I tend to think of really stand out holes in terms of the area. For instance, I might say 17 TOC is an All Scotland hole. It tends to keep what really stands out in perspective. If you get a course with three All Scotland holes that is incredible. People use great far too freely.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I think 3 is in the top handful of greatest short par 4s in the world.

Eric [and Jeff W]:


If we are looking for a hole to illustrate the subjectivity of "greatness", this would be a good choice.  Back in the day there were no golf writers who ever mentioned this as a great or even a good hole. 


Eric, have you ever played Augusta?  I have played it three times [probably fewer than Jeff], but I cannot conceive of #3 as a great hole even by my lower definition, much less the standard I would use for GREAT.  In contrast with Pinehurst #2, where almost any hole would be one of the best on your home course, if the 3rd at Augusta National was on your home course I don't think it would receive much attention at all.

[Will Lozier]

How do courses earn the label of "great" without having many great holes?  Augusta comes to mind.  Are there any great holes apart from 10, 12 & 13? 

In my mind, great holes start with great greens, and ANGC has no shortage. I will conservatively nominate the 3rd (I disagree with TD), 5th, and 14th as "great holes" with completely original world-class greens. Interestingly, the 13th is the only green from your selection that has a great green. Not saying 10 and 12 aren't great holes, but I don't think they are the best holes on the property.


Still, you pose a really interesting question.


Cheers

[Will Lozier]

I would put Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal into this bucket.

Both have only a few great holes. Pacific Dunes a small number, and Ballyneal possibly only one.

Can't speak to Ballyneal, but having caddied on and played Pac Dunes a substantial number of times, I vehemently disagree!


PD - #2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16 are all world class holes. While it is my second favorite course on property, it has the greatest collection of holes of just about any course I have played with the exception of Cypress Point and Royal County Down.


Cheers

[Kalen Braley]

Based on what I've seen on TV, pics, google earth, etc...I think 3 at ANGC is a bit like 18 at Pebble.

With the top players hitting it a mile now, no doubt it brings a lot more options into play for them, with spots to get in trouble like BDC last fall, or perhaps make a 2. But for everyone else? The members and guests for the rest of the year?  I'm guessing if you polled them it wouldn't even make their top 10 favorite/interesting holes, much less consider it great.

[Peter Pallotta]

For some reason, reading this thread the concept of 'TIME' came to mind.

In this case, not the Time the architect takes to find & build a hole/course, but the Time we take to play it.

If we were able to free ourselves from the relentless pressures-constraints of Time (both from the outer world, and the inner) and to play a golf course as if we truly had 'all the time in the world', I wonder if it would impact our notions of a GREAT hole.

As it is, we usually only have (or give ourselves) a limited amount of Time to 'take in' what a golf hole presents to us. In that context, the great ones may be, at least in part, the most INSISTENT ones.

It's interesting: from years of reading here, my impression is that C&C build great & highly praised and very popular golf COURSES, and yet -- relatively speaking -- posters here don't highlight their great HOLES nearly as often as they do those by other top architects, past and present.

I wonder if that's because, with C&C taking so much Time to quietly FIND those golf holes, they're of a kind-quality that require golfers to take a lot of Time to APPRECIATE them.

[Tim Leahy]

How do courses earn the label of "great" without having many great holes?  Augusta comes to mind.  Are there any great holes apart from 10, 12 & 13?  Pine Valley has at least 15 holes that we characterize as great; Pebble has at least 9; Cypress undoubtedly more, etc.  Augusta seems to have a high percentage of holes with little architectural merit (at least seen on television) yet it retains an exalted aura.  Is it just the legacy of Bobby Jones and The Masters?  It's never made my bucket list, even if I were to go 20 deep.  Given time I could probably place at least 100 courses above it.

If you have never been to Augusta National to see it in person, you need to go to see how many great holes are there. TV does not do it justice.

[jeffwarne]

I think 3 is in the top handful of greatest short par 4s in the world.

Eric [and Jeff W]:


If we are looking for a hole to illustrate the subjectivity of "greatness", this would be a good choice.  Back in the day there were no golf writers who ever mentioned this as a great or even a good hole. 


Eric, have you ever played Augusta?  I have played it three times [probably fewer than Jeff], but I cannot conceive of #3 as a great hole even by my lower definition, much less the standard I would use for GREAT.  In contrast with Pinehurst #2, where almost any hole would be one of the best on your home course, if the 3rd at Augusta National was on your home course I don't think it would receive much attention at all.

Fair point Tom, and BTW, you've got me by two plays as I've only played ANGC once officially. I have played Amen corner and many holes on the back nine a lot, sneaking over on summer evenings and starting on 13.


# 3has been made better IMHO by technology and I'm using the event as the standard(forgetting they actually have a membership-lol)
The hole was quite good before Jack redid the left bunkers when there was fairway on the left. After the Jack attack and the second cut was added, it was a really boring layup hole, until John Daly and then the ProV1 brought back more interest(albeit different).
As Sean said though,it has a really good greensite and green, and the fact that ANGC has so many shouldn't make a hole less great.

[Eric LeFante]

I think 3 is in the top handful of greatest short par 4s in the world.

Eric [and Jeff W]:


If we are looking for a hole to illustrate the subjectivity of "greatness", this would be a good choice.  Back in the day there were no golf writers who ever mentioned this as a great or even a good hole. 


