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Mike Worth

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What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« on: November 12, 2003, 11:42:25 AM »
Being a "newbie", I don't know all the nicknames for types of holes.  Could someone explain what the Bottle Hole is?  I recently played Kittansett and an archive search here indicates that Kittansett has a "Bottle Hole".  Which hole is it?

Thanks.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2003, 12:00:52 PM »
A Bottle Hole is one where Said Classic Architect finished off the greatest amount of the hard stuff in garnering the creativity to design the hole.   ::) ;D


One site that describes holes is George Bahto's Feature Interview here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewbahto.html

which just happens not to mention Bottle Holes....

Mike Worth

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2003, 12:04:41 PM »
Well, that helps quite a bit.  I think #12 is the bottle hole at Kittansett (some one correct me if I'm wrong).

Bottle hole must not be that hard, I scored par (4).   :-*

Francis Macomber

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2003, 12:06:06 PM »
Shivas,

The website is http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

but it does not list the bottle hole. Sorry that this doesn't help.

Happily,

Francis.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2003, 12:06:49 PM »
probably time to bring this back up again, so who remembers or has the link to that great site that explains the different types of holes and can post it for the new guys edification?

To the man formerly known as Dave,

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

However no Bottle Hole is listed. Bottle Hole at National is # 8.

George Pazin

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2003, 12:09:24 PM »
I'm sure Patrick will chime in when he sees this, he always has good things to say about the Bottle Hole at NGLA. And of course George Bahto is the expert.

I think the original is at Sunningdale Old. One of the defining characteristics is a set of crossing fairway bunkers staggered diagonally from left short to right long. I think on the original they were closer to the green and at NGLA they are more in the drive landing area.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Worth

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2003, 12:19:34 PM »
Well, not having played NGLA or Sunningdale, I can't relate.  I'm pretty sure #12 at Kittansett was/is a Bottle hole.  There was a large mound left center in the landing area, you could either try and carry it, or land the ball in a small clearing to the right - carry the ball too far right you're either in the woods or the 2nd shot is blocked by a tree.

I hit the small landing area on the right (I was trying to clear the mound), and hit a slightly cut 7-iron to the front of the green.  I played it from the tips, but there wasn't much wind the day I played.  

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2003, 12:21:15 PM »
I think the term Bottle refers to a narrowing of the fairway by the diagonal cross bunkers, but I'm probably wrong.

#8 Bottle at NGLA:





#12 at Kittansett:


Mike Worth

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2003, 12:38:34 PM »
Thanks for the photo, that was the hole.  Funny how I completely forgot about the bunker infront of the mound.  That mound was impressive though, it really caught my attention.  

BCrosby

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2003, 04:21:24 PM »
SS1 -

Others will know more about the Bottle Hole than I, but no. 8 at NGLA is one. We have debated at GCA in the past on the best way to play it. No one seems to know for sure. Fascinating hole.

A Bottle Hole typically has a long bunker set at a diagonal to the direction of play that, in effect, creates a second fairway. At the 8th at NGLA there are a couple of smaller pot bunkers (champaign bubbles?) on the same line as the larger bunker (they all go left to right). The line of bunkers impinge on shot choices to a point fairly close to the green.

The green is well bunkered, opening to an approach from the side of the fairway where the string of bunkers ends.

Any of that make sense?

There is a good drawing of no. 8 at NGLA by Gil Hanse in Shackelford's new book.

Bob

« Last Edit: November 12, 2003, 04:22:48 PM by BCrosby »

RJ_Daley

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2003, 04:42:22 PM »
If one would buy George Bahto's book "The Evangelist of Golf", one would never need to ask again what the descriptions are, and some exampled drawings of the MacDonald, Raynor, Banks theme holes.  Don't feel bad either.  I for one did not get the distinction of the Leven hole with Bottle for some time.  I now think I have the idea of the more precarious tee shot alternate fairway guarded by the diagonal narrowing bunkering as contrasted by the narrowing single landing area to the more open line to green and obscured by bunker and mound on a shorter easier accessible single fairway hole.  It seems that many renovations in the name of efficiency eliminated the "bottle holes" alternate fairway, causing them to set up more like Levens or Peconics.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2003, 06:00:03 PM »
I believe the "Bottle" hole references the necking of the fairway, or narrowing if you will.

I believe that the far set of three fairway bunkers at NGLA were an afterthought, and not original.

I don't believe the green end has any relevance other then perhaps copying the original and NGLA's, although I like the fortress aspect of the green.

George Bahto can probably provide the definitive word on the hole.

I think that the 8th at NGLA is one of the great holes in all of golf, but, I'm clearly biased.

Gene Greco

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2003, 06:49:26 PM »
Patrick:

 No bias noted. ???  

The 8th is imho the best hole on what may be the greatest course in zee world.






