Gotta tell ya, I am tired of looking at water

[Tommy Williamsen]

As far as I am concerned the last few weeks have not been golf I have wanted to watch. Water after a while gets very old. I miss Riviera.

[Tom_Doak]

No one has mentioned it on the Streamsong thread, but one of the things I really like about Streamsong is that even though there is water in play, it doesn't feel like the ponds on other Florida courses at all, because most of the elevation changes coming out of the water are so abrupt.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom, I never felt that water constantly intruded on play. It was used sparingly for Florida courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I never felt that water constantly intruded on play. It was used sparingly for Florida courses.

To be fair, we didn't need to because the majority of the site was far above water table.  The problem in most of Florida is that if you dig down more than three or four feet, you hit water, so to create surface drainage they have to dig a lot of ponds and re-grade turf areas with the fill.

[Tim Martin]

Are either of you guys aware of other courses that were built on a former mining site? All three at SS get the benefit of some terrific land forms.

[Kalen Braley]

Are either of you guys aware of other courses that were built on a former mining site? All three at SS get the benefit of some terrific land forms.

Chambers Bay, and I think Jeff did a couple of em too!

[Tim Martin]

I know there a bunch of courses with quarry holes but was wondering more along the lines of what Mosaic does.

[Mike_Trenham]

They just showed on The Honda Classic coverage that it had the most balls in water hazards@ last year, to my surprise The Memorial was second and only a few dozen behind.


@ I know the proper term in 2020 but I am holding out that we will roll back the terminology.

[Thomas Dai]

I know where your coming from Tommy and go along with you. It’s part of the golf and visuals discussion again, especially TV and photo and now drone videos, and it’s not just water either.
Back in yee olde days, times gone bye, black and white was the only pictorial available. As a consequence there was little visual contrast on screen or in the press between blue water, yellow sand, trees and brush, short grass, long grass, hardpan etc etc.
This is now no more. We have colour TV, colour photos and now drones taking coloured footage and photos. And all sorts of clever computer tricks are available to enhance the quality and colour and make the footage and photos more appealing to the human eye.
The race for dramatic photogenic contrasts on courses has thus increased as has as a consequence the manicuring of golf courses as manicured courses with sharpe contracts between blue water, yellow sand, flowers, dark green tree leaves and several different lengths of heavily irrigated grass watered from big blue on-course ponds looks so much better on TV and in photos and drone videos.
Rant over, we’ll sort of over.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

I know there a bunch of courses with quarry holes but was wondering more along the lines of what Mosaic does.

Phosphate mining is only done in a few places around the world.  I'm not aware of any other golf course being built on one.


Note that not all phosphate mining sites look anything like the one Bill and I had to work on!  We both looked at another site that had just been mined, and that's one reason we decided to pool our resources to fit 36 holes into the first area.

[Tim Martin]

I know there a bunch of courses with quarry holes but was wondering more along the lines of what Mosaic does.

Phosphate mining is only done in a few places around the world.  I'm not aware of any other golf course being built on one.


Note that not all phosphate mining sites look anything like the one Bill and I had to work on!  We both looked at another site that had just been mined, and that's one reason we decided to pool our resources to fit 36 holes into the first area.

Tom-Was it the lack of dunes on the other sites? I know there are no shortage of abandon mines of different types but I’ve heard of few better repurposes of the land.

[JohnVDB]

They just showed on The Honda Classic coverage that it had the most balls in water hazards@ last year, to my surprise The Memorial was second and only a few dozen behind.


@ I know the proper term in 2020 but I am holding out that we will roll back the terminology.

Mark,


Don’t hold your breath.  As someone who was very involved with the rules changes I can say that allowing areas other than those containing water to be treated the same for us away from “water hazards”. I argued for just calling them all hazards, but since that term was in the previous rules and covere both water hazards and bunkers, it was decided to go a different way.


That being said, I’m tired of the announcers trying to show how much they know about the rules by calling them penalty areas all the time.  It is perfectly ok to say that a player hit his shot into a creek, pond, lake or the ocean.

[Terry Lavin]

FCOW (forced carry over water) is the bane and the pain of Florida golf. Ponds full of Titleist balls may increase the difficulty and, to some, the beauty of a golf course, but they break my back whenever I venture South. I’ll guess that I’d “get over it” if I played there more often, but I always bring a couple dozen Srixons when I’m down thataway.

[Matt_Cohn]

That being said, I’m tired of the announcers trying to show how much they know about the rules by calling them penalty areas all the time.  It is perfectly ok to say that a player hit his shot into a creek, pond, lake or the ocean.

I sometimes refer to the Pacific Penalty Area as a form of protest.

[Mike_Trenham]

They just showed on The Honda Classic coverage that it had the most balls in water hazards@ last year, to my surprise The Memorial was second and only a few dozen behind.


@ I know the proper term in 2020 but I am holding out that we will roll back the terminology.