Eric, have you ever played Augusta?  I have played it three times [probably fewer than Jeff], but I cannot conceive of #3 as a great hole even by my lower definition, much less the standard I would use for GREAT.  In contrast with Pinehurst #2, where almost any hole would be one of the best on your home course, if the 3rd at Augusta National was on your home course I don't think it would receive much attention at all.

I have not played Augusta. This is the hole description on Masters.com:


Alister MacKenzie, the architect of Augusta National with Bobby Jones, believed the third hole to be nearly perfect in design. Thus, this hole has been changed less than any other on the course.


I agree the hole is more interesting for the pros since they can get close to the green but there are not many reachable (250 yard) Par 4s on top courses from the member tees so you can make that argument about a lot of short par 4s.


There are three legitimate options off the tee; lay up, hit driver at the green or favor the right side so you are close to level with the green, or hit driver and go left like Ray Floyd liked to do so his second shot would stop faster since the green sloped toward him from that angle. There are no gimme pars and you can make bogey as easily as birdie, with a Masters stroke average of 4.08.


Since we are talking about short par 4s and PD has been mentioned I think 6 is one of the best short 4s I’ve ever played.


My home course is Somerset Hills. I think 3 at Augusta is better than the three short par 4s there. I love the 5th green at SHCC but the tee shot is not as interesting as 3 at Augusta. Same goes for 18. Even though 17 is 375 yards anyone who can hit it 230 can get it within 40 yards of the green. I think the strategic interest of both tee shots is a tie. [size=78%]The second shot on 17 at SHCC is not as dangerous as 3 at Augusta since the green is easier to hit though. [/size]

[Chris Mavros]

Probably a more less popular opinion but to me, Dormie Club fits this category.  There are a handful of holes I consider great that is enough for me to want to play there and well regard the course, but most of the holes were lacking for one reason or another. 


Another I can think of is Dismal White, to a lesser extent. 

[Jeff Schley]

# 3has been made better IMHO by technology and I'm using the event as the standard(forgetting they actually have a membership-lol)
The hole was quite good before Jack redid the left bunkers when there was fairway on the left. After the Jack attack and the second cut was added, it was a really boring layup hole, until John Daly and then the ProV1 brought back more interest(albeit different).
As Sean said though,it has a really good greensite and green, and the fact that ANGC has so many shouldn't make a hole less great.

For the vast majority of us who have never played ANGC, the above is a good observation as until the last 15-20 years we didn't see hole 3 on the TV coverage. So roughly before the proV1 ball there was not the TV/internet coverage of the front nine and 3 certainly falls into that. Those that have been to the tourney had unique looks at what many of us had rarely seen until the turn of the century.

[Ira Fishman]

I cannot comment on ANGC because I have not played it. St. George’s Hill is the course that I have played that fits the bill. Number 10 is the only truly great hole (actually world class), but there are a whole bunch of very good ones that flow with great cadence and variety.


Ira

[corey miller]

Isn't our view of great courses more a sum total of our views on most of the holes?  Or at least a great percentage of our views? 


my home course Sleepy Hollow prior to the renovation (the most recent which restored Macdonald greens) had a lot "Doak 7" holes, in fact pretty consistent at that level and it was probably a "Doak 7" course.


I now think it has a few holes that are well above "7" and so is the course.


My favorite modern is Ballyneal which my friend Lapper thinks has few/1 "great" holes.  What are the great "Doak 10" holes at Friars Head which is consistently highly ranked? Sand Hills?


Many courses are 9's that may not have any perfect 10's and perhaps it is a testament to the way some guys work trying to produce the best 18 holes?


That said, I am a big proponent of the   Ran M hole by hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't our view of great courses more a sum total of our views on most of the holes?  Or at least a great percentage of our views? 

It is for me.  Back in my college days, I would even go so far as to rate every hole on a 1-10 scale to try and compare courses -- before there were spreadsheets!


Eventually, I realized that ratings like those were too biased.  You'll give 7's across the board instead of 6's if you like the place more.


If you are going to rate holes individually, I would use no more than a 4-point scale:


0 - horrible hole
1 - okay hole
2 - good hole - would not detract from a great course
3 - would add to a great course
4 - one of the great holes in the world


At the end of the day, though, after you add up all the numbers, you're going to start fudging them around or adding other categories to produce the results your gut demands.  So I've not tried the exercise in a long time.

[Kyle Henderson]

The comments about Ballyneal lacking great holes baffles me. Really? Even if 2, 3, 10, and 18 are only “excellent,” 7,8,12,13,16, and 17 are as good as golf gets, from my perspective.


That aside, Kingston Heath ( and perhaps several of its sandbelt neighbors) is my poster child for a course that somehow amounts to something pretty great without any truly outstanding holes. There’s lots to love, but not one of the lot that I’d place i. The same stratosphere as the Ballyneal offering numbered above.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kyle,


I think Kingston Heath is a great example of the sum of the parts making for a brilliant course but one with few great holes. 15 is a world class par 3 and I think 11 is now a brilliant, flat hole - one of the best I've ever played.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kyle,


I think Kingston Heath is a great example of the sum of the parts making for a brilliant course but one with few great holes. 15 is a world class par 3 and I think 11 is now a brilliant, flat hole - one of the best I've ever played.
But 10 minutes away Royal Melbourne West has at least nine great holes. Of course, it's got the advantage of topography.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well, that's settled.


I love it when a thread runs its natural course and we reach consensus.


What's next on the agenda?

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