"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

ian

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2003, 07:08:18 PM »
12th at Sunningdale from the tee



and from the landing area looking at the green



Either Tom MacWood or Paul Turner has posted a plan of the hole out of a book which illustrates the hole's design. I hope they could add the plan to help with the explaination.

George_Bahto

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2003, 11:52:05 PM »
The bottle hole would better be referred to as a “bottle-neck” hole - a narrowing of the landing area where the longer the drive, the narrower the target becomes. Mac/ Raynor accomplished this on a lot of different ways.

Macdonald’s great 8th at National (perhaps my favorite hole there) is different today than was his original intention. The original tee-box was left of the Road hole green not on the right where it is today.

Today’s hole plays with two strips of bunkering at a diagonal to the direct line from the present tee to the
green.

From the original intended the box, the tee shot would play as I described in the first paragraph.

Macdonald saw this narrowing feature in the second shot on the bottle hole at Sunningdale old. Paul Turner has an excellent graphic of this which he posted a while back. (The narrowing can also be accomplished with a diagonal).

Macdonald took the second-shot strategy and incorporated it into the tee-ball on National-#8 (thank you Charlie, you old fart!!). This is one of Macdonald’s composite holes at NGLA. I haven’t figured out what the other part of the composite is ..... he stated the following listing some of the holes he would incorporate into National - his Ideal Course.

#1: (not to be put in that particular order) ...370-yards - Similar to the bottle hole at Sunningdale, placing deep graduated bunkers in place of ditch and bunker the green properly   ........  (Boy, did he ever)

They are going to clear the trees along the road (at NGLA) that are to the left of the present line of play. This does not necessarily mean they will reestablish the original tee - we’ll have to see what it will look like I guess.

Right now the length is 424 I think, but it was originally 368 as he indicated.  The original tee at National was a few stride to the LEFT of the 7th green. I think he saw the hole was going to be too short - especially the tee-shot, negating his original “narrowing” intent so he did two things.

1.- he lengthened the hole by moving the tee to the present position (I’ve got about 7 different versions of NGLA scorecards but not all are dated - I should be able to tell when he moved the tee.

2. - but before he did that I think he added that Principal’s Nose bunker beyond the line of bunkers
because people were blowing over his hazard - he wouldn’t have none of that.

Raynor build bottle holes as did Banks but they are hard to uncover because clubs often covered in these bunkers .....  Imagine, bunkers in the middle of the fairway!!!!

So in essence it is a way of bisecting or segmenting a fairway - not even to have two options of play .....
It can (and was) just the narrowing of the drive zone ... but what is very cool is that the longer you hit the ball the narrower was (is) you landing area.

As an aside to that thought: If you look at many of their routings you often find that the longer hitter was often put at a disadvantage because, once beyond the prime landing area, they left you with a downhill lie, in essence, de-lofting your approach club, whereas the ”normal” good drive was on the more level part of the fairway. Not a lot of fun playing a wedge from a definitive downhill lie .....  You can see this strategy used on the 14th at National - go too far and you have a nasty short pitch - this was not an accident.

I made a drawing of Raynor’s original plan for the Olympic Club (1918) and there is a bottle hole on that plan that has many more bunkers than the 8th at National.

The fairway bunkering on the 8th at National in the late day sun is something to behold.

SS1 - does that help?
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

ian

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2003, 07:35:34 AM »
George,

Thank-you for your excellend description which I would like to copy and keep if you don't mind.

Have I got the wrong hole? I could have sworn it was #12 at Sunningdale Old. Let me know, I have the rest of the course in photos too.

TEPaul

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2003, 08:43:36 AM »
George Bahto:

Who is E.J. Raisz who drew the fold-out drawing depiction of NGLA in the very back of the reprint of C.B.Macdonald's "Scotland's Gift Golf"? Next to his name is "Columbia Univerity. NY".

And if you know who he is do you know when he did that drawing and from what or where he worked off of to create that drawing?

The reason I ask is there's a lot on that drawing that seems to indicate the way things once were with various tees, green sizes, whatever. Raisz's drawing of the "Bottle" hole if studied carefully does seem to show a more effective "necking in" effect on a tee shot on that hole to the left section of fairway (left of the center bunker scheme) from either the present right tees or perhaps even the shorter left tee that we talked about when out there. In his drawing the left tee is much more behind the "Road hole" green than to the left of it where we were standing surmising its postion.

I've looked a good deal for the last few years at the bunker to the left of the fairway (about in-line on a perpindicular with the last carry bunker on the center bunker scheme) and wondered why it isn't brought more into the fairway and somewhat closer to that last carry bunker on the centerline scheme. That, in essence, would create far more of a "necking effect" in that ideal tee shot landing area on the left fairway option. And looking at that E.J. Raisz drawing, low and behold, that fairway bunker I'm speaking of IS MUCH CLOSER to that last center-line carry bunker than it seems to be now. In other words there's just way too much open fairway space to the left of the last carry bunker on the center scheme to create any real "bottle necking" effect there as it should.