Mark,


Don’t hold your breath.  As someone who was very involved with the rules changes I can say that allowing areas other than those containing water to be treated the same for us away from “water hazards”. I argued for just calling them all hazards, but since that term was in the previous rules and covere both water hazards and bunkers, it was decided to go a different way.


That being said, I’m tired of the announcers trying to show how much they know about the rules by calling them penalty areas all the time.  It is perfectly ok to say that a player hit his shot into a creek, pond, lake or the ocean.

Exactly, I am also not holding my breath that the USGA and R&A will fix their mistakes on ballls and implements either, for all I can tell the are dormie.

[Carl Johnson]

Tommy, I was thinking of this.  Last week and this week on the TV pro tour, WATER.  One dimension golf.  Must be cool for the TV audience, but I'd rather watch more challenging shots that offered alternatives.  Just me.

[MKrohn]

Are either of you guys aware of other courses that were built on a former mining site? All three at SS get the benefit of some terrific land forms.

Have played some golf in Malaysia but not here: https://www.minesgolf.com.my/


Built on an old tin mine.

[Brian Finn]

...

[jeffwarne]

As far as I am concerned the last few weeks have not been golf I have wanted to watch. Water after a while gets very old. I miss Riviera.

+1
Then someone shoots 20 under and that justifies it-not.
Somebody's always on, doesnt justify it,and the scores at the bottom of the field are often telling.
I had the exact thought as Tommy and was thinking of a thread addessing high stress golf with in your face hazards every hole,Bay Hill,Concession ,TPC and PGA national.
Such courses heighten anxiety -very little risk reward-just execute or else and the anxiety often produces shots youd never see on the range,or at an old school classic course not littered with hazards.
I guess those who think golf should be a pass/fail test of execution enjoy it.


I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it.

[Jeff Schley]

While constant carrying hazards and building up your frustration tolerance on the course could help a traveling handicap; it would hurt in many places as they don't play the ground game. How can you play a firm and fast course going from aerial golf of Florida?

TPC Sawgrass vs. Royal Cinque Ports match played at RCP, and the fat lady would be singing early in the back nine.

[Tom_Doak]

I know there a bunch of courses with quarry holes but was wondering more along the lines of what Mosaic does.

Phosphate mining is only done in a few places around the world.  I'm not aware of any other golf course being built on one.


Note that not all phosphate mining sites look anything like the one Bill and I had to work on!  We both looked at another site that had just been mined, and that's one reason we decided to pool our resources to fit 36 holes into the first area.

Tom-Was it the lack of dunes on the other sites? I know there are no shortage of abandon mines of different types but I’ve heard of few better repurposes of the land.

The great thing about the Streamsong site is that some of it had been left blowing around for years, so the wind shaped piles into dunes, and vegetation had stabilized a lot of it.  I don't know why that particular site had been left to naturalize for that long.  Usually, once they are done mining an area, they go back over it to make everything into either a lake or dry ground, and then seed it and be done with it.


Also, of course, it was all sand!  The phosphate is in a layer several feet underground, but at Streamsong the overburden they had to dig out of the way was sand, instead of rock or heavy soil as you'd find in most other mining settings.  I don't know if phosphate is always under sand -- probably not, since I hear there is some in Montana.


There are plenty of sand and gravel quarries that, once they mine most of it out, would be very cool sites for golf, but the mining companies tend to want to sell every last grain of sand they can muster.  Lost Dunes was a sand mine, though, and did have many similarities to Streamsong.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I realize that in many Florida sites any routing will require making lakes and ponds, just because it has to go somewhere. It doesn't, however, have to be in the landing areas so much. One of the things I like about Victoria National is that Fazio did not make every hole water bound in the landing zones. As much water as there is on the course he could have made it unplayable for the average guy.

[Jerry Kluger]

I had a chance to play Pine Tree recently and that is a flat Florida golf course where water is not a predominant feature - the fabulous green complexes are. 


As to Tommy original thoughts on this subject I believe it goes beyond water and extends to any hazard which does not give the option of a good recovery shot such as out of bounds.  My home courses are built in a housing community which was developed by someone who was not in the business and resulted in out of bounds on a high percentage of holes which can really ruin your round both score wise and psychologically.

[Steve Lang]

   Tommy,


Can't disagree with your feelings but I don't like watching endless recovery shots either.  As doctors are prone to say, "this may be a slight discomfort,"  which is code for this will hurt some... I guess you'll just have to grin and bear it for another weekend and then sort of enjoy the transition out of Florida via The Snake pit next week... 

So I keep the Florida Swing in perspective, its no different than many clubs' regular competitions, someone in the crowd is always going to be hot, the usual suspects or that lurker out of the pack... 


I like to just watch the day's highlights or try to catch the ending holes, but don't alter my day's tee time to accommodate..

Trust you'll survive or read some good book!  You won't have to endure it for another 11 months 


 
 

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,


I've seen these views countless times, and I must admit, I never tire of it.  Perhaps if I was lucky enough to live on the Monterey Peninsula, then maybe one day...but not yet.