It would seem to me that adjustment would truly make NGLA's 8th hole the real "bottle (necking)" effect it's supposed to be. Furthermore, look at how the fairway actually goes around that bunker I'm speaking of to the left on Raisz's drawing!! There's probably 5-6 steps of fairway to its left. My recollection is that at this time the fairway merely touches the right side of that left fairway bunker at best.

If that Raisz drawing is at all scaled, and it would seem to be because it does have a scale on it, they should look to both restoring the placement of that left fairway bunker and also get that fairway back around it's left side. All this would definitely create a far more effective " bottle necking" effect in that ideal tee shot area.

Not just that but again, what did Raisz work off of to do this drawing? It appears if he's as accurate as he seems to be what I'm saying here would be a Macdonald restoration anyway. It's all starting to make more sense on the "Bottle" hole as to why it does not now have much of a "bottle necking" effect but perhaps once did. The next question would logically be did someone move that left bunker to the left to open up that area at some point? It sure seems so to me!

Also look at the greenspace on both #13 and also #18!! I'd say what Salinetti and Burrows just did with the greenspace expansion onto the front of #18 about matches that Raisz drawing.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2003, 08:53:08 AM by TEPaul »

George_Bahto

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2003, 09:42:53 AM »
Tom: I don't think that drawing is to scale - I have a letter someplace, or have seen one, where CB was talking to the super and said the guy was not a golfer in any way but a "map maker."

Perhaps the opening was been enlarged by CB .... could it be that he did that (an enlarged opening) when he altered the line of play??
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2003, 09:44:34 AM »
Ian: Sunningdale 3 and Sunningdale 12: same hole - just a reversal of the nines.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2003, 10:09:49 AM »
"Tom: I don't think that drawing is to scale - I have a letter someplace, or have seen one, where CB was talking to the super and said the guy was not a golfer in any way but a "map maker."

George:

So obviously you're saying that Raisz did that drawing when C.B. was alive so that drawing has to date back to before 1939. That's interesting when looking at the various tees and so forth. Do you have any idea what Raisz used to do that drawing--an aerial, that enormous model in the maintenance shed or something else, like perhaps plans of Macdonald/Raynor?

As for it's accuracy and scale--from what I know about NGLA it looks to be in pretty darn accurate scale to me----all the other things about it I'm looking at, that is.


Willie_Dow

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2003, 10:15:15 AM »
Kittansett's #8 was a great Bottle Hole in the old days.

It was a reachable par five in two, but you had to thread the needle off the tee to avoid a gnarley cross rough which has been tamed over time.  

Mike Worth

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2003, 10:19:38 AM »
Willie.

Isn't #8 at Kittansett a par 3 or am I mistaken?  Or was the course routing different back then?  Or are you thinking of #7.  

Willie_Dow

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2003, 10:21:53 AM »
Excuse me:  that should read Kittansett's #7!

They have added mileage to the hole with a new back tee, but I think the return to the gnarley rough at the neck, and a return to the neck by mowing the fairway would make the hole more demanding.

Michael J. Moss

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2003, 11:37:44 AM »
George Bahto,

You are intimately aware of the following example of a Raynor "Bottle" hole where the members filled in those annoying fairway bunkers.

Ironically, it is Sunningdale in Scarsdale, NY (named after the internationally acclaimed London club) whose fifth hole was a 335 yard version. When you think of it, how could Raynor build a "new" Sunningdale without including a rendition of this Greatest Hole strategy? The membership clearly didn't understand the architectural bridge that Raynor built between Sunningdale Old and Sunningdale (new).

As it was originally designed, the left was the preferred side from which to play. The landing area being higher terrain afforded the player a better view of the green. As you noted in your fine summary of the NGLA Bottle strategy, our Sunningdale version had the following similarity: if the golfer drove past the optimum launch platform he faced a shorter shot from an awkward sidehill, downhill lie.

Raynor completed his work in 1918 and the Bottle was still evident on the 1926 aerial photo. I can't remember if the 1946 (?) aerial showed the bunkers there or not - if they did they didn't last long.

Today, with the distance players are able to drive the ball the bunkers, if restored, would be irrelevant. The fact is, the hole is land-locked so lengthening it is out. As it is today, Sunningdale doesn't have anything resembling the Bottle hole  :'( and in its place is a hole that needs to be re-thought.

George, get to work!

George_Bahto

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Re:What is the "Bottle Hole"?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2003, 11:41:43 AM »
Mike: Sunningdale Br Isles / Sunningdale Westchester NY

no bottle hole left in NY .... incredible!
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson